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Thread: Raptors Year in Review: Tim Chisholm of TSN

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    Not sure where you are getting your take on the lack of success Lowry has had. He was the starting PG in 71 of 75 games in 2010-11 where HOU went 43-39 in the west with the 3rd best PPG (105.9) and the 4th best OffRtg (111.3) coached by a guy named Rick Adelman.... imagine that! In 2011-12, he was the starting PG when he went down with injury and the team was 21-19 and 21-17 in the games he started and played at that time. The team finished the year 13-15 with him either not starting or coming off the bench. Relative to the Raptors last 4 seasons that is nearly championship calibre.... and it was done with a mediocre supporting cast.
    When you talk about his time in Houston, the issue isn't lack of success, it's how he behaved. Specifically, when he came out and said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Either McChale goes or I go" http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/79...n-mchale-coach. He's a would be coach killer. That's a terrible thing to have on your resume.

    Now, I watched that incredible little stretch that he had at the beginning of the year, and I've watched him be very average since he came back from the injury. One way to explain the difference in the way he's played is what we've already read a million times: pre-injury, he was playing like himself, post-injury, he was forced into playing like Jose.

    But the entire post-injury run, I've always got the sense that he was holding back. Not holding back in the sense of "I can't make such-and-such a play because coach says I can't", but in the sense of "Fine coach, f*** you: you're not going to let me play my game? Then I'm going to give you the minimum effort required to do what you want me to do." Now, there's really no way for me to quantify this. I don't have any specific examples. It's just the general feeling that I've been getting.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    When you talk about his time in Houston, the issue isn't lack of success, it's how he behaved. Specifically, when he came out and said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Either McChale goes or I go" http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/79...n-mchale-coach. He's a would be coach killer. That's a terrible thing to have on your resume.

    Now, I watched that incredible little stretch that he had at the beginning of the year, and I've watched him be very average since he came back from the injury. One way to explain the difference in the way he's played is what we've already read a million times: pre-injury, he was playing like himself, post-injury, he was forced into playing like Jose.

    But the entire post-injury run, I've always got the sense that he was holding back. Not holding back in the sense of "I can't make such-and-such a play because coach says I can't", but in the sense of "Fine coach, f*** you: you're not going to let me play my game? Then I'm going to give you the minimum effort required to do what you want me to do." Now, there's really no way for me to quantify this. I don't have any specific examples. It's just the general feeling that I've been getting.
    I respectfully disagree your opinion but I do appreciate the fact you are not pawning it off as fact.... something I probably should attempt to do more often.
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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    I'm not biased against Lowry; he's just been not very good this year -- and close to the same his whole career. I actually like his style of play, too -- just not as a starting PG with THIS set of players expecting to run THIS kind of offense (which actually isn't based on isos, as some people seem to think. He doesn't work in this system, with these players.

    Look, if you want to keep Lowry, keep him. But then you need to change the system you're trying to run, and the other players you're running it with. Lowry, Derozan, and Gay is NOT a winning backcourt -- that's the basis of my opinion. Together, they won't be consistently effective, because their individual needs to do so are incompatible (volume shots, ISOs!, etc.). So spin it any way you want, I'm not biased against any single player.

    But I'm definitely not prepared to pin the blame on Casey, who was clearly responsible for last year's remarkable progression in terms of style of play and commitment to the plan. The coach didn't change, but the players did; it's irrational not to at least consider that maybe its the players who are more to blame for the regression in all areas this year. It's a pretty huge leap in logic to do that, and shows an unjustified bias against the coach.
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    ...But I'm definitely not prepared to pin the blame on Casey, who was clearly responsible for last year's remarkable progression in terms of style of play and commitment to the plan. The coach didn't change, but the players did; it's irrational not to at least consider that maybe its the players who are more to blame for the regression in all areas this year. It's a pretty huge leap in logic to do that, and shows an unjustified bias against the coach.
    Coach is the one who determines style of play. It's not five guys going out there and determining what they are going to do. They are following a script. If they don't they sit. Coach, plus five assistants, plus the video and analytics guys make decisions about how to deal with each team.

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I'm not biased against Lowry; he's just been not very good this year -- and close to the same his whole career. I actually like his style of play, too -- just not as a starting PG with THIS set of players expecting to run THIS kind of offense (which actually isn't based on isos, as some people seem to think. He doesn't work in this system, with these players.

    Look, if you want to keep Lowry, keep him. But then you need to change the system you're trying to run, and the other players you're running it with. Lowry, Derozan, and Gay is NOT a winning backcourt -- that's the basis of my opinion. Together, they won't be consistently effective, because their individual needs to do so are incompatible (volume shots, ISOs!, etc.). So spin it any way you want, I'm not biased against any single player.

    But I'm definitely not prepared to pin the blame on Casey, who was clearly responsible for last year's remarkable progression in terms of style of play and commitment to the plan. The coach didn't change, but the players did; it's irrational not to at least consider that maybe its the players who are more to blame for the regression in all areas this year. It's a pretty huge leap in logic to do that, and shows an unjustified bias against the coach.
    I'd have to disagree with you on this one ....

    I see Lowry as a lead guard who changes ends very well. He has the ability to rebound which is actually a plus because he facilitates transition opportunities. When you have that & 2 athletic wing players to run with, what you get is a myriad of fastbreak opportunities which makes the game a lot easier. I'm not 100% sure about this [simply based on myself watching every game], Lowry gets most of his assists in open court opportunities.

    If the Raptors choose to translate defensive stops (blocks, turnovers, rebounds) into transition opportunities, I see them having a lot of success because we have 2 very athletic finishers in Gay and DeRozan, an athletic floor runner in Amir & a point guard who thrives in a faster pace in Lowry.

    In terms of half court execution, I came to a realization that the mid-season trade threw off any sort of chemistry this team had leading up to the trade -- this includes the close games won soon after Rudy Gay came into the picture. I know this has been overplayed, but it really does take time to get accustomed to each other's tendencies & sweet spots. Looking at Miami's first season with the big three, majority of their half court sets simply involved LeBron James and Dwyane Wade taking turns isolating or running the screen and roll.

    As of late, Lowry has done a very good job of initiating the offense (because well, he gets to call them 40% of the time). Rudy and DeMar are developing some synergy on offense & Rudy has also taken a step back in quarterbacking his own shots. They are more capable of playing off each other & the ball is not sticking as much as a few weeks back. The success of this team will be dependent on DeRozan and Gay's abilities to knock down the three point shots. It will open lanes for the drive and kick game that Lowry really excels at.

    What I am seeing from Lowry is a vast improvement in establishing his presence on the court. His timing on his passes has gotten better, his usage of screens has gotten better, he pushes the ball more, he picks his spots driving and kicking. Overall, his impact on the court has gotten tremendously better -- and it comes with more trust from the coach. There is more freedom in our offense that plays to the strengths of DeMar, Lowry and Rudy altogether.

    Casey is a defensive coach & he will always preach defense -- and I admire that about him. I will say that his decision of handing Lowry the "keys" to the offense is one of the better decisions he has made thus far. The key to sustaining our defense is the synergy between the big guys. Valanciunas, for all the praises he has gotten for his offensive impact, needs to recognize rotations faster. To his credit, he has gotten better which has resulted in less fouls and more playing time. Amir Johnson's impact defensively is underrated too -- & Quincy Acy has impressed me as well.

    What triggered our defense is the shift away from the small ball -- thus, improving our rim protection & getting easier opportunities on offense. Rudy and DeMar are getting easier shots because the bulk of those shots come within the flow of the offense, instead of single handedly facilitating a shot in half court.

    I've rambled on about other things, but the point is, with Lowry gaining the coach's trust, he is dictating the pace of the game better, the flow of the shots are coming from drive and kick opportunities which has resulted in better & easier shots for DeRozan and Gay -- which is probably why their %'s have increased as of late.

    If Casey can show he can adapt his style of coaching, move a little bit away from the "structured" flex offense and hand his players more freedom -- AS LONG AS THEY PLAY THEIR BUTTS OFF ON DEFENSE, what we can expect is a more efficient output from this line-up.

    The bench is another story. But our first line-up can compete with the best of them. I can only assume that an off season of improvement & better chemistry that comes with training camp & more time together will only result in better basketball for the Toronto Raptors.
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    I agree. I'm actually happy with Lowry leading this starting lineup.

    What we do need to address:
    -a smart reliable backup PG
    -a defensive wing who can hit the 3 (ross, fields?)
    -another center that could backup or start

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    Raptors Republic Rookie JackfromNZ's Avatar
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    I am satisfied with Lowry being our starting PG. I see us sticking with the core of Lowry-Derozan-Gay-Amir-JV with Ross and Fields being the wings off the bench and I think BC will go after Livingston or Maynor if FA for the backup PG and have JL3 being a 3rd stringer. I think if next season is a failure as in we don't make the playoffs or get bounced easily in the first round then I would not be surpised if BC gets the boot and the new GM comes in and trades trades away everyone other than JV and tries to go after Wiggins or a high lottery draft pick. But to answer the question I am happy with Lowry and Derozan at the 1-2 next year and Hopefully we get Livingston or a pass first pg like that and Ross develops more consistency or Fields regains his jumpshot from his rookie season.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    I'd have to disagree with you on this one ....

    I see Lowry as a lead guard who changes ends very well. He has the ability to rebound which is actually a plus because he facilitates transition opportunities. When you have that & 2 athletic wing players to run with, what you get is a myriad of fastbreak opportunities which makes the game a lot easier. I'm not 100% sure about this [simply based on myself watching every game], Lowry gets most of his assists in open court opportunities.

    If the Raptors choose to translate defensive stops (blocks, turnovers, rebounds) into transition opportunities, I see them having a lot of success because we have 2 very athletic finishers in Gay and DeRozan, an athletic floor runner in Amir & a point guard who thrives in a faster pace in Lowry.

    In terms of half court execution, I came to a realization that the mid-season trade threw off any sort of chemistry this team had leading up to the trade -- this includes the close games won soon after Rudy Gay came into the picture. I know this has been overplayed, but it really does take time to get accustomed to each other's tendencies & sweet spots. Looking at Miami's first season with the big three, majority of their half court sets simply involved LeBron James and Dwyane Wade taking turns isolating or running the screen and roll.

    As of late, Lowry has done a very good job of initiating the offense (because well, he gets to call them 40% of the time). Rudy and DeMar are developing some synergy on offense & Rudy has also taken a step back in quarterbacking his own shots. They are more capable of playing off each other & the ball is not sticking as much as a few weeks back. The success of this team will be dependent on DeRozan and Gay's abilities to knock down the three point shots. It will open lanes for the drive and kick game that Lowry really excels at.

    What I am seeing from Lowry is a vast improvement in establishing his presence on the court. His timing on his passes has gotten better, his usage of screens has gotten better, he pushes the ball more, he picks his spots driving and kicking. Overall, his impact on the court has gotten tremendously better -- and it comes with more trust from the coach. There is more freedom in our offense that plays to the strengths of DeMar, Lowry and Rudy altogether.

    Casey is a defensive coach & he will always preach defense -- and I admire that about him. I will say that his decision of handing Lowry the "keys" to the offense is one of the better decisions he has made thus far. The key to sustaining our defense is the synergy between the big guys. Valanciunas, for all the praises he has gotten for his offensive impact, needs to recognize rotations faster. To his credit, he has gotten better which has resulted in less fouls and more playing time. Amir Johnson's impact defensively is underrated too -- & Quincy Acy has impressed me as well.

    What triggered our defense is the shift away from the small ball -- thus, improving our rim protection & getting easier opportunities on offense. Rudy and DeMar are getting easier shots because the bulk of those shots come within the flow of the offense, instead of single handedly facilitating a shot in half court.

    I've rambled on about other things, but the point is, with Lowry gaining the coach's trust, he is dictating the pace of the game better, the flow of the shots are coming from drive and kick opportunities which has resulted in better & easier shots for DeRozan and Gay -- which is probably why their %'s have increased as of late.

    If Casey can show he can adapt his style of coaching, move a little bit away from the "structured" flex offense and hand his players more freedom -- AS LONG AS THEY PLAY THEIR BUTTS OFF ON DEFENSE, what we can expect is a more efficient output from this line-up.

    The bench is another story. But our first line-up can compete with the best of them. I can only assume that an off season of improvement & better chemistry that comes with training camp & more time together will only result in better basketball for the Toronto Raptors.
    Agreed with everything you said, I have sort of the same train of thought and process you are seeing from the team. It's kind of what I've been saying all along.

    Allowing Lowry to really quicken the pace, and facilitate via penetration is the best way for this team to get good looks offensively, & defense helps to acquire these opportunities.

    Good post Torch.

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    Just wanted to throw my name into the trade-demar hat. One point that nobody seems to have made (or that i just missed) is that the raps have a chance to evolve a much more balanced offence with valanciunas in the low post, but the derozan-gay combo ruins any potential of proper spacing. Something has to give there.

    If im colangelo my first off-season call is to orlando to see if a derozan for afflalo+sweetener deal can be worked out. Theres so much to be gained from swapping derozan for a guy who knows his role, only takes good shots and plays defense. Its hard to jusrify trading away the player who will likely be best in the long run, but this might be a case of addition by subtraction.

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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Just wanted to throw my name into the trade-demar hat. One point that nobody seems to have made (or that i just missed) is that the raps have a chance to evolve a much more balanced offence with valanciunas in the low post, but the derozan-gay combo ruins any potential of proper spacing. Something has to give there.

    If im colangelo my first off-season call is to orlando to see if a derozan for afflalo+sweetener deal can be worked out. Theres so much to be gained from swapping derozan for a guy who knows his role, only takes good shots and plays defense. Its hard to jusrify trading away the player who will likely be best in the long run, but this might be a case of addition by subtraction.
    I had Afflalo on my fantasy team this year & I can assure you, he is not efficient by any means. But it could have been caused by his increased role in the offense. He does have the reputation of being an above average to really good defender.
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Just wanted to throw my name into the trade-demar hat. One point that nobody seems to have made (or that i just missed) is that the raps have a chance to evolve a much more balanced offence with valanciunas in the low post, but the derozan-gay combo ruins any potential of proper spacing. Something has to give there.

    If im colangelo my first off-season call is to orlando to see if a derozan for afflalo+sweetener deal can be worked out. Theres so much to be gained from swapping derozan for a guy who knows his role, only takes good shots and plays defense. Its hard to jusrify trading away the player who will likely be best in the long run, but this might be a case of addition by subtraction.
    Just a disclaimer that I'm someone who's not keen on trading Demar...but for the fun of discussion.

    Not just because he's Canuck, but Nicholson I think would be interesting if he's the additional piece. Decent height and length, a nice set of offensive moves. Could develop him as the PF off the bench, a role he currently seems well-suited to.

    It is, of course, also pointless if they get a better, experienced PF. But if the big rotation stays the same, more or less, I think Nicholson would be the only piece I'd really want (that Orlando might give up) to add to that deal.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I don't want to join the debate of Lowry (good) vs Lowry (bad) -- I am still waiting to see the good and hopefully next year, clear of the excuses people have made for him this year, I'll get to see this almost-all-star point guard that I've heard so much about.

    But I do think that given the cap and roster situation we're in, we have an opportunity here to trade DeRozan even before he starts his ridiculously overpaid contract due to the improvements he's made from one year to the next. His hardworking mentality and the minor tweaks in game should be enough to sell him to another team that believes all the other holes in his game can and will be filled.
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    The problem with Lowry this season is, as has been said by many, that he's been asked to pass, rather than create. Passing for passing's sake is not good offense. Give Lowry some degree of freedom on offense and he becomes that wrecking-ball type of drive and kick player we expected.

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  16. #34
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Default Raptors Year-in-Review: Wings

    Building on the discussion about the Raptors guards, here is Tim Chisholm's article about the Raptors wings. Obviously there's some overlap between the two, with the SG position being both a wing and a guard...

    LINK: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=420929

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    I enjoyed Chisholm's analysis about the guards, but I think his analysis of the wings is even more spot on. There were a few parts that really stood out to me:

    Here's the thing with Fields: he's a great fit for this club. He's the only wing that knows how to set up his teammates, he restricts himself to smart shots within his range (he easily possesses the highest field goal percentage of Toronto's wings at 46 per cent), he understands the team's defensive concepts and he doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective.
    If these two (Gay & DeRozan) are going to continue to represent the bulk of Toronto's minutes on the wings then they have got to learn some shot discipline. Since the trade that brought Gay to Toronto, he and DeRozan rank 127th as a pair in offensive efficiency at 101.3 points per 100 possessions, which is below the team's mark of 102.5 points per 100 possessions (though it's above the team's pathetic 100.9 points per 100 possessions overall since the trade). To watch the Raptors play these days is to watch a handful of possessions every game devolve into a broken set resulting in Gay or DeRozan forcing up a jumper against two or three defenders several feet from the basket.
    It's not often an NBA organization builds their offence around two non-playmaking wings that both shoot below 32 per cent from three-point range

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    This is kind of why I reacted to his PG article the way I did. It's hard to evaluate a roster position-by-position, because what you have in one position dramatically affects the others. I agree with all of this. I'm still struggling to see how Lowry, Gay and Derozan can co-exist and make this team successful. And I'm usually one of the more optimistic folks around here.

    What it takes for each of them to be optimally effective takes away from what makes the others optimally effective. Again, there's no way to coach around this. One or more of them will have to change their game and subvert some of "getting mine" for the good of the team.

    Definitely some serious roster decisions to make this summer and leading up to next season's trade deadline. All three have their strong points and arguments for keeping as well as drawbacks and rationale for moving out.

    Fields is the biggest wild card of all for next year, to me. If he can rebound close to his rookie numbers, he's starter material for the reasons Chisolm notes: unlike Demar/Gay, he doesn't need the ball to be effective; he can distribute as well as many PGs, and he has a great bball IQ. If he plays to potential, it will make it a lot easier to fix that starting lineup, and to then figure out how to best use Derozan and Gay as assets.

    Regarding the perimeter guys in general, if they can't find a way to make it work and show significant progression early on, the writing is on the wall for the future of both Gay and Lowry in Toronto. You simply cannot extend Lowry at the money he'll be asking -- and you definitely can't re-sign a 28yo Gay -- if the results are anywhere near this year's. And that's regardless of whether Derozan is traded.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Regarding the perimeter guys in general, if they can't find a way to make it work and show significant progression early on, the writing is on the wall for the future of both Gay and Lowry in Toronto. You simply cannot extend Lowry at the money he'll be asking -- and you definitely can't re-sign a 28yo Gay -- if the results are anywhere near this year's. And that's regardless of whether Derozan is traded.
    You're forgetting who the GM is.

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    Clearly Lowry has been asked to do something that doesn't come naturally to him. It he's allowed to play his natural game, he will be better and therefore his numbers. That being said, I sense the Bargnani situation brewing all over again. I mean hanging on to a player for what he can "potentially" do rather than what he's doing. So, before committing to a long term extension, I think Raptors must think to ensure they're not making a mistake. Going by experience(Bargnani), it may be wise to trade him when he still has value(6.3 mil. expiring contract).
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    I wonder if people had the same discussions over Stephon Marbury in his early years when others were criticizing how he wasn't passing the ball. Seems to me the only difference between these two guys is that Marbury never listened.

    If you compare careers (Marbury's first 7 seasons) to Lowry's they are pretty much the same except Marbury was slightly better. I did a comparison on theNBAgeek.com's tool and Marbury was above the average PG, similar to Lowry, in terms of shooting efficiency.
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    You're forgetting who the GM is.
    No, just hoping he won't be here. I hesitate to say I'd be "surprised" if he's still here, but I sure hope ownership's patience has run out.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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