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Thread: Raptors Year in Review: Tim Chisholm of TSN

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    This is kind of why I reacted to his PG article the way I did. It's hard to evaluate a roster position-by-position, because what you have in one position dramatically affects the others. I agree with all of this. I'm still struggling to see how Lowry, Gay and Derozan can co-exist and make this team successful. And I'm usually one of the more optimistic folks around here.

    What it takes for each of them to be optimally effective takes away from what makes the others optimally effective. Again, there's no way to coach around this. One or more of them will have to change their game and subvert some of "getting mine" for the good of the team.

    Definitely some serious roster decisions to make this summer and leading up to next season's trade deadline. All three have their strong points and arguments for keeping as well as drawbacks and rationale for moving out.

    Fields is the biggest wild card of all for next year, to me. If he can rebound close to his rookie numbers, he's starter material for the reasons Chisolm notes: unlike Demar/Gay, he doesn't need the ball to be effective; he can distribute as well as many PGs, and he has a great bball IQ. If he plays to potential, it will make it a lot easier to fix that starting lineup, and to then figure out how to best use Derozan and Gay as assets.

    Regarding the perimeter guys in general, if they can't find a way to make it work and show significant progression early on, the writing is on the wall for the future of both Gay and Lowry in Toronto. You simply cannot extend Lowry at the money he'll be asking -- and you definitely can't re-sign a 28yo Gay -- if the results are anywhere near this year's. And that's regardless of whether Derozan is traded.
    I agree with what you are saying if the Raptors continue to play the game as Casey has been coaching/running things. Lowry at his best does not mesh well with DeRozan and Gay in that system.

    With that said, I see two options:

    1) Keep running things the same as they have been (set plays for jumps shots and ISOs) neutralizing Lowry's positives,

    2) Change the way the team plays on offense (i.e. more ball movement and off ball movement combined with more freedom for Lowry to punch and kick) and playing to Lowry's strengths,


    If they go 1) then one of Gay or DD likely needs to go unless they can start hitting 3 pointers curling off screens or off pull ups in ISO.

    If they go 2) then one of Gay or DD likely needs to go unless they can start hitting 3's in catch and shoot situations.

    Personally, I like 2) much better for everyone. I don't think DD and Gay have any chance of making 3's in the situations the offense currently places them in. I don't think the chances are high of them hitting 3s consistently in catch and shoot situations but it is better than coming off screens or pull ups in ISO.


    Everyone in the NBA is talented. The job of the NBA coach is to maximize his talent. I think taking the shackles off Lowry and showing faith and trust in him is the only way to figure out what the Raptors have in him and for the Raptors to succeed to the best of their ability. In doing that I guarantee you get a happier Lowry who is likely to totally listen and buy in to the other side of the ball (making the assumption he has not, as many here have). I am not implying this is right. But think about any profession where people are asked to do things outside their comfort zone - they get their back up, it is human nature for the majority.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Having people to pass to also helps Marbury got axed when he was on an awful Knicks team he was the guy. Lowry is in a position where he can feed the ball to 2 good friends of his, he is going to work on distributing. His numbers ending the season are pretty good getting Calderon ast numbers over his last 12 games?

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree with what you are saying if the Raptors continue to play the game as Casey has been coaching/running things. Lowry at his best does not mesh well with DeRozan and Gay in that system.

    With that said, I see two options:

    1) Keep running things the same as they have been (set plays for jumps shots and ISOs) neutralizing Lowry's positives,

    2) Change the way the team plays on offense (i.e. more ball movement and off ball movement combined with more freedom for Lowry to punch and kick) and playing to Lowry's strengths,


    If they go 1) then one of Gay or DD likely needs to go unless they can start hitting 3 pointers curling off screens or off pull ups in ISO.

    If they go 2) then one of Gay or DD likely needs to go unless they can start hitting 3's in catch and shoot situations.

    Personally, I like 2) much better for everyone. I don't think DD and Gay have any chance of making 3's in the situations the offense currently places them in. I don't think the chances are high of them hitting 3s consistently in catch and shoot situations but it is better than coming off screens or pull ups in ISO.


    Everyone in the NBA is talented. The job of the NBA coach is to maximize his talent. I think taking the shackles off Lowry and showing faith and trust in him is the only way to figure out what the Raptors have in him and for the Raptors to succeed to the best of their ability. In doing that I guarantee you get a happier Lowry who is likely to totally listen and buy in to the other side of the ball (making the assumption he has not, as many here have). I am not implying this is right. But think about any profession where people are asked to do things outside their comfort zone - they get their back up, it is human nature for the majority.
    OK, fine. But I'm not sure that bending over backwards for the guy currently making the least salary of this current "big 3" is the way to go, or the way management will see fit to go, given how much $$$ they've committed to the other two guys. It makes sense if you think Lowry is the most likely "keeper" of the three -- ie, the one most likely to bring the most return in terms of making this team better in the long run -- but only then. I haven't personally seen enough success in the past when Lowry is playing "shackle-free" to warrant that viewpoint. Minor success in Houston, especially when coupled with the 'attitude problems', isn't enough for me, personally.

    And I've said it before, but will throw it out there one more time: How sure are you that the offense you see on the floor is the one that has been designed by Casey? How sure are you that the iso's you see, then one-on-one play, the late-clock shots, etc. are not actually by design, but rather a by-product of the 'designed' offense bogging down due to players not being able (or willing) to execute it?

    Bottom line: If Lowry plays his game, Derozan and Gay can't play theirs (as effectively as the team needs). IMO, long-term, you will have to choose who you want to run with long-term. Ride with Lowry, you need to bring in guys around him who can defer to his style, not need volume shots or have the ball in their hands to make plays, and can still be effective (elite spot-up shooters, or guys like Fields). Ride with Gay and/or Derozan, you need a PG who is more dedicated to distributing the ball to those volume shooters than to being a scorer himself.

    I don't think it can work both ways unless one side of that equation can change to fit the other side of the equation.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    OK, fine. But I'm not sure that bending over backwards for the guy currently making the least salary of this current "big 3" is the way to go, or the way management will see fit to go, given how much $$$ they've committed to the other two guys. It makes sense if you think Lowry is the most likely "keeper" of the three -- ie, the one most likely to bring the most return in terms of making this team better in the long run -- but only then. I haven't personally seen enough success in the past when Lowry is playing "shackle-free" to warrant that viewpoint. Minor success in Houston, especially when coupled with the 'attitude problems', isn't enough for me, personally.

    And I've said it before, but will throw it out there one more time: How sure are you that the offense you see on the floor is the one that has been designed by Casey? How sure are you that the iso's you see, then one-on-one play, the late-clock shots, etc. are not actually by design, but rather a by-product of the 'designed' offense bogging down due to players not being able (or willing) to execute it?

    Bottom line: If Lowry plays his game, Derozan and Gay can't play theirs (as effectively as the team needs). IMO, long-term, you will have to choose who you want to run with long-term. Ride with Lowry, you need to bring in guys around him who can defer to his style, not need volume shots or have the ball in their hands to make plays, and can still be effective (elite spot-up shooters, or guys like Fields). Ride with Gay and/or Derozan, you need a PG who is more dedicated to distributing the ball to those volume shooters than to being a scorer himself.

    I don't think it can work both ways unless one side of that equation can change to fit the other side of the equation.
    It doesn't matter if Lowry is running the point or Jose stayed: the Raptors offense as currently run under Casey is dreadful. Since the trade, it has only become worse. Set plays for 21ft plus jumpers is what Casey runs. It is dreadful. Casey plays east-west and unless you have Ray Allen and JJ Redick running off screens, the three ball is non-existent and a horrible shot for the majority of players in the league - let alone Toronto.

    Bold: Then Casey should be fired if that is the case. If that is true then he lost the locker room and needs to go because he did not hold one player responsible. If that is true, it is not just the "new" guys, DeRozan would be equally guilty.

    Bottom line: If DD and Gay don't develop catch and shoot ability from deep then one of them need to go regardless of who is running the point.


    You know all I am advocating for Toronto to run with Lowry is more dribble penetration and have more off ball movement rather than run set plays for 21 ft jump shots.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    OK, fine. But I'm not sure that bending over backwards for the guy currently making the least salary of this current "big 3" is the way to go, or the way management will see fit to go, given how much $$$ they've committed to the other two guys. It makes sense if you think Lowry is the most likely "keeper" of the three -- ie, the one most likely to bring the most return in terms of making this team better in the long run -- but only then. I haven't personally seen enough success in the past when Lowry is playing "shackle-free" to warrant that viewpoint. Minor success in Houston, especially when coupled with the 'attitude problems', isn't enough for me, personally.
    I agree. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Lowry. Tell me if this sounds familiar:

    - there's a player on your team that cost the team an early lottery pick
    - the player has shown flashes of being very good over the past 7 seasons but hasn't been able to put it all together
    - has been asked to play his position differently than what his skill-set would point to
    - he doesn't necessarily exhibit the strengths of what you would normally expect from the position he plays, although he is very good at some other things

    In the past we've had a player such as this and tried to accommodate by changing the roster to make up for his weaknesses, and it didn't exactly pan out. Now I'm not advocating getting rid of him like I do with Andrea, but I don't understand the fixation of trying to do so much in order to help Lowry succeed.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I agree. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Lowry. Tell me if this sounds familiar:

    - there's a player on your team that cost the team an early lottery pick
    - the player has shown flashes of being very good over the past 7 seasons but hasn't been able to put it all together
    - has been asked to play his position differently than what his skill-set would point to
    - he doesn't necessarily exhibit the strengths of what you would normally expect from the position he plays, although he is very good at some other things

    In the past we've had a player such as this and tried to accommodate by changing the roster to make up for his weaknesses, and it didn't exactly pan out. Now I'm not advocating getting rid of him like I do with Andrea, but I don't understand the fixation of trying to do so much in order to help Lowry succeed.
    How much offensive success is Toronto having playing "the right way" since the Gay trade? How much offensive success did Toronto have last season? If we were talking about an offensive system that is potent, well, maybe I'd be in agreement. But the offensive system Casey is pushing and trying to get Lowry to conform to is awful.... period. A system relying on set plays for 21 foot plus jump shots is not going to yield success regardless of your roster. Two different point guards with totally different styles have proven this: Calderon last season and Lowry this season.

    Comparison to Bargnani is not a good one. Lowry has a history of good play with 2 different coaches playing a style different than what was asked of him in Toronto. Plus, when Lowry plays you at least know he cares - how he channels it is debatable but he does care.

    I think Raptors fans have become accustomed to players with little to no talent needing to be spoon fed in order to produce all the while possessing passive personalities.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    I actually saw improvement from Lowry as the season went on. He now knows his role. He is the point guard. There will be a time that he will be able to "get his" BUT in the meantime he should be working on passing to Demar, Gay, Valenciunas and Amir.

    To me - Lowry looks comfortable being a pass first point guard over the past few weeks. I disagree with MANY here who seem to think that he cannot thrive in his current situation. If Lowry can settle in and find plays for others in our starting lineup - this will leave a ton of room for him to pick his spots when being aggressive. Also, we shouldnt need Lowry to be a Hero (Bargs is not here and Fields is no longer starting - those two played HORRIBLE at the begginning of the season).

    I disagree with trading Demar until we see how his 3 point shot and defence improves next season (I already see improvement over the past few games). He can definately make that shot, he just needs to have more confidence and be consistant in his release. I'm very intrigued by the Rudy Gay and Demar combination on the wings. When they get going they are almost impossible to stop.

    Again, I DO NOT want Bryan C making anymore decisions when it comes to this team. I'm fine with a NEW GM coming in and evaluating the players and making changes if need be.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    No, just hoping he won't be here. I hesitate to say I'd be "surprised" if he's still here, but I sure hope ownership's patience has run out.
    He's too smooth a talker.....owners will lap up his 'knowledge". I fully expect him to be given a one year extension.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    For me I think it's not so much a question of whether the offense needs improvement or not. It's beyond obvious that it needs improvement. It's when the conversation is geared towards building around a talent that I think is overrated that bothers me. This really comes down to how good you think Lowry is versus how good he really is.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  10. #50
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Default Raptors Year-in-Review: Bigs

    Building on the discussion about the Raptors guards and wings, here is Tim Chisholm's article about the Raptors bigs.

    LINK: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=421005


    I think this category has the least amount of debate, as even the most loyal Bargnani supporter has to admit that the time has come for Bargnani's time in Toronto to end. The one question that still remains (and has already been debated in several RR threads), is whether or not Johnson will be the starting PF or 3rd big next season; obviously that decision could potentially have domino-effect impact on other players/positions.

  11. #51
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Default Raptors Year in Review: Tim Chisholm of TSN

    a

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    If we're looking to improve the second unit, it will depend on what kind of deal and the assets returning on a Bargnani deal, because - as most point out to - the returning asset should/wanted is a power forward. Meaning Amir returns to the second unit, significantly making it stronger. Not to mention, the internal improvements of Ross and Acy going forward is extremely important.

    I don't think there's any REAL great trade where Derozan/Ross can net fair or equal value.

    I say keep all our wings, any trade that should be happening in the off-season includes only Bargnani, Lucas, Kleiza (if not amnestied) and available picks (most are second rounders).

    MLE used on the veteran wing shooter/defender, and consistent back-up like Ridnour.

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    To the team system issues, I think Casey should have just stuck with:

    "Defend, force turnovers, rebound and THAN we can get our run out opportunities."

    He emphasized the offense far more than defense this season, assuming that the previous season's defensive mentaility would be there. Quite frankly, many will say continuity is the problem with the regression, but I disagree, it's the coaching staff being inconsistent in their approach.

    The offense in the last two months looks really good in my opinion, because Casey's allowed freedom/drive-&-kick with Lowry, and sticking Rudy and Demar in their favourite sides of the court, Rudy on the right, Demar on the left.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    If Brooklyn doesnt retain Cj Watson Raps have to go after him.

    Jeff Teague
    Cj Watson
    Luke Ridnour
    JJ Barea
    Devin Harris
    Kirk Hinrich
    Nate Robinson
    Darren Collison
    D.J Augustine
    Chauncy Billups
    Eric Maynor

    good list of PG the Raptors should be looking at.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    If Brooklyn doesnt retain Cj Watson Raps have to go after him.

    Jeff Teague
    Cj Watson
    Luke Ridnour
    JJ Barea
    Devin Harris
    Kirk Hinrich
    Nate Robinson
    Darren Collison
    D.J Augustine
    Chauncy Billups
    Eric Maynor

    good list of PG the Raptors should be looking at.
    Jeff Teague: Not happening, staying in Atlanta (most likely).
    Cj Watson: I think this would be a great pick-up, and I think he would be worth maybe half the MLE.
    Luke Ridnour: I'd definitely like Ridnour.
    JJ Barea: Inconsistent, score first, and terrible defender. No thanks.
    Devin Harris: I would say yes, but at the same time no. If the Raptors sign him, I wouldn't be upset.
    Kirk Hinrich: Yes, and yes.
    Nate Robinson: Eh, maybe.
    Darren Collison: Nope.
    D.J Augustine: Ew, nope.
    Chauncy Billups: Depending on what he'd sign for, I think he would fit all our issues; back-up PG, veteran, shooter.
    Eric Maynor: As a last resort, sure.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Seriously I had no idea a talented guy like CJ played for so little hes solid and thats what you need from a guard making just a mil when he is worth at least 2 mil a season.

    List is here:
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/2013-nba-free-agents

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Seriously I had no idea a talented guy like CJ played for so little hes solid and thats what you need from a guard making just a mil when he is worth at least 2 mil a season.

    List is here:
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/2013-nba-free-agents
    It's likely because he signed with a market than wasn't necessarily looking into his services, or hard pressed to gain them, so the player takes less. Not to mention the player playing the majority amount of minutes/position is much better, meaning the player behind or being signed has significantly less value.

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    Had Watson signed for a team like the Bobcats, Raptors, Wizards, I wouldn't be surprised if his salary was much higher; near $3-$4 million in a year.

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    If Chauncey Billups can be had...we take him, for anything up to and including the MLE

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