View Poll Results: Jonas for Harden? Would you?

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Thread: Bill Simmons: NBA Trade Value

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I don't know....there's obviously one issue in terms of ceiling of each player. I, and I'm sure many others, are just really big on JV's ceiling, and given the type of kid he is, don't think he'll struggle to get there.

    Then I think there's a wholly different issue about team-building, and this notion as posited by Simmons as being the good way to build a team. The problem with that is that well run teams don't follow that model. Teams like OKC and San Antonio hang on to their young, high potential assets often for as long as they can.

    And this brings me to my biggest issue....I feel like a lot of the people, using the same rationale, would've been the type to trade Harden away for Perkins when that happened for OKC. At the time you have one of the best defensive Cs in the game for a young SG coming off a very average rookie year. The former would fill a great need, and the latter hadn't yet proved to be that missing piece or an all-star player.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    I think most of this has been hit . but since Im late to the party, Ill summarize.

    Not only was Harden not all-NBA type talent, he wasnt an all star and by no stretch of the imagination had shown that he could be the best player on a championship team (in fact, he still hasnt shown that). Any suggestions to the contrary are flat out false.
    He had shown that he could be a very good player on a very good team .. but with two players (arguably 3 if you include the defensive impact of Ibaka) who were more impactful to their teams success. Yes, Harden had some good playoff performances (but some dissappearances as well).
    As many people have pointed out .. this trade was a big GAMBLE. At the time, I thought it was a bad trade for Houston. In hindsight, obviously it looks like a great trade. But, it was very, very far from a certainty at the time.
    By the same token .. would I make a trade for JV/Ross/Jose/Ed and maybe another pick for Harden (thats what it would have taken, as people have pointed out)? Maybe now (although its giving up a LOT) .. but at the time? I dont think so.

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  4. #63
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    From many statistical stand points he was already a franchise calibre player just stuck playing behind 2 (or atleast one) other franchise calibre players - so I imagine Morey didn't feel it was much of a gamble at all.

    I'm not sure how I would have felt about the trade (had it happened) at the time myself. But I don't know how one can argue the 'unkowns' around Harden was a reason to not to make a trade given he'd atleast played 3 years of NBA ball while Jonas played none. If something being unknown or uncertain was a rational, trading Jonas should have been a given.
    The unknown being exactly what you stated: He was playing behind 2 other franchise caliber players. You can draw the comparison to Bosh, who's putting up lesser numbers behind 2 franchise caliber players. If he was the number one option, as he was in Toronto, how far would his team go? Well, then where's the guarantee in throwing max money at Harden?

    The statistics, at the time, were heavily reliant on playing with two players that commanded attention. Houston has 0 players that commanded attention, and neither did Toronto. So how can you say there are no unknowns?

    P.S. Yes, Jonas had played 0 NBA games. I made that point in another comment, not this thread. But it basically turns into [5th lottery pick PLUS other assets] for [6th man of the year]. To be clear, I would have done the trade, but the decision is not so clear-cut as some people are making it out to be.

  5. #64
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The bold is ludicrous. JV just put up better numbers than Hibberts 2nd year in the league and Hibbert was 4 years older at the time. Then you factor in JV coming from a country where their religion is basketball.
    I struggled for a comp on Jonas. I wanted a low post big man with potential DPOY, and chose Hibbert off top of head.

    But I believe youre wrong to call the comp "ludicrous". In terms of Jonas' ceiling, I think with it's a few all star appearances, blossoming into a positional genius/defensive wrecking machine, a must double team down low, with the added element of being a devastating roller in the PNR. Other than the PNR part, that is where Hibbert's at right now. That was my line of thinking with the comp. Hibbert's a DPOY candidate and all star... Jonas' best case scenario/ceiling isn't beyond that. Jonas isn't going into Shaq/Timmy/KG territory.

  6. #65
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    P.S. Yes, Jonas had played 0 NBA games. I made that point in another comment, not this thread. But it basically turns into [5th lottery pick PLUS other assets] for [6th man of the year]. To be clear, I would have done the trade, but the decision is not so clear-cut as some people are making it out to be.
    Admittedly I am making it seem a little more clear cut than the reality. My overreaction is based on 2 factors that I can't wrap my head around:

    1) 24 people (and counting!) say dont do the trade, thats an overwhelming majority. These are the same fans that bitch about not attracting top tier stars to toronto/canada. It's the coming to fruition of a mind-numbing, self-fulfilling inferiority complex

    2) BC hung up on OKC when they inquired. Not even a follow up question. That's a fireable offence.

  7. #66
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    1) 24 people (and counting!) say dont do the trade, thats an overwhelming majority. These are the same fans that bitch about not attracting top tier stars to toronto/canada. It's the coming to fruition of a mind-numbing, self-fulfilling inferiority complex
    These are the same people? Got anything to back that up?

  8. #67
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Admittedly I am making it seem a little more clear cut than the reality. My overreaction is based on 2 factors that I can't wrap my head around:

    1) 24 people (and counting!) say dont do the trade, thats an overwhelming majority. These are the same fans that bitch about not attracting top tier stars to toronto/canada. It's the coming to fruition of a mind-numbing, self-fulfilling inferiority complex

    2) BC hung up on OKC when they inquired. Not even a follow up question. That's a fireable offence.
    On the bold. Who says this happened? The story says Presti got rebuffed quickly when asking about JV. That doesn't mean Bryan didn't quickly say "no way in hell on JV. would you be interested in x, y or z?", and Presti wasn't so talks ended.

  9. #68
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    These are the same people? Got anything to back that up?
    We both know there's a very common refrain among raps fans that american stars dont want to play for our team for non-basketball reasons (with the implication that this is somehow wrong or unfair).

    Given the emphatic majority in the poll in this thread, it's reasonable to assume a rather significant overlap.

    If you'd like to reasonably challenge these statements, please do so. The post I've quoted added nothing to the discussion.

  10. #69
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    We both know there's a very common refrain among raps fans that american stars dont want to play for our team for non-basketball reasons (with the implication that this is somehow wrong or unfair).

    Given the emphatic majority in the poll in this thread, it's reasonable to assume a rather significant overlap.

    If you'd like to reasonably challenge these statements, please do so. The post I've quoted added nothing to the discussion.
    I don't think it's necessary to reasonably challenge an unreasonable argument.

  11. #70
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    On the bold. Who says this happened? The story says Presti got rebuffed quickly when asking about JV. That doesn't mean Bryan didn't quickly say "no way in hell on JV. would you be interested in x, y or z?", and Presti wasn't so talks ended.
    Good point. I made the leap to "hung up" based on Simmons' phrasing. I still think it's ridiculous to take the centrepiece of a potential franchise shifting trade off the table without significant internal deliberation. Again, perhaps those discussions did take place, but Simmons' presentation suggests the opposite, and BC hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt based on track record.

  12. #71
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    These are the same people? Got anything to back that up?
    Translation: Oh ya, well how do you know??

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I don't think it's necessary to reasonably challenge an unreasonable argument.
    Translation: I dont have a counterpoint beyond my first reply, so I'm withdrawing.



    I think you can do better my friend.

  13. #72
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Good point. I made the leap to "hung up" based on Simmons' phrasing. I still think it's ridiculous to take the centrepiece of a potential franchise shifting trade off the table without significant internal deliberation. Again, perhaps those discussions did take place, but Simmons' presentation suggests the opposite, and BC hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt based on track record.
    Yeah, because Simmons is not prone to any hyperbole...

    If I had to take a hunch, just for fun, BC was not willing to give up enough assets.
    -First off, no deal would've been just for JV. If you look at what OKC got, beyond Martin and Lamb, they got 3 draft picks (2 1st rders)
    -Maybe Demar and Ross would've been enough talent-wise, but maybe he didn't want to give up both? Although I think he would've. My guess here is if he was giving up Ross, he didn't want to give up 2-3 draft picks as well.
    -And also Houston took back some garbage for them too, as well as Martin supplying big time cap relief. More than Jose would have, the only piece of that sort Toronto had. Maybe Toronto couldn't offer as many "pros" as Houston, even if they had the best piece to start a deal with. They didn't have the desire to take back Cole Aldrich, Lazar Hayward and Daequan Cook.

    ....So...
    -OKC traded 4 for 2...creating roster flexibility.
    -Houston gave them massive cap relief.
    -Houston gave them 2 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder.
    -Talent-wise for OKC, it's pretty similar for the one year Martin is around.

    -My best guess for the JV centred deal is that it was probably Jose + JV + Ross + a 1st rd pick for the same crap they sent to Houston. They would've wanted to clear some money, get a young asset to replace Harden for the future, get at least a shooter to play with Durant and Westbrook on the floor (something Jose could do), and take only one 1st rd pick instead of Houston's 2 because of JV's addition to the deal. Am I making shit up completely? Yes. But again, looking at the actual trade that happened, it's clear that OKC was looking for a lot more than one prospect back.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Apr 20th, 2013 at 02:52 PM.

  14. #73
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yeah, because Simmons is not prone to any hyperbole...
    lol, you got me there.

  15. #74
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I struggled for a comp on Jonas. I wanted a low post big man with potential DPOY, and chose Hibbert off top of head.

    But I believe youre wrong to call the comp "ludicrous". In terms of Jonas' ceiling, I think with it's a few all star appearances, blossoming into a positional genius/defensive wrecking machine, a must double team down low, with the added element of being a devastating roller in the PNR. Other than the PNR part, that is where Hibbert's at right now. That was my line of thinking with the comp. Hibbert's a DPOY candidate and all star... Jonas' best case scenario/ceiling isn't beyond that. Jonas isn't going into Shaq/Timmy/KG territory.

    Hibbert is a former all-star who averaged 12pts on 44.8% shooting with 11 field goal attempts per game, 8rebs, and 2.6blks per game in 28.9mpg in his fifth year in the league at 26 years of age.


    Valanciuanas is a rookie who averaged 8.9pts on 55.7% shooting with 6 field goal attempts per game, 6rebs, and 1.3blks per game in 23.9mpg in his first year in the league at 20 years of age.



    I'm not ready to put Jonas in Shaq/Timmy/KG territory but I am definitely not ready to limit his ceiling to Roy Hibbert.
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  16. #75
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Hibbert is a former all-star who averaged 12pts on 44.8% shooting with 11 field goal attempts per game, 8rebs, and 2.6blks per game in 28.9mpg in his fifth year in the league at 26 years of age.

    Valanciuanas is a rookie who averaged 8.9pts on 55.7% shooting with 6 field goal attempts per game, 6rebs, and 1.3blks per game in 23.9mpg in his first year in the league at 20 years of age.

    I'm not ready to put Jonas in Shaq/Timmy/KG territory but I am definitely not ready to limit his ceiling to Roy Hibbert.
    Let's nail down a comp for best-case-scenario JV. I'm thinking the skill set needs to be similar to what I mentioned above:

    DPOY candidacy (Noah, Gasol?)
    Great screen and roller (much less athletic Amare?)
    Double team necessity in low post (Big Al?)

    Am I missing a major piece of the skill set?

    Again, this isn't "most likely", it's "very best" case scenario. It's gotta be somebody with a ton of tools but not somebody that's gonna be top 3-5 MVP (prime Howard is too optimistic, imo). There's a lot of guys here that know NBA history better than me, anybody got a decent comp?

  17. #76
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Let's nail down a comp for best-case-scenario JV. I'm thinking the skill set needs to be similar to what I mentioned above:

    DPOY candidacy (Noah, Gasol?)
    Great screen and roller (much less athletic Amare?)
    Double team necessity in low post (Big Al?)

    Am I missing a major piece of the skill set?

    Again, this isn't "most likely", it's "very best" case scenario. It's gotta be somebody with a ton of tools but not somebody that's gonna be top 3-5 MVP (prime Howard is too optimistic, imo). There's a lot of guys here that know NBA history better than me, anybody got a decent comp?
    Robert Parish?
    Last edited by NoPropsneeded; Sat Apr 20th, 2013 at 03:09 PM.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  18. #77
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    I also don't think Hibbert is a very good comparison. You also have to consider things like motor and development. I don't like the Parish comparison either. His numbers are deceptive because of how dominant Boston was, but he was not the guy you went to for a play in the post.

    Trying to think of a comparison for Jonas is hard. He's got a lot of qualities that make you think of different bigs. For me, one guy he reminds me of, and I think in many ways is a good comparison, is Alonzo Mourning, who frankly in his prime would be the 2nd best C today behind a healthy Howard. A big who plays with a lot of intensity. Provides lane intimidation both with strength and length. Rebounds the ball. Has a versatile offensive game where he can both backdown and face up. I think both their games have a good mix of strength, finesse and athleticisim, with JV having probably a bit more finesse and a bit less athleticisim, but also having more size. I see that comparison increasingly becoming JV's worst case in my eyes.

  19. #78
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Translation: Oh ya, well how do you know??



    Translation: I dont have a counterpoint beyond my first reply, so I'm withdrawing.



    I think you can do better my friend.
    You just make a presumptuous statement without providing any evidence and somehow want me to provide the evidence to the contrary because I ask for evidence. I'm not going to take the trouble; it's like arguing with people who claim there is a giant green smurf who created the universe and expect the others to disprove it. It's unreasonable.

  20. #79
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Let's nail down a comp for best-case-scenario JV. I'm thinking the skill set needs to be similar to what I mentioned above:

    DPOY candidacy (Noah, Gasol?)
    Great screen and roller (much less athletic Amare?)
    Double team necessity in low post (Big Al?)

    Am I missing a major piece of the skill set?

    Again, this isn't "most likely", it's "very best" case scenario. It's gotta be somebody with a ton of tools but not somebody that's gonna be top 3-5 MVP (prime Howard is too optimistic, imo). There's a lot of guys here that know NBA history better than me, anybody got a decent comp?
    I think its the Gasol bros. Marc is the closest .. his game also has some similarities to Pau also. I think Marc is the most likely upside (which is pretty damn good btw .. hes the best center in the game right now).

    Not sure his defense will ever get as good as Marc's .. but his ability to bang is similar. He also has a better jump shooting touch and is arguably a better PNR guy. Marc's all around game is obviously very superior today .. but in terms of a comp, I think thats the best one.
    Last edited by mountio; Sat Apr 20th, 2013 at 05:45 PM.

  21. #80
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Good point. I made the leap to "hung up" based on Simmons' phrasing. I still think it's ridiculous to take the centrepiece of a potential franchise shifting trade off the table without significant internal deliberation. Again, perhaps those discussions did take place, but Simmons' presentation suggests the opposite, and BC hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt based on track record.
    Well let's look at it this way: the Raptors weren't the only one to "quickly rebuff" Sam Presti. The Wizards are another one.

    A person with knowledge of Oklahoma City’s interest in Beal said the Wizards’ decision to hold on to Beal made sense because teams are often willing to trade draft picks but are more inclined to keep players once they’ve been selected.
    Source: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...ington-wizards

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