View Poll Results: Jonas for Harden? Would you?

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Thread: Bill Simmons: NBA Trade Value

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    I took a long time to decide on this one, but I figure I would do it. Trades based off of potential of a certain player are soso hard to determine whether you're winning the trade or not.

    I'm more of a guy that figures talent over potential would better serve the team. JV does have a lot of upside, and I'm really excited to see what he provides us in the future...

    I understand the arguments that no one knew if Harden would ever reach star status, buuuut at the same time, everyone knew Harden was a starting-calibre player in OKC, he just chose to anchor the second unit. Him alongside Rudy in the starting lineup would be spectacular.

    Addressing the starting lineup issues this would cause...we could go small for the time being and have:

    Lowry
    Harden
    DeRozan
    Gay
    Amir

    Amir played a lot of center during the when-Bargs-was-actually-healthy era, so I think he's perfectly capable of filling that hole for an extended period of time. This lineup has it all, from shooting to athleticism, and Lowry/Harden's combined playmaking ability would do wonders for the offense.

    Eventually going small would hurt us when playing teams that have fundamental bigs, especially PF's around the league that take Rudy down in the post. In this case, we could finally package DeMar and receive a capable starting center. (I say capable because people will say Gray will do just fine, which is completely not true). Possible returns could be Andrew Bogut, or Pekovic (my dream) for DeMar and a pick. Insert your own player as well. The lineup would then form into:

    Lowry
    Harden
    Gay
    Amir
    ???

    Playoffs.
    Last edited by isaacthompson; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 09:58 AM.
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  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Wow, this is a tough trade to guage. Especially back then when nobody knew if Harden would succeed in a starting role and when nobody knew if JV was for real or a bust.

    On the one hand Harden is a rare talent that projects to be the best SG in the league possibly as early as next year with Kobe out and Wade constantly battling injuries...that first team all NBA squad. And he has the ability to make players around him better as well. He's taken Houston into the playoffs in his first year without a tonne of talent around him.

    On the other hand, JV has shown signs that he could be the real deal. I don't see him as a Tim Duncan type big that is going to dominate his position night in and out, but it's quite possible he could be a 15 & 10 centre in this league which is top notch. It's also true that good bigs are much harder to come by than guards and wings.

    Tough call.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Pass. Although Harden is definitely better than JV (at the moment), it is easier to build a core around JV.

    Once JV polishes his game and averages 20-10, it would be easier to get superstars to come and play with him. One, because he is not a volume scorer, he wont need 20-30 shots a game since he will be working closer to the basket. its easier to acquire perimeter guys and combine them with bigmen rather than finding big men and combining them with perimeter players. Why? Because big men do not control the ball as much as perimeter guys. Big men go with the flow, so to speak and they dont demand. Its better to have an established big man on your team then build the team around him.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    JV is too rare to give up At 20 he already has more offensive tools than Dwight Howard.. Kid is legit.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Pass. Although Harden is definitely better than JV (at the moment), it is easier to build a core around JV.

    Once JV polishes his game and averages 20-10, it would be easier to get superstars to come and play with him. One, because he is not a volume scorer, he wont need 20-30 shots a game since he will be working closer to the basket. its easier to acquire perimeter guys and combine them with bigmen rather than finding big men and combining them with perimeter players. Why? Because big men do not control the ball as much as perimeter guys. Big men go with the flow, so to speak and they dont demand. Its better to have an established big man on your team then build the team around him.
    20 & 10 doesn't happen without demanding the ball in the post. Likely not going to happen unless DeMar or Gay and possibly both are traded. As far as attracting super stars goes...in today's NBA you have a better chance of attracting free agent super stars by having their friends on your team, not by having and established player on your team, imo. Just ask Mark Cuban how easy it's been to get a super star running mate for Dirk. Imo, the only way to get a super star in Toronto is via trade or draft.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    JV is too rare to give up At 20 he already has more offensive tools than Dwight Howard.. Kid is legit.
    That's a weird comparison since Dwight's dominance has nothing to do with his offensive tools.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Pass. Although Harden is definitely better than JV (at the moment), it is easier to build a core around JV.

    Once JV polishes his game and averages 20-10, it would be easier to get superstars to come and play with him. One, because he is not a volume scorer, he wont need 20-30 shots a game since he will be working closer to the basket. its easier to acquire perimeter guys and combine them with bigmen rather than finding big men and combining them with perimeter players. Why? Because big men do not control the ball as much as perimeter guys. Big men go with the flow, so to speak and they dont demand. Its better to have an established big man on your team then build the team around him.
    Indeed. With JV's tools, and FT shooting, he can average around 20 (give or take) on very few shots. The thing with a guy like JV, as much as he hasn't been passing and has been turning it over, you can already see the beginnings of a SMART post player. So he will always demand the ball, but never monopolize the offense, easily realizing the principle of passing up a shot for a better one. JV already increasingly rarely forces up a bad shot.

    Building around a good 2-way big man is the easiest way to start building a team that can sustain success in the long-term, because it instantly gives you someone who can dominate the most important part of the court on any given night. And even if you have better players on the perimeter, it opens so much for them.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 10:52 AM.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    you can flip this around so easily to say:

    in a rapidly changing league where there's such a huge premium on 3 pt shooting and ball movement, where every one of the best teams does not have a franchise traditional big except san antonio and (arguably) memphis, and yet all of them have franchise perimeter players, do you need one?

    cuz to me all current evidence points towards 'no.'
    Look at San Antonio and Memphis. They are much more effective teams. Teams with star traditional bigs always have a better chance of winning a championship, history has prove that time and time again. I don't care what "era" it is, a traditional franchise big is very hard to come by these days. Valanciunas can dominate his position more than James Harden can, simply because he is bigger and more skilled than most players at his position. Where as for Harden, there are like 10 other guys who can do whatever he can do.
    Last edited by NoPropsneeded; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 11:11 AM.

  9. #29
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    I think it's too early to say whether refusing the Harden for JV trade was wise. Personally, I think that JV has a very high ceiling and could be the anchor on a very good team. If he reaches the ceiling of being a top-flight center, then I think BC made the right move. But there are also intangibles. Would Harden sign an extension in TO? Maybe BC was concerned that he would have problems re-signing Harden. He would have definitely needed to have an assurance that Harden would sign a long-term deal before even contemplating that trade. On the other hand, I see JV becoming a really important dimension of the Raptors' franchise DNA, on and off the court. He seems to be a very positive guy, whose enthusiasm rubs off on teammates. That can be a very valuable trait in building a franchise.

  10. #30
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Look at San Antonio and Memphis. They are much more effective teams. Teams with star traditional bigs always have a better chance of winning a championship, history has prove that time and time again. I don't care what "era" it is, a traditional franchise big is very hard to come by these days. Valanciunas can dominate his position more than James Harden can, simply because he is bigger and more skilled than most players at his position. Where as for Harden, there are like 10 other guys who can do whatever he can do.
    Bingo!

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    you can flip this around so easily to say:

    in a rapidly changing league where there's such a huge premium on 3 pt shooting and ball movement, where every one of the best teams does not have a franchise traditional big except san antonio and (arguably) memphis, and yet all of them have franchise perimeter players, do you need one?

    cuz to me all current evidence points towards 'no.'
    You can flip THIS around and say, if you're going to try and win with a roster that emphasizes speed and shooting, are you really going to beat Miami or OKC at that game? I see the answer to that as firmly "no".

    It's one of the main reasons a team like Memphis is building the way they are. They could've kept Gay, who gives them that dimension a bit, but instead opted to get even "slower" with Prince, emphasizing their strengths even more (yes I know there were money issues largely at the core of things, but I think there were basketball issues too, in terms of them hoping a downgrade would be a bit better for on-court chemistry). Why? Because the best chance a team will have to beat Miami (or OKC) will be to exploit their weaknesses, not out-do their strengths.

    Even San Antonio, which emphasizes offense a lot more than they used to, still depends to a large degree on having an inside-out game initiated by Duncan and even a guy like Diaw.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 11:39 AM.

  12. #32
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Look at San Antonio and Memphis. They are much more effective teams. Teams with star traditional bigs always have a better chance of winning a championship, history has prove that time and time again. I don't care what "era" it is, a traditional franchise big is very hard to come by these days. Valanciunas can dominate his position more than James Harden can, simply because he is bigger and more skilled than most players at his position. Where as for Harden, there are like 10 other guys who can do whatever he can do.
    Problem is, how many of those guys are playing for the Raptors right now?

    The NBA is obviously NOW, a point guard league, but to be successful, you need an assortment of wings, and having Harden, than down the road Rudy Gay, would be an example of elite. Far better than our current duo of Derozan/Gay.

    Derozan than becomes expendable, package Derozan with Bargnani, possibly throw in Ross as a sweetener (Ross and Derozan not getting minutes with Harden at two, Rudy at 3, Fields comes in as a balance 2/3), which allows some significant assets in return such as a centre, a pick, a prospect, etc.

    Although, I'm on the board of having no MAJOR changes in the off-season, so everything I said is contradictory lol
    Last edited by ReubenJRD; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 12:06 PM.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    20 & 10 doesn't happen without demanding the ball in the post. Likely not going to happen unless DeMar or Gay and possibly both are traded. As far as attracting super stars goes...in today's NBA you have a better chance of attracting free agent super stars by having their friends on your team, not by having and established player on your team, imo. Just ask Mark Cuban how easy it's been to get a super star running mate for Dirk. Imo, the only way to get a super star in Toronto is via trade or draft.
    That is right, but Duncan doesnt have the ball in his hands as much as TP or Manu does. I havent looked at the stats but i m pretty sure Duncan gets his points not just on post-ups and mid-range, but from putbacks, offensive rebounds, drop-passes and botched plays where as TP and Manu would have the bulk of their points when the ball is in their hands, much like Harden.

    the superfriends theory is true as well, but i do think players also consider how much of a fit they will be in an environment that theyre potentially coming in. like when Carmelo went to new york, he knew that having amare there with him would compliment his game and at the same time not affect his ability to control the perimeter. i just think that players would be more inclined to play with JV since he controls the middle rather than with Harden who would have the ball in his hands most of the time.

  14. #34
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    That is right, but Duncan doesnt have the ball in his hands as much as TP or Manu does. I havent looked at the stats but i m pretty sure Duncan gets his points not just on post-ups and mid-range, but from putbacks, offensive rebounds, drop-passes and botched plays where as TP and Manu would have the bulk of their points when the ball is in their hands, much like Harden.

    the superfriends theory is true as well, but i do think players also consider how much of a fit they will be in an environment that theyre potentially coming in. like when Carmelo went to new york, he knew that having amare there with him would compliment his game and at the same time not affect his ability to control the perimeter. i just think that players would be more inclined to play with JV since he controls the middle rather than with Harden who would have the ball in his hands most of the time.
    Harden is actually an underrated play-maker. Makes plays for his teammates, especially when he was in OKC WHEN he was surrounded by superstar players; he played the combo guard game. That's why so many are STILL to this point disappointed in the fact that Harden was traded, his ability to take the play-making responsibilities off of Westbrook, and incredible scoring, was the intangible for that team to take a championship over Miami.

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  16. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Harden is actually an underrated play-maker. Makes plays for his teammates, especially when he was in OKC WHEN he was surrounded by superstar players; he played the combo guard game. That's why so many are STILL to this point disappointed in the fact that Harden was traded, his ability to take the play-making responsibilities off of Westbrook, and incredible scoring, was the intangible for that team to take a championship over Miami.
    I don't think he was ever underrated as a playmaker; e.g. I've heard and read many times in the last OKC-years that Harden was their best passer.

  17. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    That is right, but Duncan doesnt have the ball in his hands as much as TP or Manu does. I havent looked at the stats but i m pretty sure Duncan gets his points not just on post-ups and mid-range, but from putbacks, offensive rebounds, drop-passes and botched plays where as TP and Manu would have the bulk of their points when the ball is in their hands, much like Harden.

    the superfriends theory is true as well, but i do think players also consider how much of a fit they will be in an environment that theyre potentially coming in. like when Carmelo went to new york, he knew that having amare there with him would compliment his game and at the same time not affect his ability to control the perimeter. i just think that players would be more inclined to play with JV since he controls the middle rather than with Harden who would have the ball in his hands most of the time.
    I agree that you don't average 20 points a game strictly on having plays run for you, especially if you're a big. However my point was just that I don't see JV as a 20 point player every night, in this league without having quite a few touches in the post like what Duncan gets. And that is especially the case with two guys like DeMar and Rudy on the same team whom are high volume shooters. There's only so many touches to go around.

    If it's between either JV or Harden as to whom would attract more star talent to the Raptors, in my mind it's no question that Harden would more so than JV.

    I'm still on the fence about whether I would have done that trade or not. Harden is a proven franchise talent where as JV is showing signs that he might be, but has a much longer way to go to get to that level.

  18. #37
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    wow...I don't know what I think of this. I mean Harden will likely be a perennial all star and does so many things extremely well.

    However JV has the potential to be a perennial all star...

    I don't think I can take a side on this and really say what the better move would have been.

  19. #38
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    JV is too rare to give up At 20 he already has more offensive tools than Dwight Howard.. Kid is legit.
    I think I have more offensive tools than Dwight Howard

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  21. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    wow...I don't know what I think of this. I mean Harden will likely be a perennial all star and does so many things extremely well.

    However JV has the potential to be a perennial all star...

    I don't think I can take a side on this and really say what the better move would have been.
    It is tough.

    I don't think you will be able to make that decision without hindsight in a couple of years time.... unless you aren't a fan of delayed gratification in which case the trade should have been taken.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  22. #40
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It is tough.

    I don't think you will be able to make that decision without hindsight in a couple of years time.... unless you aren't a fan of delayed gratification in which case the trade should have been taken.
    The drum I've been beating lately is the need to get older and more experienced. So wanting to keep JV really conflicts with that. That being said I would have traded every other player on this roster all the picks and some cash to boot to land Harden

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