View Poll Results: Jonas for Harden? Would you?

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    11 27.50%
  • No

    29 72.50%
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 83

Thread: Bill Simmons: NBA Trade Value

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,630
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    The drum I've been beating lately is the need to get older and more experienced. So wanting to keep JV really conflicts with that. That being said I would have traded every other player on this roster all the picks and some cash to boot to land Harden
    No doubt and no question.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Utrecht, The Netherlands (Yes, that's Europe!)
    Posts
    1,920
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Even with hindsight in a few years, the problem of course is that we don't know what kind of deal was on the table and who else was involved. Considering gm's can't use hindsight to make deals and considering the scarcity and value of centers who are a B+ on both ends of the floor and the good chance (even before the season for those of us who followed JV last year) that JV is going to be that (and maybe more) I will never blame Colangelo for not taking this deal, regardless of who else was involved and the insights hindsights will give us in a couple of years.

  3. Like white men can't jump liked this post
  4. #43
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm floored by the replies here. Jonas is a nice piece, a cornerstone to build around even. But Harden is a top 10 NBA talent. He's the exact player that Raptors fans think wouldn't consider our franchise in free agency. Harden is a going to be an all-nba caliber player for the next 5 years AT LEAST. He's a franchise player. Jonas is a great piece, but he's not a franchise player. Harden is one of the 10 to 12 guys in the league that can realistically be the best player on a championship team. He's a transcendent play maker, not a project (which Jonas still is despite his encouraging play as a rookie). Harden is the ideal guy for today's NBA: ball handling, get to the rim, get to the line, solid outside shot. Unless we are talking about the best big-man in the game (JV is not close), then it's a no brainer to pull the trigger for Harden.

    Playing off Simmons' "trade value" idea, by rejecting a Harden for JV trade straight away with no follow up, you are essentially saying that Jonas is one of the top 10 most valuable assets in the entire league. It's utter nonsense.

    Please don't interpret this as a negative reflection on Big Val. I love the guy's hustle, developing skill set, his mindset and approach. But what has the man done to be considered a all-NBA talent or the centerpiece of a champion? Nothing.

    It's unbelievable that 21 people (and counting!) voted to keep JV instead of acquiring Harden.
    Last edited by NoBan; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 05:07 PM.

  5. Like chris, isaacthompson liked this post
  6. #44
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Etobicoke
    Posts
    990
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I'm floored by the replies here. Jonas is a nice piece, a cornerstone to build around even. But Harden is a top 10 NBA talent. He's the exact player that Raptors fans think wouldn't consider our franchise in free agency. Harden is a going to be an all-nba caliber player for the next 5 years AT LEAST. He's a franchise player. Jonas is a great piece, but he's not a franchise player. Harden is one of the 10 to 12 guys in the league that can realistically be the best player on a championship team. He's a transcendent play maker, not a project (which Jonas still is despite his encouraging play as a rookie). Harden is the ideal guy for today's NBA: ball handling, get to the rim, get to the line, solid outside shot. Unless we are talking about the best big-man in the game (JV is not close), then it's a no brainer to pull the trigger for Harden.

    Playing off Simmons' "trade value" idea, by rejecting a Harden for JV trade straight away with no follow up, you are essentially saying that Jonas is one of the top 10 most valuable assets in the entire league. It's utter nonsense.

    Please don't interpret this as a negative reflection on Big Val. I love the guy's hustle, developing skill set, his mindset and approach. But what has the man done to be considered a all-NBA talent or the centerpiece of a champion? Nothing.

    It's unbelievable that 21 people (and counting!) voted to keep JV instead of acquiring Harden.
    The point is that Harden was not an all-nba calliber player at the time. He was a fantastic 6th man on a fantastic Thunder team and he could probably start for the majority of NBA teams. But his ability to be a max player? That did not become evident until this season. Houston took a gamble, and it paid off. But it was still a gamble.

  7. Like footarez, white men can't jump liked this post
  8. #45
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,605
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I'm floored by the replies here. Jonas is a nice piece, a cornerstone to build around even. But Harden is a top 10 NBA talent. He's the exact player that Raptors fans think wouldn't consider our franchise in free agency. Harden is a going to be an all-nba caliber player for the next 5 years AT LEAST. He's a franchise player. Jonas is a great piece, but he's not a franchise player. Harden is one of the 10 to 12 guys in the league that can realistically be the best player on a championship team. He's a transcendent play maker, not a project (which Jonas still is despite his encouraging play as a rookie). Harden is the ideal guy for today's NBA: ball handling, get to the rim, get to the line, solid outside shot. Unless we are talking about the best big-man in the game (JV is not close), then it's a no brainer to pull the trigger for Harden.

    Playing off Simmons' "trade value" idea, by rejecting a Harden for JV trade straight away with no follow up, you are essentially saying that Jonas is one of the top 10 most valuable assets in the entire league. It's utter nonsense.

    Please don't interpret this as a negative reflection on Big Val. I love the guy's hustle, developing skill set, his mindset and approach. But what has the man done to be considered a all-NBA talent or the centerpiece of a champion? Nothing.

    It's unbelievable that 21 people (and counting!) voted to keep JV instead of acquiring Harden.
    You can't simply evaluate on current talent comparisons alone. You have to consider a variety of factors, such as:

    - age
    - potential
    - salary
    - positional scarcity
    - Raptors current roster (at time of trade)
    - what else did OKC request in addition to JV (since it's doubtful that they would have accepted a straight-up trade)

    I personally felt that Harden was a little overrated, especially playing in the shadow of Durant & Westbrook in OKC. He was looking for a huge salary increase and scoring wings are a lot more plentiful than traditional C's who have the potential to become a force at both ends of the court.

    I gladly would have done a DeRozan & future 1st round pick deal for Harden, however, since DeRozan was also in-line for a big raise.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Apr 19th, 2013 at 05:16 PM.

  9. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,585
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    The point is that Harden was not an all-nba calliber player at the time. He was a fantastic 6th man on a fantastic Thunder team and he could probably start for the majority of NBA teams. But his ability to be a max player? That did not become evident until this season. Houston took a gamble, and it paid off. But it was still a gamble.
    Ahem.

    Sure, Harden was not an "all-NBA calibre player" at the time.

    But I haven't seen anyone point out that JV had not played a single NBA game at the same point.

    Talent > Potential.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  10. #47
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,824
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You can't simply evaluate on current talent comparisons alone. You have to consider a variety of factors, such as:

    - age
    - potential
    - salary
    - positional scarcity
    - Raptors current roster (at time of trade)
    - what else did OKC request in addition to JV (since it's doubtful that they would have accepted a straight-up trade)

    I personally felt that Harden was a little overrated, especially playing in the shadow of Durant & Westbrook in OKC. He was looking for a huge salary increase and scoring wings are a lot more plentiful than traditional C's who have the potential to become a force at both ends of the court.

    I gladly would have done a DeRozan & future 1st round pick deal for Harden, however, since DeRozan was also in-line for a big raise.
    Don't forget the all-important judgment of gauging the likelihood of reaching potential. I can't think of a guy I trust to reach his potential more.

  11. #48
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,071
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I don't think he was ever underrated as a playmaker; e.g. I've heard and read many times in the last OKC-years that Harden was their best passer.
    To counter both our arguments though, it doesn't mean much when the team's second best passer reigns from Durant, and or Westbrook.

  12. #49
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    The point is that Harden was not an all-nba calliber player at the time. He was a fantastic 6th man on a fantastic Thunder team and he could probably start for the majority of NBA teams. But his ability to be a max player? That did not become evident until this season. Houston took a gamble, and it paid off. But it was still a gamble.


    You're right that Harden cemented his status as NBA superstar this season. But making the comparison during last offseason:

    Harden: Best player in series vs San Antonio and vs LA in last playoffs.
    JV: Zero NBA games played.

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    - age
    - potential
    - salary
    - positional scarcity
    - Raptors current roster (at time of trade)
    - what else did OKC request in addition to JV (since it's doubtful that they would have accepted a straight-up trade)
    I still favour Harden.

    Age: Both young enough to play 2 contracts for the team

    Potential: Is JV's potential really "best player on a champion"? Because Hardens' is and was at the time. If we're talking best case scenario, ceiling... Harden's potential is DWade (with better shooting and less D) and JV's is a slightly better Roy Hibbert. Both awesome talents and desirable players, but Harden wins on potential, especially when you factor in that Harden's so much closer to reaching said potential.

    Salary: JV wins hands down with his rookie deal. But once you factor in the willingness to pay Rudy $18 Mil, it's eyebrow raising time.

    Positional Scarcity: Isn't this why Detroit took Darko over Carmelo? or the Bucks going for Bogut over Williams/Paul?

    Raptors current roster: You talkin about Demar?

    What else OCK wanted: Valid, but it's unacceptable that we didn't even inquire.






    You guys are right, it's not as cut and dry as looking at Harden's production this year. But, even removing hindsight, i maintain that it's still pretty obvious we should have pulled the trigger,

  13. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    204
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    The point is that Harden was not an all-nba calliber player at the time. He was a fantastic 6th man on a fantastic Thunder team and he could probably start for the majority of NBA teams. But his ability to be a max player? That did not become evident until this season. Houston took a gamble, and it paid off. But it was still a gamble.
    Meh. Many people who watched Harden saw a Ginobli caliber shooting guard playing behind two ball dominant perimeter players. He put up great numbers and had a very big impact despite limited touches and clearly looked like one of the best 2 guards in the league. Gamble or not, his talent was obvious.

  14. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    The point is that Harden was not an all-nba calliber player at the time. He was a fantastic 6th man on a fantastic Thunder team and he could probably start for the majority of NBA teams. But his ability to be a max player? That did not become evident until this season. Houston took a gamble, and it paid off. But it was still a gamble.

    From many statistical stand points he was already a franchise calibre player just stuck playing behind 2 (or atleast one) other franchise calibre players - so I imagine Morey didn't feel it was much of a gamble at all.

    I'm not sure how I would have felt about the trade (had it happened) at the time myself. But I don't know how one can argue the 'unkowns' around Harden was a reason to not to make a trade given he'd atleast played 3 years of NBA ball while Jonas played none. If something being unknown or uncertain was a rational, trading Jonas should have been a given.

  15. #52
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,630
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    You're right that Harden cemented his status as NBA superstar this season. But making the comparison during last offseason:

    Harden: Best player in series vs San Antonio and vs LA in last playoffs.
    JV: Zero NBA games played.



    I still favour Harden.

    Age: Both young enough to play 2 contracts for the team

    Potential: Is JV's potential really "best player on a champion"? Because Hardens' is and was at the time. If we're talking best case scenario, ceiling... Harden's potential is DWade (with better shooting and less D) and JV's is a slightly better Roy Hibbert. Both awesome talents and desirable players, but Harden wins on potential, especially when you factor in that Harden's so much closer to reaching said potential.

    Salary: JV wins hands down with his rookie deal. But once you factor in the willingness to pay Rudy $18 Mil, it's eyebrow raising time.

    Positional Scarcity: Isn't this why Detroit took Darko over Carmelo? or the Bucks going for Bogut over Williams/Paul?

    Raptors current roster: You talkin about Demar?

    What else OCK wanted: Valid, but it's unacceptable that we didn't even inquire.






    You guys are right, it's not as cut and dry as looking at Harden's production this year. But, even removing hindsight, i maintain that it's still pretty obvious we should have pulled the trigger,

    Harden was good in playoffs last season but hardly best player. Outside of game 2 vs. San Antonio (which OKC lost) he was good but nothing spectacular. Vs LAL, nothing spectacular (35.8% shooting?). Literally pooped the bed vs. Miami.


    The bold is ludicrous. JV just put up better numbers than Hibberts 2nd year in the league and Hibbert was 4 years older at the time. Then you factor in JV coming from a country where their religion is basketball.


    You definitely have a point on Harden known to be a VERY good NBA player whereas JV had played 0 games.



    Still think you need to wait a couple of seasons to see how JV plays out unless one is all about instant gratification in which case the Harden deal should have been made.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  16. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,545
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You definitely have a point on Harden known to be a VERY good NBA player whereas JV had played 0 games.

    Still think you need to wait a couple of seasons to see how JV plays out unless one is all about instant gratification in which case the Harden deal should have been made.
    What move has BC made over the past season that wasn't about instant gratification?
    your pal,
    ebrian

  17. #54
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,630
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    What move has BC made over the past season that wasn't about instant gratification?

    How is that relevant? Just so we are clear, my days of defending BC are over. I want him gone. Without knowing what JV becomes it really is hard to make a valid judgement on this supposed trade, that is just my opinion.

    What would heinz say right now? Hmmmm.... Just because you go bareback with 9 strippers doesn't mean you shouldn't get credit for wrapping it on the 10th one.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  18. #55
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,382
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Looking at the trade made Houston got Harden and filler (if I remember correctly Lazar was bought out). OKC gave up the best player, but every asset they received was a winner. They got a lottery pick, Martin, a quality rookie, etc.

    I have a hard time believing that the Raptors would have gotten anything other than Harden worth keeping, BUT to make the trade they would have had to move a number of quality pieces. This isn't a player for player trade. It would have meant an immediate rebuild around Harden and likely (throws up in mouth) Bargnani. Do you think Jose and ED gets the Raps Harden? I don't. One thing we all know BC isn't into long term. Like I said earlier, I would take a serious hard look but if I believe in JV, Demar, and have a Lowry trade in my back pocket I go that route.

  19. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,545
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    How is that relevant? Just so we are clear, my days of defending BC are over. I want him gone. Without knowing what JV becomes it really is hard to make a valid judgement on this supposed trade, that is just my opinion.

    What would heinz say right now? Hmmmm.... Just because you go bareback with 9 strippers doesn't mean you shouldn't get credit for wrapping it on the 10th one.
    I know you're not defending BC. But how is it not relevant? You just said you wouldn't make this trade unless you cared only about instant gratification, but you supported the Rudy Gay trade, correct? It's relevant because we're talking about what BC should have done. Every move this season has been about instant gratification, but the best move he could have done was not only rebuffed, the guy didn't even consider it.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  20. #57
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,545
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    In hindsight knowing this deal did not get done explains more why BC was willing to trade for Rudy Gay. He had to make up for not trading for Harden.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  21. #58
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,312
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Just musing here, but it would have been the steal of the century if BC had traded JV + AB for Harden plus trade ballast.

  22. Like ReubenJRD liked this post
  23. #59
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    the premise of simmonsí column is that most rational people would trade player X for any other player ranked higher than player X if there were no trade rules and all could go through straight up.

    mistakenly, i believed this thread to be about whether we would trade jonas valanciunas straight up for james harden, right now, this evening, knowing everything we currently know about them and thatís it. i did not know it was about what the package around jonas would have been and about how good harden was perceived to be prior to the season. factoring that in, the results of the poll are much more defensible. (for the record i still likely would have done it as i thought it was pretty evident last year from watching both players that westbrook was basically incapable of making good basketball decisions and harden was the better player. nevertheless, much more defensible poll results.)

    but what BLOWS MY FUCKING MIND is that there are evidently still people that ďare so happy the trade didnít go throughĒ and wouldnít right now, this evening, knowing that harden is a top ten franchise player to build around, give up jonas valanciunas because of some outdated notion that a franchise player that is a center is more valuable than any other franchise player.

    i call bullshit on that notion! a franchise player is a franchise player, you take that talent if it is available every time and adjust the rest of your roster accordingly, who gives a shit what position it is!

    the only way to rationalize not doing this trade is if you believe that jv will definitely become a franchise-making top ten player, and a better one than harden who will definitely be ranked above him on the majority of future versions of such lists for the rest of their respective careers.

    i do believe it is a possibility this could become the case, but if you believe it to be an inevitable certainty based on the season we just watched than i dunno what to tell you. you are probably an insane homer i guess.

  24. #60
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,630
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I know you're not defending BC. But how is it not relevant? You just said you wouldn't make this trade unless you cared only about instant gratification, but you supported the Rudy Gay trade, correct? It's relevant because we're talking about what BC should have done. Every move this season has been about instant gratification, but the best move he could have done was not only rebuffed, the guy didn't even consider it.
    I did support the Gay trade. Although last year when I was going on and on about it, it was with the idea of Bargnani being what was always hoped for. I don't think the Raptors were going to get a more talented player via free agency and I don't think the assets required to get Gay were extreme. Last year no one thought Calderon, Davis, and a 2nd rd pick would get the guy. Sure his contract sucks but if he made Deng/Granger money no one would bat an eye.

    I'm not sure this was the best move. Harden wasn't known to be what he has become. JV wasn't known about anything NBA related. However the potential for a dominant C is more alluring than Harden - even now knowing how all has panned out with Harden.

    I still think any real indication of how this plays out won't be known for a couple of years.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Apr 20th, 2013 at 06:58 AM.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •