View Poll Results: Should the Raptors fire Bryan Colangelo?

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  • Yes

    28 75.68%
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Thread: HoopsWorld.com: Should the Raptors fire Bryan Colangelo?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    The 2nd part yes, I just disagreed that Bosh is always called out as being not worth a max contract.
    No, I definitely agree that he is worth it. As in, no one else in the league at that time would question giving him a max contract. Like I said, I don't think that part is Colangelo's fault -- he was just unlucky. The unlucky part being that Glen Grunwald wasn't picking first overall in the 2003 NBA Draft.
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  2. #42
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    The 2nd part yes, I just disagreed that Bosh is always called out as being not worth a max contract.
    I have always felt that Bosh was a solid player, but not a 'max player' to be built around. I think he'd be borderline to make the list of top-30 players in the NBA (I don't feel like doing a list right now) at best, plus I don't like the idea of building around a PF in this current NBA. He's one of the top PF in the league, a solid player, good teammate and was always a great team rep in the city, but I certainly don't think he's worth more than $15M per season (max would be roughly $20M+, pending the new salary cap).

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I have always felt that Bosh was a solid player, but not a 'max player' to be built around. I think he'd be borderline to make the list of top-30 players in the NBA (I don't feel like doing a list right now) at best, plus I don't like the idea of building around a PF in this current NBA. He's one of the top PF in the league, a solid player, good teammate and was always a great team rep in the city, but I certainly don't think he's worth more than $15M per season (max would be roughly $20M+, pending the new salary cap).
    Here is my thing with Bosh:

    What he did in Toronto (and in general) at a absolute level (ie. 20-10 on 50% shooting) is rare. But on a marginal level (ie. 21-9 on 50% or 18-11 on 48% etc) its rather common.

    There are lots of players who can do what he did. Not quite as good ofcourse, but very close, and often for much cheaper.

    Then we have a matter of 'the details'. He is a rather average rebounder, an average to below average defender and doesn't do much to make his teammates better at either end.

    Bosh is a very efficient and consistent player, specifically offensively. There is alot of value in that. He deserves to be a perennial all-star. But he doesn't have that unique quality true superstars or franchise players do. He doesn't dominate in any one, or numerous, aspects of the game. He doesn't have unique physical attributes that allows him to control either end of the floor. He doesn't have that cold blooded instinct/mental toughness others do. He just sort of 'is'.

    Its the guys who are unique, who are dominant in areas, who can control the outcome of games who deserve the max deals. Having him as your franchise/best player means your team isn't going to be "elite" without filling your roster with almost equivalent level talent across the board. Now if you pay him max dollars, you are going to have a much more difficult time filling out that roster with equivalent level talent.

    Just looking at guys who are PFs I'd rather have:

    -Ibaka
    -Pau
    -Lee
    -Love
    -Monroe
    -Horford
    -Aldridge

    They can all do what Bosh does, at differing levels ofcourse, but each have something more above and beyond Bosh.

  4. #44
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I don't understand this perspective. Do you think Colangelo has developed a trojan horse virus, where he will activate the minute he gets fired, and when the next GM who is hired tries to check out our roster, the files will become corrupt and unreadable? Perhaps you think the payroll records, and all the statistics recorded by statisticians and SportsVU will suddenly become locked and only Colangelo has the key? And then they will have to call Colangelo and beg him to unlock the secrets on how to run a franchise properly?
    None of the above.

    I personally wold prefer not to do something AT ALL than to HAVE to leave it half done or incomplete. Same applies when I ask someone to do something for me. That person would appreciate if I allowed him/her to complete the task than being asked to stop half way.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  5. #45
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I have always felt that Bosh was a solid player, but not a 'max player' to be built around. I think he'd be borderline to make the list of top-30 players in the NBA (I don't feel like doing a list right now) at best, plus I don't like the idea of building around a PF in this current NBA. He's one of the top PF in the league, a solid player, good teammate and was always a great team rep in the city, but I certainly don't think he's worth more than $15M per season (max would be roughly $20M+, pending the new salary cap).
    Bosh I think is worth max money but not one a team can be built around. Miami(the way they're built) is the best example. If Bosh was on the present Raps. team along with Gay, it would be quite a team.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  6. #46
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    I posted a very similar poll post-draft, pre-lowry. I can't find it now because it got merged into a thread with a million different topics/replies.

    My poll included options like "fire him if we miss the playoffs", "fire him immediately", "don't fire him, playoffs or not", etc. I was completely astonished by the support fans here showed for colangelo during the lifecycle of that poll. Almost nobody wanted him fired then. Some said take action if we missed the playoffs, and the majority (if i remember correctly) said they supported the guy fully.

    So I am quite happy to see that the BC support has waned in these parts. I guess 5 straight lotteries is less acceptable than 4.

    Unfortunately, it's TOO FUCKING LATE! We're now hamstrung with 2 more years of a 10th place roster full of untradeable assets. We're too good to hit the draft jackpot, we're too crap to make the playoffs, we're too maxed out to sign an impact piece, and we don't have the assets to trade for improved talent (unless we sell on Ross/Val). Any GM brought into replace the idiot will essentially man a sinking ship until the 2016 draft.
    Last edited by NoBan; Mon Apr 22nd, 2013 at 02:11 PM.

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  8. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I posted a very similar poll post-draft, pre-lowry. I can't find it now because it got merged into a thread with a million different topics/replies.

    My poll included options like "fire him if we miss the playoffs", "fire him immediately", "don't fire him, playoffs or not", etc. I was completely astonished by the support fans here showed for colangelo during the lifecycle of that poll. Almost nobody wanted him fired then. Some said take action if we missed the playoffs, and the majority (if i remember correctly) said they supported the guy fully.

    So I am quite happy to see that the BC support has waned in these parts. I guess 5 straight lotteries is less acceptable than 4.

    Unfortunately, it's TOO FUCKING LATE! We're now hamstrung with 2 more years of a 10th place roster full of untradeable assets. We're too good to hit the draft jackpot, we're too crap to make the playoffs, we're too maxed out to sign an impact piece, and we don't have the assets to trade for improved talent (unless we sell on Ross/Val). Any GM brought into replace the idiot will essentially man a sinking ship until the 2016 draft.
    DeMar didn't get his extension yet.. that may have been my excuse for keeping him on board.

  9. #48
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    As fun as it is to get on the "FIRE BC IMMEDIATELY!!!" bandwagon - and I would tend to agree Colangelo is not the GM Toronto can count on in the stage the Raptors are currently in, the hard part is searching for a replacement.

    ... Although, some of you might just throw up your hands and say, "Well just about anybody would be better than this garbage!!!" and you'd probably be right. Still, the Raptors don't need a less bad GM; they need an average to good one or we'll just be trashing the new GM in a few years.

  10. #49
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    DeMar didn't get his extension yet.. that may have been my excuse for keeping him on board.
    Which is sad because Demar deserves his raise.

    What's incredible funny is that Landry Fields makes 6 million per year, Primo Pastaboy makes 10-11 million per year and Kleiza makes 5 million.

    How can you question the fact that our 2nd best player makes 9.5 million??? This is what's ludicrous with MANY fans online. They're upset that BC wasted 20 million on players that don't/can't play and then get upset when our better players make $$$. I personally think DD would've gotten a bigger raise if BC didn't lock him up.

    Obviously i'm in the minority.

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  12. #50
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    I think the biggest issue fans have is regardless of whether you think DeRozan "deserves" $9.5 million/year, Colangelo was really bidding against only himself. If you can get away with paying a player, say, $7 million/year, why on earth would you pay him $9.5 million/year? Whether he's worth $7 million/year, $9.5 million/year or $15 million/year, it doesn't change that. Of course, granted, it's just speculation whether Demar would've taken less money, but I would think most signs point to it being a very reasonable guess.

    On a general side note, bad contracts do not justify bad contracts. Again, I'm not saying $9.5 million/year for DeRozan is bad, but Bargnani making $10 million/year wouldn't justify it if it were.

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  14. #51
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Which is sad because Demar deserves his raise.

    What's incredible funny is that Landry Fields makes 6 million per year, Primo Pastaboy makes 10-11 million per year and Kleiza makes 5 million.

    How can you question the fact that our 2nd best player makes 9.5 million??? This is what's ludicrous with MANY fans online. They're upset that BC wasted 20 million on players that don't/can't play and then get upset when our better players make $$$. I personally think DD would've gotten a bigger raise if BC didn't lock him up.

    Obviously i'm in the minority.
    The amount of the raise is only part of the problem (and it's still a pretty hefty one).. my problem is that he bid against himself. DeMar was a restricted free agent and the team had his bird rights. Any team could offer him a contract and Bryan could match. DeMar in my opinion would have done better playing in a contract year then if he already had a fat juicy contract waiting for him. DeMar's stock would be worth higher around the league as well since he would have a rookie contract.

    The timing of the signing made no sense, especially after the three seasons we just had. Why give a guy a raise based on potential only? Shouldn't he prove it before he got the dough?

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  16. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    None of the above.

    I personally wold prefer not to do something AT ALL than to HAVE to leave it half done or incomplete. Same applies when I ask someone to do something for me. That person would appreciate if I allowed him/her to complete the task than being asked to stop half way.
    I know what you mean by what you're saying, but I'm not sure it applies to the Toronto Raptors. This isn't like where you have Albert Einstein writing out a mathematical proof and you don't want to interrupt his work. You're worried that if you replace him halfway, no matter how brilliant the next guy you bring in is, he might not be able to finish the work.



    In the example of the Toronto Raptors, there is no "b" option as seen above. There is only "a". You can bring in a chimpanzee and it will most likely do a better job at completing the task than Bryan Colangelo.
    your pal,
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  17. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Chimp/Casey 2014

  18. #54
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Bosh I think is worth max money but not one a team can be built around. Miami(the way they're built) is the best example. If Bosh was on the present Raps. team along with Gay, it would be quite a team.
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't think any player is worth max money UNLESS they can be built around as a franchise cornerstone. That's one of the factors that I believe separates a 'max' player from a 'good player who's well paid'.

  19. #55
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    As fun as it is to get on the "FIRE BC IMMEDIATELY!!!" bandwagon - and I would tend to agree Colangelo is not the GM Toronto can count on in the stage the Raptors are currently in, the hard part is searching for a replacement.

    ... Although, some of you might just throw up your hands and say, "Well just about anybody would be better than this garbage!!!" and you'd probably be right. Still, the Raptors don't need a less bad GM; they need an average to good one or we'll just be trashing the new GM in a few years.
    You have to be optimistic that MANY Gm's can't be worse than 5 straight lottery seasons.....EVEN IF...you have to fire them quickly! You won't get a stud GM while being afraid to get rid of your horrible GM. I'm not at all afraid of the future (new GM). I'm actually scared that BC will set this franchise back more than 3 years before he leaves!

    I have nightmares that when he's done with us..... our situation will be soooo bad that no real GM will want to come here. I would be fine in handing the reigns to Stefanski for now UNTIL we can fine a permanent replacement. Who knows.....maybe Ed Stefanski can be that guy.

    I'm currently on the "FIRE BC IMMEDIATELY!!!" bandwagon

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  21. #56
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    People voting to keep BC are like women in an abusive relationship, it's like they can't believe anyone else would want them so they stay with the scumbag because hey it could be worse.

    We've missed the playoffs 5 years in a row and haven't drafted in the top 3 in 6 years.....it can't get worse.

    I think that needs to be repeated
    IT CAN'T GET WORSE!

  22. #57
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I know what you mean by what you're saying, but I'm not sure it applies to the Toronto Raptors. This isn't like where you have Albert Einstein writing out a mathematical proof and you don't want to interrupt his work. You're worried that if you replace him halfway, no matter how brilliant the next guy you bring in is, he might not be able to finish the work.



    In the example of the Toronto Raptors, there is no "b" option as seen above. There is only "a". You can bring in a chimpanzee and it will most likely do a better job at completing the task than Bryan Colangelo.
    Legally it does not apply to the Toronto Raptors or any body for that matter. Morally it does. It's not about being worried or afraid of replacing BC, it's about being fair. I don't know what was spoken between Peddie and BC when the extension was given but it's safe to assume that the following was MLSE's stand- if reasonable improvement in the 'rebuilding' was shown and it seemed like the team was on the verge of making the play-offs, his option would be picked up. I think the team could be a little better but where it stands is not bad and he deserves another year.

    I have been a sports fan particularly of Toronto teams and I've been hearing "anybody can do a better job than JP, John Furgn Jr, Burke, Babcock and so on and so forth" for a song time. In fact I've said it myself at times. The truth though is that 'it's easier said than done'.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  23. #58
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I have been a sports fan particularly of Toronto teams and I've been hearing "anybody can do a better job than JP, John Furgn Jr, Burke, Babcock and so on and so forth" for a song time. In fact I've said it myself at times. The truth though is that 'it's easier said than done'.
    Worked well enough for the Leafs

  24. #59
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    You have to be optimistic that MANY Gm's can't be worse than 5 straight lottery seasons.....EVEN IF...you have to fire them quickly! You won't get a stud GM while being afraid to get rid of your horrible GM. I'm not at all afraid of the future (new GM). I'm actually scared that BC will set this franchise back more than 3 years before he leaves!

    I have nightmares that when he's done with us..... our situation will be soooo bad that no real GM will want to come here. I would be fine in handing the reigns to Stefanski for now UNTIL we can fine a permanent replacement. Who knows.....maybe Ed Stefanski can be that guy.

    I'm currently on the "FIRE BC IMMEDIATELY!!!" bandwagon
    Just to be clear, I would love to see Colangelo gone as well. I just think you cannot hire just anybody to replace him. You really, really have to be diligent and find a GM that fits instead of settling for just anybody because "they cannot be worse than Colangelo". Seems like an obvious statement, I know, but I think a lot of fans and writers ask "Should Colangelo be fired?", answer yes then pat themselves on the back... but they forget to ask "Who should be hired next?".

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't think any player is worth max money UNLESS they can be built around as a franchise cornerstone. That's one of the factors that I believe separates a 'max' player from a 'good player who's well paid'.
    In most cases, you're right but there are some players who are in between 'good players' and 'franchise players'. Unfortunately these guys command max money. Bosh, Amare, Gay are some that come to mind. From a GM's point of view, if there's one guy of the three named I'd have on my team even for max money, it's Bosh.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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