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Thread: My Off-Season Targets

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Obviously...after all, I have been saying for weeks that this kind of trade is the only thing this team should be trying to do (other than getting rid of Bargs). There is always risk. The other player I want the Raps to keep an eye on in the back of my mind is Rajon Rondo ....Does Boston look like a team ready for a quick rebuild? A couple of old stars, a decent player in Green, and then just a bunch of mostly average players. I don't think so, and think they could blow it up soon. But Rondo also has risk now, with his knee injury.

    Really my only piont is that Love's injury history is worrisome, because he hasn't had a major issue but always seems to miss time. Is it bad luck or is he a glass man? Hopefully just bad luck.
    I think JV and Love would be a huge improvement, but something to consider is that reflecting on the more dominant big men combo's of recent years:

    Ben and Rasheed Wallace
    Robinson & Duncan
    Garnett and Perkins

    Today's NBA:
    Perkins and Ibaka
    Hibbert and D.West
    Gasol & Z-Bo

    The thing I find these combo's have in common are that both the C and PF and really good defensvie players with maybe the exceptio of Z-Bo, but he's not slouch either. Love is okay and an upgrade from Bargs defensively, but no where near as good as Amir. While it would be an upgrade on offense, I personally don't think it's a match made in heaven to pair up JV and Love. Don't get me wrong if the offer was on the table I'd do it in a heart beat (depending on what it costs us) because it's an upgrade from what we have right now, but I could think of a few other players I'd like to see JV paired up with ahead of Love.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I think JV and Love would be a huge improvement, but something to consider is that reflecting on the more dominant big men combo's of recent years:

    Ben and Rasheed Wallace
    Robinson & Duncan
    Garnett and Perkins

    Today's NBA:
    Perkins and Ibaka
    Hibbert and D.West
    Gasol & Z-Bo

    The thing I find these combo's have in common are that both the C and PF and really good defensvie players with maybe the exceptio of Z-Bo, but he's not slouch either. Love is okay and an upgrade from Bargs defensively, but no where near as good as Amir. While it would be an upgrade on offense, I personally don't think it's a match made in heaven to pair up JV and Love. Don't get me wrong if the offer was on the table I'd do it in a heart beat (depending on what it costs us) because it's an upgrade from what we have right now, but I could think of a few other players I'd like to see JV paired up with ahead of Love.
    The difference between the first group and the second group? All 3 pairs in the first won rings...all 3 in the second have proven very little so far (frankly Perkins and Ibaka is not a dominant combo...Perkins is only semi-functional the last couple of seasons). I'll take the more talented pairing most of the time. While Love's D is perhaps not the best, JV is the one protecting the paint, and both are excellent rebounders. Love is arguably the best rebounder in the game. I don't think the drop off on D is that big...

    And there is the possibility that a deal wouldn't necessarily cost Amir either, and I think as a trio, they would be arguably the best big man squad in the league. There was no part of the scenario (focusing on Demar's value in such a deal) that suggested Amir can't be kept, and he could still easily play 25-30 mpg behind those 2 guys.

    *And on the bold...I have a very hard time thinking of guys I'd prefer to have over Love beside JV. Keep in mind that I'm thinking of a frontcourt to build around for years (in the best case), not just a 2 year stopgap. That rules out a lot of guys who could fit well now, but maybe not for when JV hits his prime (such as a West or Randolph). Horford is one of the only ones I can think of as being on a similar level...and I wouldn't take him over Love, but I'd probably be just as happy, even if it would be a 2nd choice.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon May 6th, 2013 at 12:33 PM.

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  4. #63
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what your point was in pointing out the difference between the first group having a ring and the second one not...are you saying there is a difference in style of play in todays NBA?

    I guess it comes down to a matter of preference in style of play when discussing whom you would want to pair with JV, but for me I would rather have a better defender. It's really impressive to me when you can consistently keep teams scoring below their average. I don't think you can get that with Love as much as say Horford. You'll have a good chance at outscoring teams, but once you get to the playoffs and defense is the focus you don't have as much of an advantage with Love as you would a good defender imo. If you can stop the other team from scoring then you'll always have a chance at winning.

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    Forgot to add my list of bigs I'd rather pair up JV with over Love:

    Horford
    Noah
    Tyson Chandler (I think he still has a few really good years)
    Ibaka

    There's more, but these are the ones that first popped into my mind. You'll note that a couple aren't very sexy names in comparison to Love, but you get an idea of how much more I would value another defensive minded big over Love. I've been saying for a while that I think the Raptors should create an area of dominance on their roster and then build around it. JV is one half of what could be a dominant, defensive big man pairing but I imo putting Love next to him just makes them good, not dominant. As in they won't be best scoring bigs in the league and they won't be the best defensive bigs in the league either. They will be somewhere between.

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  7. #65
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what your point was in pointing out the difference between the first group having a ring and the second one not...are you saying there is a difference in style of play in todays NBA?

    I guess it comes down to a matter of preference in style of play when discussing whom you would want to pair with JV, but for me I would rather have a better defender. It's really impressive to me when you can consistently keep teams scoring below their average. I don't think you can get that with Love as much as say Horford. You'll have a good chance at outscoring teams, but once you get to the playoffs and defense is the focus you don't have as much of an advantage with Love as you would a good defender imo. If you can stop the other team from scoring then you'll always have a chance at winning.
    I guess my point is that the second pairings aren't really great models.

    The ones in the first list, if they were formed using any strategy, it was to add a franchise altering player. They all happen to be big men (Sheed, Duncan, Garnett), but only Sheed was really filling a dire need in Detroit, as they really needed a big who could score next to Big Ben. They were all good defensive pairings, and so are the ones from the second group, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that works, especially since, once again, some of those pairings have not won anything yet.

    If you're going to look at more current pairings in terms of winning big men....there are basically just 2, other than the aforementioned KG and Perkins...
    -Dirk and Tyson Chandler....Dirk is hardly a first class defensive player
    -Bynum and Pau......Pau is rarely called a great defender. Maybe closer to average, give or take,depending who you ask. Bynum uses his size pretty well, but some would say (ok, I would say) he underperforms on D a lot.

    I see JV and Love looking closer to these pairings than any of the ones you listed, and they have championships. Pairing the most talented pieces possible seems to be the best recipe, regardless of strengths, as different dynamics are proven. That is also why I'd be ok with Horford. I think he is underrated, and is one of the top five 2-way bigs in the game. He is better defensively than Love. He's also worse offensively (maybe a blessing depending on JV's growth?) and on the glass. He is a proven leader though, which is a huge plus, and the reason I'd even consider him up there with Love.

    I've been thinking about it, and I haven't even been able to think of a 3rd name I'd put up there with Love and Horford to pair with JV.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon May 6th, 2013 at 02:06 PM.

  8. #66
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Forgot to add my list of bigs I'd rather pair up JV with over Love:

    Horford
    Noah
    Tyson Chandler (I think he still has a few really good years)
    Ibaka

    There's more, but these are the ones that first popped into my mind. You'll note that a couple aren't very sexy names in comparison to Love, but you get an idea of how much more I would value another defensive minded big over Love. I've been saying for a while that I think the Raptors should create an area of dominance on their roster and then build around it. JV is one half of what could be a dominant, defensive big man pairing but I imo putting Love next to him just makes them good, not dominant. As in they won't be best scoring bigs in the league and they won't be the best defensive bigs in the league either. They will be somewhere between.
    Of your 4 choices, only Ibaka and Horford can be thought of as natural PFs. And because of the rosters they've been on, they both end up playing a lot of C.

    I don't like playing 2 guys together who are used to playing the same position. It is not the best strategy and in none of the pairings you mentioned before is that the case...As good as Noah and Chandler are defensively, I don't think either of them are fit to play PF moving forward.

    I'm ok with Ibaka, but as much as I love his skills, I've always found him inconsistent, and felt unsure about his mental approach. He's young, so that might not be a real issue, but I don't think I could take him over the more talented Love, or the stronger leader in Horford. I can understand him as a choice though.

  9. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    I also don't see how JV/Love would be such a great combo. I really believe that anyone paired with JV should have above average defensive skills. If we are going to depend on JV to be a scorer, then I don't see any reason to be so dependent on him defensively. I do believe he can be a good two-way player, but at this point I'd like to see him focus more on offense than defense during games. And correct me if I'm wrong, but neither JV or Love have really great speed and/or footwork. Good perhaps, but in terms of defensive rotations and switches I want to see a big guy that can move his feet quickly to challenge shots and draw charges. Amir can do that, I'm not sure Love can.

    So, if it's true that Love is injury prone and that his defense is poor, then I think we should avoid him. Furthermore, do we really need another scorer in the starting lineup? Even if we were to move DD to bring him in, we still have 4 of our best scorers in the starting lineup...I just don't like that setup.

  10. #68
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Of your 4 choices, only Ibaka and Horford can be thought of as natural PFs. And because of the rosters they've been on, they both end up playing a lot of C.

    I don't like playing 2 guys together who are used to playing the same position. It is not the best strategy and in none of the pairings you mentioned before is that the case...As good as Noah and Chandler are defensively, I don't think either of them are fit to play PF moving forward. I'm ok with Ibaka, but as much as I love his skills, I've always found him inconsistent, and felt unsure about his mental approach. He's young, so that might not be a real issue, but I don't think I could take him over the more talented Love, or the stronger leader in Horford. I can understand him as a choice though.
    No disrespect intended, but you not liking it doesn't equate to losing basketball. I mean if it works who cares. Garnett played mostly PF, but is now playing really effectively as a C, Duncan also goes back and fourth.

    Both Noah and Horford played PF/C in college and when Asik was in Chicago Noah played PF and when Zaza was with ATL Horford was PF then...if you're a baller and have talent it's not going to hurt you one way or another.

    Anyways, not trying to change your mind, just stating my case for a defensive player over Love. Carry on sir, you've made your point(s).

  11. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Of your 4 choices, only Ibaka and Horford can be thought of as natural PFs. And because of the rosters they've been on, they both end up playing a lot of C.

    I don't like playing 2 guys together who are used to playing the same position. It is not the best strategy and in none of the pairings you mentioned before is that the case...As good as Noah and Chandler are defensively, I don't think either of them are fit to play PF moving forward.

    I'm ok with Ibaka, but as much as I love his skills, I've always found him inconsistent, and felt unsure about his mental approach. He's young, so that might not be a real issue, but I don't think I could take him over the more talented Love, or the stronger leader in Horford. I can understand him as a choice though.
    I would totally take Ibaka over Love or Horford. Scoring wise he is inconsistent, but that often depends on matchups as he isn't a strong offensive player anyways. But he wouldn't be brought in to score. And sometimes it seems he is weak rebounding. But both scoring and rebounding may sometimes be lacking because he spends so much time filling the paint, blocking shots or just trying to adjust shots in the paint providing another player with a better opportunity to grab the board. I think he is the 3rd most important player to the Thunder's success. I also think he is motivated, young, improving and he wants to win.

    I think a JV/Ibaka frontline would be incredible, and also impossible.

    I agree with not playing 2 guys together that play the same position. Not sure Noah and Chandler would be good next to JV. And Horford has played alot of C, but I think he is a better option than the other two. Still, I would take Ibaka.

  12. #70
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    No disrespect intended, but you not liking it doesn't equate to losing basketball. I mean if it works who cares. Garnett played mostly PF, but is now playing really effectively as a C, Duncan also goes back and fourth.

    Both Noah and Horford played PF/C in college and when Asik was in Chicago Noah played PF and when Zaza was with ATL Horford was PF then...if you're a baller and have talent it's not going to hurt you one way or another.

    Anyways, not trying to change your mind, just stating my case for a defensive player over Love. Carry on sir, you've made your point(s).
    I don't like it because I can't think of an instance where it really equated to winning (championship) basketball.

    The closest is Duncan + Robinson. But Duncan was comfortable as a natural PF coming into the league, who just happened to have the height of a C. Even now, with this bounceback year, it has been be rediscovering his quickness and playing more at PF again, helped by the fact that Splitter has also had a good year.

    With Noah, if he was still coming out as fresh as he was after college, I wouldn't doubt his ability to play PF. But he doesn't look like he could stand that as a regular role anymore. Horford was the natural PF in college. He's been screwed in Atlanta by their unwillingness to get a true C. PF is where he belongs.

    I don't think it's a problem to favour a defensive player. But I would like to pair a PF with JV, and not a C. Also, again, there's nothing to say that Amir can't stay, and then if JV and Amir are two of your bigs, I wouldn't mind the other one being a good offensive player, which Love and Horford are.

  13. #71
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Chris Bosh would be the perfect fit here now. Just saying

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    If we can get Jimmer and Jason Thompsons for Bargs + Kleiza, that' would be nice, perhaps add Ross or Fields to acquire T.Evans (who could be our 6th man comes off the bench for DeRozan).

    Lowry/Jimmer/PG
    DeRozan/Evans/Andersen?
    Gay/Fields/
    Amir/Acy
    Val/Thompsons/Gray

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    Quote tenforthewin wrote: View Post
    If we can get Jimmer and Jason Thompsons for Bargs + Kleiza, that' would be nice, perhaps add Ross or Fields to acquire T.Evans (who could be our 6th man comes off the bench for DeRozan).

    Lowry/Jimmer/PG
    DeRozan/Evans/Andersen?
    Gay/Fields/
    Amir/Acy
    Val/Thompsons/Gray
    Tyreke Evans is a restricted free agent this summer.

    Also, this deal sucks for Sacramento.

  16. #74
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Hahahaha....Wolves fire David Kahn, and rumours are funny. Help resolve friction with one player and create it with another. Maybe we should be keeping an eye on Rubio, not Love.

    via Ric Bucher:

    The Timberwolves' relationship with Kevin Love will undoubtedly improve with the ouster of David Kahn, but how will
    it impact Ricky Rubio? Sources say the Rubio family is disappointed in the decision, largely because Kahn is the one who stuck his neck out and drafted Rubio knowing he couldn't come over right away and did a lot of the legwork to expedite the start of Rubio's NBA career. Maybe it blows over -- Rubio wouldn't be the first player who disagreed with a decision yet eventually put it behind him -- but it bears watching.
    http://sulia.com/channel/basketball/...source=twitter

  17. #75
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    BC stuck his neck out and drafted JV and waited a season just throwing that out there!

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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Chris Bosh would be the perfect fit here now. Just saying
    Stretch 4 (kinda) with JV manning the middle. Damn.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Stretch 4 (kinda) with JV manning the middle. Damn.
    *Cough* Bargnani *Cough*
    Lol.

  20. #78
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    Quote JordanMariam14 wrote: View Post
    *Cough* Bargnani *Cough*
    Lol.
    At least Bosh actually plays in games.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  21. #79
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    BC stuck his neck out and drafted JV and waited a season just throwing that out there!
    I don't know if you can say that. BC didn't really stick his neck out. JV fell into his lap. By BC's own account they didn't expect him to be available. And JV's contract was never thought of to be an issue because by most accounts he needed another year overseas, and then had an easy buyout.

    IT's not the same with Rubio. His draft stock fell in the season leading up to the draft, largely because of issues regarding his Euro contract (length, buyout). Rubio was often talked as a likely #1 overall pick (until Griffin emerged to take that spot). His contract issues hurt him, and it was unsure how far he would drop...even falling from 2nd to 5th is a fair amount of money lost. Kahn bent over backwards to try and make Rubio happy and bring him to Minnesota from the moment he drafted him. Really, the better comparison would be how BC stuck his neck out to draft Bargnani first (in terms of GM's preference for/treatment of a player, not comparing the players themselves).

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