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Tom Thibodeau: Raptor players would be wise to listen to a winner

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  • #31
    I do not believe mental toughness can be taught, it's all on the individual, I actually have Lowry's attitude, and this past season, it cost me a starting spot (I was the starter all year until coach got tired of me pulling out, or not pushing through), and I became a 6th, 7th guy off the bench, and quite frankly I was very pissed. For the record, I did earn some recognition and awards, but I ended off the season poorly because of it.

    I have been trying to become a mentally stronger individual, trying to finish runs without stopping to walk, giving 100% effort for the time you are practicing, etc, etc. I rely too often on motivation from others, and that means I'm dependent upon others to help my mind want me to be successful.

    Motivation, and coaches words are ways that help you want to get that goal, but it's really all up to you to get used to it, or just put aside all the pussying out, and bitching and just do the damn job.

    Maybe you have been taught by a coach, or a significant other to have mental toughness, but this is just my experience. Other's words are nothing but guidelines to me, my decisions is what shows whether I'm learning it.
    Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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    • #32
      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
      A Tough Coach is one who can makes a player "want it" as opposed to the Coach who can't make a player "want it". Toughness unlike shooting, rebounding, passing etc. is not a talent. It's a 'quality' that needs to be taught. Either by self or Coach.

      If a Coach had Vince and Kobe on his team, Kobe need not be taught 'toughness' because he teaches himself. Vince on the other hand is not self-motivated. It(motivation) needs to come from outside. Now, will Vince at any point of time be as good as Kobe? Of course not but the Coach can ensure that he's tougher than his natural self.
      I think you have it backwards. Skills can be taught, but passion and desire cannot. I can learn to shoot or rebound, but 'wanting it bad' is something you have to be born with.

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      • #33
        Exactly. A coach's job doesn't involve motivating. I think some people are confusing motivation with encouragement. Motivation is desire and a willingness to do something. A coach can't make you want it, he can only encourage you to want it and to try and teach you why it is important to want it and to do what is required to fully commit.

        A good coach gets the most out of his players but even the best coach can't will someone to want it. That's why you rarely see the best of the best actively seeking out really troubled players. They sometimes take a flier, but taking a flier tends to involve little risk(ie: no CBA related penalties if they cut him; no guarantees.).

        The Spurs, for example, rarely take missteps in the the character category. Stephen Jackson was a misstep but nobody is perfect...

        RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
        I do not believe mental toughness can be taught, it's all on the individual, I actually have Lowry's attitude, and this past season, it cost me a starting spot (I was the starter all year until coach got tired of me pulling out, or not pushing through), and I became a 6th, 7th guy off the bench, and quite frankly I was very pissed. For the record, I did earn some recognition and awards, but I ended off the season poorly because of it.

        I have been trying to become a mentally stronger individual, trying to finish runs without stopping to walk, giving 100% effort for the time you are practicing, etc, etc. I rely too often on motivation from others, and that means I'm dependent upon others to help my mind want me to be successful.
        That's really great insight Reuben. Thanks for sharing that. Do you feel that the leaders on your team could do more to keep you going? Have you ever reached out to them to determine the source of their drive?

        I find if I really enjoy something I'm more likely to pursue it aggressively. There are other things that motivate me but enjoyment is the strongest.

        Here's an example to put this into context:

        Bargnani doesn't enjoy banging in the paint, that's clear. So he's not motivated to do it. Coaches have reasoned with him, presenting logical reasons why it's important but he clearly dislikes doing the dirty work and so he's not motivated to do it. This leads to highly inconsistent play in the paint for him. Coaches can't make him enjoy it and so I'm afraid he's not been reached and never will. It's on him and him alone now. All that can be reasonably done has been done.
        Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 23, 2013, 11:14 PM.

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        • #34
          Its like teaching a guy to have a motor it cant be done. If we could simply make Bargnani intense like Amir it would have been done already. I'd also like to add whoever a players coach is entering the NBA shapes him his entire career, Bargnani was molly coddled If casey had him from the Go I think he would be a much better player today.

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          • #35
            Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
            No they hired Dwane Casey.
            You sure fooled me. Why don't you go back and look at the threads in here when he was hired?

            Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
            I'd also like to add whoever a players coach is entering the NBA shapes him his entire career, Bargnani was molly coddled If casey had him from the Go I think he would be a much better player today.
            Based on what I've witnessed I'm not totally sold on that. I mean Vince had in my opinion the best coach to ever to grace the Raptors' presence, Butch Carter. He was a tough as nails kind of man. He also had Oakley serving as a mentor to the young guys, he pushed Vince a lot. Even called the man out in press conferences. Those guys got axed and Vince no longer had someone on him 24/7. We know what happened next. For the record, I don't think Butch and Oak could have continued to be effective forever, that was a short term fix. They kept Vince on edge but at some point it would have lost it's effectiveness; Vince didn't want to play tough.
            Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 23, 2013, 11:25 PM.

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            • #36
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              That's really great insight Reuben. Thanks for sharing that. Do you feel that the leaders on your team could do more to keep you going? Have you ever reached out to them to determine the source of their drive?

              I find if I really enjoy something I'm more likely to pursue it aggressively. There are other things that motivate me but enjoyment is the strongest.
              That's the thing, I WAS the leader of the team, I didn't want to earn it though, I wanted it handed to me. The reason I was the leader was because I was the point guard, the one with the best skill-sets, and I'm not trying to come off cocky, but I know the reason why I was the leader, and appointed as one.

              To be honest with you, my other teammates always communicated with me, they always had something to say. "Hey, c'mon, just keep pushing! We're almost there." Something like that or similar, but at one point, it sounded like a broken record to me. They always had to kind of, lift me up, or sort of, drag me to play and practice with just as much effort.

              I think my attitude comes off as:

              "I'm a really good player, so since I'm better than all of these guys, I'm going to get my spot, minutes, play calls, opportunities, etc."

              I've always had trouble in earning it, playing and working hard for every, single, thing. I always lacked putting in the work when it was time to individually, I didn't want to do it, mainly because it's going back to me thinking I'm the best. When I did not get what I wanted, I would not work hard, or earn it back. I knew what their drives were, some of them just want to be the best, some of them are just naturally born to work hard, and some don't complain, talk, and just do what's told of them. Me? I'm a rebel at times, I will get in trouble with the coaches, but it's all in good intention, just it might not be the proper way, fundamental way, etc. I wanted things to be seen through my eyes.

              To your point about doing something because you like it, doesn't necessarily match up with me, I love defending, I get joy stripping the ball out of player's hands, shot clock violations, I think of myself as a very good defender as well, I take pride in opposing teams/players not scoring on me, or on the team in general. Rebounding, getting elbows in the face, etc. I like getting into the middle of things, I might actually be in the middle of things far too often. I lead the school district in technical fouls, too many altercations (smack-talk), and got too offended if I thought an opposing player was disrespecting my teammate. Quite frankly, I have a bad attitude, and this type of toughness is different to mental toughness.

              It's just, when I get tired, and or I'm not defending him right, or in the right spot offensively, and I've got the coaches yelling in my ear, I get upset, and or I just lose the effort and focus I originally had. I rarely ever regain it, and that's why I got benched.

              I have to learn to be more coachable, not come off so selfish, and put excuses aside and just get the job done. My attitude has always been - and my coaches tell me - the reason why my full potential/production isn't consistent. I'm too selfish and I wanted everything handed on a silver platter.
              Last edited by ReubenJRD; Wed Apr 24, 2013, 01:39 AM.
              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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              • #37
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                I think you have it backwards. Skills can be taught, but passion and desire cannot. I can learn to shoot or rebound, but 'wanting it bad' is something you have to be born with.
                Talent is something a person is born with. How far he/she goes with his/her talent, depends on how much hard work is put in. A Coach/Instructor/Teacher can help develop talent but for that to happen, basic in-born talent must be there.

                Passion/Desire and Mental toughness are two different things. The former has to do with 'Love for something' and the later has to do with 'Attitude'.

                Passion is a deep LOVE for a certain thing. For example, Basketball is Lebron's passion.

                Mental Toughness is a 'never say die' ATTITUDE. For example, Lebron settled for a jump shot as the tough/persistent defender did not allow him to attack the basket.

                Some Coaches set very high standards of 'toughness'. They do not tolerate 'lukewarmness' and are very demanding. Players who play for them are expected to raise the level of their game. Popovich and Thibodeau are good examples. Other Coaches have different approaches. Phil Jackson is a good strategist, Mike D'toni is offence oriented and so on. The point is, they don't rely on 'toughness'.

                The above is stated to make my point and not to play 'teacher'. Please excuse me if I sound like one.
                Attitude Is A Choice.

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                • #38
                  Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                  Its like teaching a guy to have a motor it cant be done. If we could simply make Bargnani intense like Amir it would have been done already. I'd also like to add whoever a players coach is entering the NBA shapes him his entire career, Bargnani was molly coddled If casey had him from the Go I think he would be a much better player today.
                  Just to make the point, if Bargnani was drafted by SA, he would've had a different ATTITUDE today.

                  Old habits die hard and obviously he's picked up some bad habits but I believe that even Bargnani can be changed by a Coach who demands a high level of TOUGHNESS.
                  Attitude Is A Choice.

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                  • #39
                    Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                    Just to make the point, if Bargnani was drafted by SA, he would've had a different ATTITUDE today.

                    Old habits die hard and obviously he's picked up some bad habits but I believe that even Bargnani can be changed by a Coach who demands a high level of TOUGHNESS.

                    Ettore Messina was pretty tough and Bargnani thrived under him.

                    I don't think Bargnani LOVES the game of basketball and I think he needs someone to push him. Coddling in Toronto turned him in to a jellyfish.... and not one of those badass most poisonous creatures in the world jellyfish.

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                    • #40
                      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      Talent is something a person is born with. How far he/she goes with his/her talent, depends on how much hard work is put in. A Coach/Instructor/Teacher can help develop talent but for that to happen, basic in-born talent must be there.

                      Passion/Desire and Mental toughness are two different things. The former has to do with 'Love for something' and the later has to do with 'Attitude'.

                      Passion is a deep LOVE for a certain thing. For example, Basketball is Lebron's passion.

                      Mental Toughness is a 'never say die' ATTITUDE. For example, Lebron settled for a jump shot as the tough/persistent defender did not allow him to attack the basket.

                      Some Coaches set very high standards of 'toughness'. They do not tolerate 'lukewarmness' and are very demanding. Players who play for them are expected to raise the level of their game. Popovich and Thibodeau are good examples. Other Coaches have different approaches. Phil Jackson is a good strategist, Mike D'toni is offence oriented and so on. The point is, they don't rely on 'toughness'.

                      The above is stated to make my point and not to play 'teacher'. Please excuse me if I sound like one.
                      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      Just to make the point, if Bargnani was drafted by SA, he would've had a different ATTITUDE today.

                      Old habits die hard and obviously he's picked up some bad habits but I believe that even Bargnani can be changed by a Coach who demands a high level of TOUGHNESS.
                      I do agree that there's obviously a certain amount of talent that a person is born with, but it takes hardwork and commitment to realize it to its fullest. The passion and desire to put in the necessary work - ie: drive, passion, desire - is something that I believe we're also born with. A coach can motivate/encourage/push a person, but without that internal ambition, even the most effective coach will eventually be tuned out. Ultimately it's up to the individual to want it bad enough.

                      You see examples of it all the time, whether it's in little league or professional sports. Player A has more talent, but less desire. Player B has less talent and more desire. Both players have the same coach, receiving the same motivation. Quite often Player B will wind up being the 'better' player, because relentless determination can make his lesser talent more impactful and provides him with more beneficial intangibles. All major sports have seen very talented players wash-out of the league because they didn't have the desire to be the best.

                      When you talk of 'toughness' and the coach's ability to influence it, I personally think that's actually 'effort'. A coach can motivate a player to put in more effort in short bursts, for a time, but I don't believe a coach can change a player's underlying attitude/passion/commitment/dedication/desire.

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                      • #41
                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        You see examples of it all the time, whether it's in little league or professional sports. Player A has more talent, but less desire. Player B has less talent and more desire. Both players have the same coach, receiving the same motivation. Quite often Player B will wind up being the 'better' player, because relentless determination can make his lesser talent more impactful and provides him with more beneficial intangibles. All major sports have seen very talented players wash-out of the league because they didn't have the desire to be the best.

                        When you talk of 'toughness' and the coach's ability to influence it, I personally think that's actually 'effort'. A coach can motivate a player to put in more effort in short bursts, for a time, but I don't believe a coach can change a player's underlying attitude/passion/commitment/dedication/desire.
                        Reply to 1st paragraph above:
                        No argument at all. Success does not depend on the amount of talent but the amount of hard work and determination. Totally agreed.

                        Reply to 2nd paragraph above:
                        I see it slightly differently. 'Toughness' is the result of 'effort'. I believe a Coach can successfully implement a CULTURE of 'Toughness' wherein seemingly ordinary players can raise the level of their game by a change in attitude, commitment, dedication and desire.
                        Attitude Is A Choice.

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                        • #42
                          This discussion reminds me of the iceberg of McCleland, which is somewhat like this:



                          (Couldn't find a better picture this quickly - and I am a bit lazy)

                          The further below the waterline the further ingrained 'things' are in our personality and the harder they are to change. This doesn't mean they can't be changed, but the subject has to know he has to change and has to have a willingness to change and has to be active in 'excercises' to change. This is based on constructivism a lot. Personally I think you have to take biological and social-biological factors into account. With social-biological I mean the interaction between social factors and biological factors which lead to changes in biological factors. Environmental influences have an impact on our biological structures; they can change our brain. These are normally extremely hard to change.

                          As far as Bargnani is concerned, someone mentioned that he might not have that a high of a (basketball) iq (sorry, I can't find who it was). I agree with that and I think it's visible in his problems with team defense. I also think it's visible in his offense, where he has trouble reacting to the defense except for a very few basic patterns. It seems like he needs very directive coaching. He needs very strict expectations and a very strict role because he isn't able to actively conjur them up himself in game situations. He probably also needs a lot of practise in patters to automate how to act in certain situations (and how to get your legs into your shot...). If he can't act out of pre-existing patterns and/or out of a particular role in certain situations he freezes up and has no clue what to do and just stands there.

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                          • #43
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Ettore Messina was pretty tough and Bargnani thrived under him.

                            I don't think Bargnani LOVES the game of basketball and I think he needs someone to push him. Coddling in Toronto turned him in to a jellyfish.... and not one of those badass most poisonous creatures in the world jellyfish.
                            I think Bargnani has reached a point where he's overwhelmed by all the criticism and negativity surrounding him. It's adversely affecting him. To regain his confidence, change of scenery is best for him.
                            Attitude Is A Choice.

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                            • #44
                              isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                              We've seen this movie already. When Lowry went down early this season, Jose took his starting job permanently. Kyle's play plummeted. I really don't want to see that again.
                              i meant coach
                              @sweatpantsjer

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                              • #45
                                Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                                I think Bargnani has reached a point where he's overwhelmed by all the criticism and negativity surrounding him. It's adversely affecting him. To regain his confidence, change of scenery is best for him.
                                Now - absolutely.

                                My comment was dating back to 2006.

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