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Thread: Tom Thibodeau: Raptor players would be wise to listen to a winner

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    A bit misleading.. for some reason I thought Tom Thibodeau had said something about the Raptors. That does not appear to be the case.
    Sorry, not the intent.
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  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Thibodeau: "In all my years in this, one thing has never changed: You win with serious, tough-minded players. That never changes"

    Bargnani fits this bill perfectly.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  3. #23
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    This isn't on the players. The players are as advertised.

    This is on Colangelo:

    You want tough minded players? You go get tough minded players.

    What you do not do is try to turn soft players into something they're not. I think this should be well established here now.

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    It's great to have self motivated tough minded players but the Coach preaching and teaching toughness is what makes THE big difference. Even Bargnani can be tough under Thibodeau.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  6. #25
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Wait a second, didn't they just hire a "tough coach"? You bring Thibodeau here and suddenly the luster rubs off when he's given a bunch of square pegs and a round hole.

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wait a second, didn't they just hire a "tough coach"? You bring Thibodeau here and suddenly the luster rubs off when he's given a bunch of square pegs and a round hole.
    Exactly. Where do people get the idea that an NBA coach can make a 20+yo basketball player "tougher"? I don't even know if it's the case at the kids' sports level, let alone once a guy has been playing for 15+ years and has reached the top of his profession. Coaching can teach skills and maximize physical talent, but a person's mental makeup/approach to the game is not the same.

    If possible, I'd love to hear an example of this happening -- a coach preaching toughness and a player who started out with a "soft" reputation actually becoming tougher as a result.
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  9. #27
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wait a second, didn't they just hire a "tough coach"?
    No they hired Dwane Casey.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  10. #28
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I hate bringing up Vince because it can sometimes derail a thread but Vince Carter is a prime example of no one being able to teach "toughness" or instill "toughness". The player has to want it, he has to be motivated. He has to appreciate what it takes and why it's worth it. Leaders offer encouragement but they can't make a player "want it", that comes from within. It can mean the difference between Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant or for that matter, Andrea Bargnani and Arvydas Sabonis.

  11. #29
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I hate bringing up Vince because it can sometimes derail a thread but Vince Carter is a prime example of no one being able to teach "toughness" or instill "toughness". The player has to want it, he has to be motivated. He has to appreciate what it takes and why it's worth it. Leaders offer encouragement but they can't make a player "want it", that comes from within. It can mean the difference between Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant or for that matter, Andrea Bargnani and Arvydas Sabonis.
    A Tough Coach is one who can makes a player "want it" as opposed to the Coach who can't make a player "want it". Toughness unlike shooting, rebounding, passing etc. is not a talent. It's a 'quality' that needs to be taught. Either by self or Coach.

    If a Coach had Vince and Kobe on his team, Kobe need not be taught 'toughness' because he teaches himself. Vince on the other hand is not self-motivated. It(motivation) needs to come from outside. Now, will Vince at any point of time be as good as Kobe? Of course not but the Coach can ensure that he's tougher than his natural self.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  12. #30
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I disagree, I don't think toughness can be taught but I'm open minded. I think it was jimmie who asked for someone to present examples...

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    I do not believe mental toughness can be taught, it's all on the individual, I actually have Lowry's attitude, and this past season, it cost me a starting spot (I was the starter all year until coach got tired of me pulling out, or not pushing through), and I became a 6th, 7th guy off the bench, and quite frankly I was very pissed. For the record, I did earn some recognition and awards, but I ended off the season poorly because of it.

    I have been trying to become a mentally stronger individual, trying to finish runs without stopping to walk, giving 100% effort for the time you are practicing, etc, etc. I rely too often on motivation from others, and that means I'm dependent upon others to help my mind want me to be successful.

    Motivation, and coaches words are ways that help you want to get that goal, but it's really all up to you to get used to it, or just put aside all the pussying out, and bitching and just do the damn job.

    Maybe you have been taught by a coach, or a significant other to have mental toughness, but this is just my experience. Other's words are nothing but guidelines to me, my decisions is what shows whether I'm learning it.

  14. #32
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    A Tough Coach is one who can makes a player "want it" as opposed to the Coach who can't make a player "want it". Toughness unlike shooting, rebounding, passing etc. is not a talent. It's a 'quality' that needs to be taught. Either by self or Coach.

    If a Coach had Vince and Kobe on his team, Kobe need not be taught 'toughness' because he teaches himself. Vince on the other hand is not self-motivated. It(motivation) needs to come from outside. Now, will Vince at any point of time be as good as Kobe? Of course not but the Coach can ensure that he's tougher than his natural self.
    I think you have it backwards. Skills can be taught, but passion and desire cannot. I can learn to shoot or rebound, but 'wanting it bad' is something you have to be born with.

  15. #33
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Exactly. A coach's job doesn't involve motivating. I think some people are confusing motivation with encouragement. Motivation is desire and a willingness to do something. A coach can't make you want it, he can only encourage you to want it and to try and teach you why it is important to want it and to do what is required to fully commit.

    A good coach gets the most out of his players but even the best coach can't will someone to want it. That's why you rarely see the best of the best actively seeking out really troubled players. They sometimes take a flier, but taking a flier tends to involve little risk(ie: no CBA related penalties if they cut him; no guarantees.).

    The Spurs, for example, rarely take missteps in the the character category. Stephen Jackson was a misstep but nobody is perfect...

    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I do not believe mental toughness can be taught, it's all on the individual, I actually have Lowry's attitude, and this past season, it cost me a starting spot (I was the starter all year until coach got tired of me pulling out, or not pushing through), and I became a 6th, 7th guy off the bench, and quite frankly I was very pissed. For the record, I did earn some recognition and awards, but I ended off the season poorly because of it.

    I have been trying to become a mentally stronger individual, trying to finish runs without stopping to walk, giving 100% effort for the time you are practicing, etc, etc. I rely too often on motivation from others, and that means I'm dependent upon others to help my mind want me to be successful.
    That's really great insight Reuben. Thanks for sharing that. Do you feel that the leaders on your team could do more to keep you going? Have you ever reached out to them to determine the source of their drive?

    I find if I really enjoy something I'm more likely to pursue it aggressively. There are other things that motivate me but enjoyment is the strongest.

    Here's an example to put this into context:

    Bargnani doesn't enjoy banging in the paint, that's clear. So he's not motivated to do it. Coaches have reasoned with him, presenting logical reasons why it's important but he clearly dislikes doing the dirty work and so he's not motivated to do it. This leads to highly inconsistent play in the paint for him. Coaches can't make him enjoy it and so I'm afraid he's not been reached and never will. It's on him and him alone now. All that can be reasonably done has been done.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 23rd, 2013 at 11:14 PM.

  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Its like teaching a guy to have a motor it cant be done. If we could simply make Bargnani intense like Amir it would have been done already. I'd also like to add whoever a players coach is entering the NBA shapes him his entire career, Bargnani was molly coddled If casey had him from the Go I think he would be a much better player today.

  17. #35
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    No they hired Dwane Casey.
    You sure fooled me. Why don't you go back and look at the threads in here when he was hired?

    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    I'd also like to add whoever a players coach is entering the NBA shapes him his entire career, Bargnani was molly coddled If casey had him from the Go I think he would be a much better player today.
    Based on what I've witnessed I'm not totally sold on that. I mean Vince had in my opinion the best coach to ever to grace the Raptors' presence, Butch Carter. He was a tough as nails kind of man. He also had Oakley serving as a mentor to the young guys, he pushed Vince a lot. Even called the man out in press conferences. Those guys got axed and Vince no longer had someone on him 24/7. We know what happened next. For the record, I don't think Butch and Oak could have continued to be effective forever, that was a short term fix. They kept Vince on edge but at some point it would have lost it's effectiveness; Vince didn't want to play tough.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 23rd, 2013 at 11:25 PM.

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  19. #36
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    That's really great insight Reuben. Thanks for sharing that. Do you feel that the leaders on your team could do more to keep you going? Have you ever reached out to them to determine the source of their drive?

    I find if I really enjoy something I'm more likely to pursue it aggressively. There are other things that motivate me but enjoyment is the strongest.
    That's the thing, I WAS the leader of the team, I didn't want to earn it though, I wanted it handed to me. The reason I was the leader was because I was the point guard, the one with the best skill-sets, and I'm not trying to come off cocky, but I know the reason why I was the leader, and appointed as one.

    To be honest with you, my other teammates always communicated with me, they always had something to say. "Hey, c'mon, just keep pushing! We're almost there." Something like that or similar, but at one point, it sounded like a broken record to me. They always had to kind of, lift me up, or sort of, drag me to play and practice with just as much effort.

    I think my attitude comes off as:

    "I'm a really good player, so since I'm better than all of these guys, I'm going to get my spot, minutes, play calls, opportunities, etc."

    I've always had trouble in earning it, playing and working hard for every, single, thing. I always lacked putting in the work when it was time to individually, I didn't want to do it, mainly because it's going back to me thinking I'm the best. When I did not get what I wanted, I would not work hard, or earn it back. I knew what their drives were, some of them just want to be the best, some of them are just naturally born to work hard, and some don't complain, talk, and just do what's told of them. Me? I'm a rebel at times, I will get in trouble with the coaches, but it's all in good intention, just it might not be the proper way, fundamental way, etc. I wanted things to be seen through my eyes.

    To your point about doing something because you like it, doesn't necessarily match up with me, I love defending, I get joy stripping the ball out of player's hands, shot clock violations, I think of myself as a very good defender as well, I take pride in opposing teams/players not scoring on me, or on the team in general. Rebounding, getting elbows in the face, etc. I like getting into the middle of things, I might actually be in the middle of things far too often. I lead the school district in technical fouls, too many altercations (smack-talk), and got too offended if I thought an opposing player was disrespecting my teammate. Quite frankly, I have a bad attitude, and this type of toughness is different to mental toughness.

    It's just, when I get tired, and or I'm not defending him right, or in the right spot offensively, and I've got the coaches yelling in my ear, I get upset, and or I just lose the effort and focus I originally had. I rarely ever regain it, and that's why I got benched.

    I have to learn to be more coachable, not come off so selfish, and put excuses aside and just get the job done. My attitude has always been - and my coaches tell me - the reason why my full potential/production isn't consistent. I'm too selfish and I wanted everything handed on a silver platter.
    Last edited by ReubenJRD; Wed Apr 24th, 2013 at 01:39 AM.

  20. #37
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think you have it backwards. Skills can be taught, but passion and desire cannot. I can learn to shoot or rebound, but 'wanting it bad' is something you have to be born with.
    Talent is something a person is born with. How far he/she goes with his/her talent, depends on how much hard work is put in. A Coach/Instructor/Teacher can help develop talent but for that to happen, basic in-born talent must be there.

    Passion/Desire and Mental toughness are two different things. The former has to do with 'Love for something' and the later has to do with 'Attitude'.

    Passion is a deep LOVE for a certain thing. For example, Basketball is Lebron's passion.

    Mental Toughness is a 'never say die' ATTITUDE. For example, Lebron settled for a jump shot as the tough/persistent defender did not allow him to attack the basket.

    Some Coaches set very high standards of 'toughness'. They do not tolerate 'lukewarmness' and are very demanding. Players who play for them are expected to raise the level of their game. Popovich and Thibodeau are good examples. Other Coaches have different approaches. Phil Jackson is a good strategist, Mike D'toni is offence oriented and so on. The point is, they don't rely on 'toughness'.

    The above is stated to make my point and not to play 'teacher'. Please excuse me if I sound like one.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Its like teaching a guy to have a motor it cant be done. If we could simply make Bargnani intense like Amir it would have been done already. I'd also like to add whoever a players coach is entering the NBA shapes him his entire career, Bargnani was molly coddled If casey had him from the Go I think he would be a much better player today.
    Just to make the point, if Bargnani was drafted by SA, he would've had a different ATTITUDE today.

    Old habits die hard and obviously he's picked up some bad habits but I believe that even Bargnani can be changed by a Coach who demands a high level of TOUGHNESS.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  22. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Just to make the point, if Bargnani was drafted by SA, he would've had a different ATTITUDE today.

    Old habits die hard and obviously he's picked up some bad habits but I believe that even Bargnani can be changed by a Coach who demands a high level of TOUGHNESS.

    Ettore Messina was pretty tough and Bargnani thrived under him.

    I don't think Bargnani LOVES the game of basketball and I think he needs someone to push him. Coddling in Toronto turned him in to a jellyfish.... and not one of those badass most poisonous creatures in the world jellyfish.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #40
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Talent is something a person is born with. How far he/she goes with his/her talent, depends on how much hard work is put in. A Coach/Instructor/Teacher can help develop talent but for that to happen, basic in-born talent must be there.

    Passion/Desire and Mental toughness are two different things. The former has to do with 'Love for something' and the later has to do with 'Attitude'.

    Passion is a deep LOVE for a certain thing. For example, Basketball is Lebron's passion.

    Mental Toughness is a 'never say die' ATTITUDE. For example, Lebron settled for a jump shot as the tough/persistent defender did not allow him to attack the basket.

    Some Coaches set very high standards of 'toughness'. They do not tolerate 'lukewarmness' and are very demanding. Players who play for them are expected to raise the level of their game. Popovich and Thibodeau are good examples. Other Coaches have different approaches. Phil Jackson is a good strategist, Mike D'toni is offence oriented and so on. The point is, they don't rely on 'toughness'.

    The above is stated to make my point and not to play 'teacher'. Please excuse me if I sound like one.
    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Just to make the point, if Bargnani was drafted by SA, he would've had a different ATTITUDE today.

    Old habits die hard and obviously he's picked up some bad habits but I believe that even Bargnani can be changed by a Coach who demands a high level of TOUGHNESS.
    I do agree that there's obviously a certain amount of talent that a person is born with, but it takes hardwork and commitment to realize it to its fullest. The passion and desire to put in the necessary work - ie: drive, passion, desire - is something that I believe we're also born with. A coach can motivate/encourage/push a person, but without that internal ambition, even the most effective coach will eventually be tuned out. Ultimately it's up to the individual to want it bad enough.

    You see examples of it all the time, whether it's in little league or professional sports. Player A has more talent, but less desire. Player B has less talent and more desire. Both players have the same coach, receiving the same motivation. Quite often Player B will wind up being the 'better' player, because relentless determination can make his lesser talent more impactful and provides him with more beneficial intangibles. All major sports have seen very talented players wash-out of the league because they didn't have the desire to be the best.

    When you talk of 'toughness' and the coach's ability to influence it, I personally think that's actually 'effort'. A coach can motivate a player to put in more effort in short bursts, for a time, but I don't believe a coach can change a player's underlying attitude/passion/commitment/dedication/desire.

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