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Thread: Tom Thibodeau: Raptor players would be wise to listen to a winner

  1. #41
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You see examples of it all the time, whether it's in little league or professional sports. Player A has more talent, but less desire. Player B has less talent and more desire. Both players have the same coach, receiving the same motivation. Quite often Player B will wind up being the 'better' player, because relentless determination can make his lesser talent more impactful and provides him with more beneficial intangibles. All major sports have seen very talented players wash-out of the league because they didn't have the desire to be the best.

    When you talk of 'toughness' and the coach's ability to influence it, I personally think that's actually 'effort'. A coach can motivate a player to put in more effort in short bursts, for a time, but I don't believe a coach can change a player's underlying attitude/passion/commitment/dedication/desire.
    Reply to 1st paragraph above:
    No argument at all. Success does not depend on the amount of talent but the amount of hard work and determination. Totally agreed.

    Reply to 2nd paragraph above:
    I see it slightly differently. 'Toughness' is the result of 'effort'. I believe a Coach can successfully implement a CULTURE of 'Toughness' wherein seemingly ordinary players can raise the level of their game by a change in attitude, commitment, dedication and desire.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    This discussion reminds me of the iceberg of McCleland, which is somewhat like this:



    (Couldn't find a better picture this quickly - and I am a bit lazy)

    The further below the waterline the further ingrained 'things' are in our personality and the harder they are to change. This doesn't mean they can't be changed, but the subject has to know he has to change and has to have a willingness to change and has to be active in 'excercises' to change. This is based on constructivism a lot. Personally I think you have to take biological and social-biological factors into account. With social-biological I mean the interaction between social factors and biological factors which lead to changes in biological factors. Environmental influences have an impact on our biological structures; they can change our brain. These are normally extremely hard to change.

    As far as Bargnani is concerned, someone mentioned that he might not have that a high of a (basketball) iq (sorry, I can't find who it was). I agree with that and I think it's visible in his problems with team defense. I also think it's visible in his offense, where he has trouble reacting to the defense except for a very few basic patterns. It seems like he needs very directive coaching. He needs very strict expectations and a very strict role because he isn't able to actively conjur them up himself in game situations. He probably also needs a lot of practise in patters to automate how to act in certain situations (and how to get your legs into your shot...). If he can't act out of pre-existing patterns and/or out of a particular role in certain situations he freezes up and has no clue what to do and just stands there.

  3. #43
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Ettore Messina was pretty tough and Bargnani thrived under him.

    I don't think Bargnani LOVES the game of basketball and I think he needs someone to push him. Coddling in Toronto turned him in to a jellyfish.... and not one of those badass most poisonous creatures in the world jellyfish.
    I think Bargnani has reached a point where he's overwhelmed by all the criticism and negativity surrounding him. It's adversely affecting him. To regain his confidence, change of scenery is best for him.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    We've seen this movie already. When Lowry went down early this season, Jose took his starting job permanently. Kyle's play plummeted. I really don't want to see that again.
    i meant coach
    @jerboat

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I think Bargnani has reached a point where he's overwhelmed by all the criticism and negativity surrounding him. It's adversely affecting him. To regain his confidence, change of scenery is best for him.
    Now - absolutely.

    My comment was dating back to 2006.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I think we should try waterboarding Bargnani and see how he plays next season. We haven't exhausted EVERY avenue.
    @jerboat

  7. #47
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    Let's get SVG.

  8. #48
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Motivation, and coaches words are ways that help you want to get that goal, but it's really all up to you to get used to it
    Sorry, while getting caught up in trying to make my point clearly, I overlooked some of the contents of your post.

    Can you do what the Coach expects? If what is expected is absolutely realistic and reasonable, of course you can. If the Coach didn't believe you can believe in yourself, he/she wouldn't expect it from you.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  9. #49
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Sorry, while getting caught up in trying to make my point clearly, I overlooked some of the contents of your post.

    Can you do what the Coach expects? If what is expected is absolutely realistic and reasonable, of course you can. If the Coach didn't believe you can believe in yourself, he/she wouldn't expect it from you.
    Of course I (or whoever) can reach those expectations, which is going back to, do you want to put in the work to get there?

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I would love to have a proven coach next in Toronto but prior experience does not necessarily equal a great coach. First head coaching gig Thibodeau had was in Chicago. By the way I love Thibs. I played for a number of coaches and he reminds me of my favourite by far.

    ‘‘There’s no magic to it,’’ Thibodeau said. ‘‘You have to put the work into winning. If you do that, you can put yourself in position to win. There are five things we always talk about and try to get established in every game: the defense, the rebounding, lower turnovers, inside-out and share the ball. [If] we do that and everyone does their job, we feel we’re going to have a chance, no matter where we are, no matter who we’re playing against.’’

    The interesting part is that there are people on the roster who aren’t Thibodeau’s kind of players. Carlos Boozer and good defense never have met. I’m guessing Thibodeau could do without Nate Robinson’s up-and-down performances.

    But he takes what he has and makes everybody better. That’s what the best coaches do. He probably could have taken the Brooklyn Nets and beaten the Bulls in the first round. Guaranteed, he would have banished the Nets’ selfish offensive tendencies and made them take better shots.

    We’ve all heard his stock phrases:

    Do your job.

    We have more than enough to win.

    Next man up.

    The secret to the Bulls’ success isn’t that he believes these things down to his DNA, though he does; it’s that his players believe them. It’s the only good explanation for what has happened for the Bulls this season. They should have lost to the more talented Nets. They had no business beating the Heat on Monday without sick Luol Deng and injured Kirk Hinrich.

    But they did their jobs and had more than enough to win, thanks to the next man stepping up.

    http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baske...-of-bulls.html

    I think that is the difference between Raps this year and last: last year players bought in. This year, not so much. If I had a coach preaching accountability and "Bargnani come hell or high water" in the next breath, I might not believe in the process either. I think Casey ruined a tremendous thing he had going in Toronto - whether that was him or coming from above is open for debate.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would love to have a proven coach next in Toronto but prior experience does not necessarily equal a great coach. First head coaching gig Thibodeau had was in Chicago. By the way I love Thibs. I played for a number of coaches and he reminds me of my favourite by far.




    I think that is the difference between Raps this year and last: last year players bought in. This year, not so much. If I had a coach preaching accountability and "Bargnani come hell or high water" in the next breath, I might not believe in the process either. I think Casey ruined a tremendous thing he had going in Toronto - whether that was him or coming from above is open for debate.
    I totally agree, with the second bold in your quote and about the buying in. This is essential, players have to believe that the system they are trying to implement will actually produce results. The Chicago players believe they can win playing the way Thibs wants them to play. He has their respect, and they believe in the advice he gives them, so they put forth the effort necessary to be competitive. This is definitely lacking in TO. I think the whole idea of centering on Bargs blew up in their face and the players never recovered, especially after that horrible start. They didn't believe in the system and as such did not put forth the effort and intensity necessary to compete consistently. I hope the moving of Bargs, or at least relegating him to the bench, and the development of a "team" system will change the overall effort level. This is how a coach motivates players, by making them believe in what he is preaching.

    This is why I don't believe we, or any team for that matter, absolutely need a superstar in order to be a top tier ball club. And it's also why I think this team can be successful and make it to the playoffs and possibly win a round with the players it has (well, maybe a tweak or two to the bench). The right system that the players buy in to can be produce results. So, the question becomes, do you tailor the system to the players, or acquire players that fit the system?

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would love to have a proven coach next in Toronto but prior experience does not necessarily equal a great coach. First head coaching gig Thibodeau had was in Chicago. By the way I love Thibs. I played for a number of coaches and he reminds me of my favourite by far.
    I don't care if a guy has head coaching experience. It's not definitive in terms of value and I'm not sure it's material at all, though it is relevant. Look, everyone needs to start somewhere. If you watch the playoffs you see that Popovich, Mark Jackson, Spoelstra, Thibs, Vogel, Brooks - all were first time head coaches when hired. This whole "veteran head coach" crap is nonsense. Doug Collins, Byron Scott and Scott Skiles are veteran head coaches - anybody want them? How did D'Antoni do in LA? Would Brian Shaw have achieved less?

    Coaching is overrated. For Thibodeau, he absolutely deserves lots of credit but so do Noah and Boozer for keeping that ship afloat. You have to consider that maybe Chicago has a lot of underrated players.

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