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Thread: Mackenzie on Raptors: DeRozan's losing battle

  1. #21
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    You guys better not start trolling my friend with little things called facts!

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  3. #22
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I agree DD probably doesn't have all star appearances in his future, but starting Fields is a massive downgrade at SG, barring a shooting stroke miracle over the summer. We definitely wouldn't be fine, as you suggest. We'd be worse, a lot worse. If DD goes we have to bring in a new starting SG because no one else on the roster is good enough right now (maybe Ross in a few years).
    But the thing is I'm saying having Fields at the starting 2 will be fine if we are putting in a really good 4 in return for losing DD. That way we'll finally have a balanced inside-out offense as opposed to wing dominated offense. Gay wouldn't have to carry the offense every night either.

    Fields isn't a massive downgrade from DD because he is a better rebounder, defender and playmaker than DD. Sure Fields might not put up the same amount of points as him, but we have lowry, JV, gay and our hypothetical 4 to make up for it. In his rookie year, Fields had 49% FG% and 39% 3PT%. Not saying he'll regain that same touch, but now that he's healthy there's hope that he can improve his horrendous percentages from this and last year.

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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    But the thing is I'm saying having Fields at the starting 2 will be fine if we are putting in a really good 4 in return for losing DD. That way we'll finally have a balanced inside-out offense as opposed to wing dominated offense. Gay wouldn't have to carry the offense every night either.

    Fields isn't a massive downgrade from DD because he is a better rebounder, defender and playmaker than DD. Sure Fields might not put up the same amount of points as him, but we have lowry, JV, gay and our hypothetical 4 to make up for it. In his rookie year, Fields had 49% FG% and 39% 3PT%. Not saying he'll regain that same touch, but now that he's healthy there's hope that he can improve his horrendous percentages from this and last year.
    I agree with you.

    In addition to a more offensive-minded starting PF and an improved Valanciunas, I also think that Lowry could be relied upon to score more, which would allow him to play more to his natural strengths. That's 3 players able to pickup the scoring that will be lost with DeRozan, without even relying on a healthy/improved Fields to contribute more himself.

    Furthermore, using an upgraded PF to draw double-teams and begin ball movement - whether to a cutter, to a guy outside for an open 3 or to a guy outside to start swinging the ball around the perimeter - can only help this otherwise stagnant/iso-oriented offense. Better ball movement will open the court for dribble-penetration (Gay/Lowry) for baskets and/or drive-and-kicks, more open looks (both 3pt shots and from guys being lost as a result of defenses rotating).

    Nobody is looking to trade away DeRozan, or dump DeRozan, or giveup on DeRozan... IF DeRozan were to be traded, every scenario I've seen mentioned is to land a stud starting PF (ie: Love, Millsap, possibly Gasol, or even JSmoove). Using a good young player to land a young all-star is all about asset/roster management; trading from strength/depth (wings) to address a weakness (starting PF, while Johnson becoming 3rd big would greatly improve 2nd unit too, so win-win).

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree with you.

    In addition to a more offensive-minded starting PF and an improved Valanciunas, I also think that Lowry could be relied upon to score more, which would allow him to play more to his natural strengths. That's 3 players able to pickup the scoring that will be lost with DeRozan, without even relying on a healthy/improved Fields to contribute more himself.

    Furthermore, using an upgraded PF to draw double-teams and begin ball movement - whether to a cutter, to a guy outside for an open 3 or to a guy outside to start swinging the ball around the perimeter - can only help this otherwise stagnant/iso-oriented offense. Better ball movement will open the court for dribble-penetration (Gay/Lowry) for baskets and/or drive-and-kicks, more open looks (both 3pt shots and from guys being lost as a result of defenses rotating).

    Nobody is looking to trade away DeRozan, or dump DeRozan, or giveup on DeRozan... IF DeRozan were to be traded, every scenario I've seen mentioned is to land a stud starting PF (ie: Love, Millsap, possibly Gasol, or even JSmoove). Using a good young player to land a young all-star is all about asset/roster management; trading from strength/depth (wings) to address a weakness (starting PF, while Johnson becoming 3rd big would greatly improve 2nd unit too, so win-win).
    Exactly. I'm not trashing derozan- he's been great on the raps, but if we can get a solid 4 in return we'll have a solid starting 5 capable of making more than just 7/8th seed. Derozan's close to his peak in value at this point. He's shown how well he can score and get to the line, AND at the same time display additional potential in developing a 3pt shot and some playmaking abilities. I'm not entirely sure how salaries will work out, but if we can trade derozan for 1st round pick(s) and then sign Millsap as a UFA we'd be set.

    Anyway sorry for going way off topic here lol

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree with you.

    In addition to a more offensive-minded starting PF and an improved Valanciunas, I also think that Lowry could be relied upon to score more, which would allow him to play more to his natural strengths. That's 3 players able to pickup the scoring that will be lost with DeRozan, without even relying on a healthy/improved Fields to contribute more himself.

    Furthermore, using an upgraded PF to draw double-teams and begin ball movement - whether to a cutter, to a guy outside for an open 3 or to a guy outside to start swinging the ball around the perimeter - can only help this otherwise stagnant/iso-oriented offense. Better ball movement will open the court for dribble-penetration (Gay/Lowry) for baskets and/or drive-and-kicks, more open looks (both 3pt shots and from guys being lost as a result of defenses rotating).

    Nobody is looking to trade away DeRozan, or dump DeRozan, or giveup on DeRozan... IF DeRozan were to be traded, every scenario I've seen mentioned is to land a stud starting PF (ie: Love, Millsap, possibly Gasol, or even JSmoove). Using a good young player to land a young all-star is all about asset/roster management; trading from strength/depth (wings) to address a weakness (starting PF, while Johnson becoming 3rd big would greatly improve 2nd unit too, so win-win).
    The gap from DD to Fields (assuming Fields is the player of the past 2 years, which is more realistic than assuming he'll play like his rookie year again), is much bigger than the gap from Amir to Milsap or Boozer (2 most realistic guys to get at PF). That's what a lot of people are ignoring. We have a perfectly acceptable starting PF on the roster right now, who plays great with our other starters (SI article), and who undeniably deserves over 30 minutes a night. You can't say that about Fields at all. The guy deserves 5-10 min a game at best, and I think his presence makes it easy to double Rudy on every offensive possession. So we have his offensive incompetence compounded by the fact the other team doesn't need to defend him unless he's under the basket, meaning everyone else receives more attention.
    Sure, no team is going to double Amir, but they sure as shit can't leave him open like they can Fields. Also, I'm not sure teams would be doubling Milsap if he was on the Raps. I really don't see him as that kind of offensive talent. He's more a jack of all trades, master of none. If we get Gasol, sure, he'll pull double teams. But then we probably sent out DD and Ross, so we're thin as hell at wing. I just don't see starting PF as such a great need that DD becomes expendable to get one, because the depth behind DD doesn't contain anyone who should be starting. Maybe if we can move Bargs for a starting caliber SG, but looking around the league I don't see any trade possibilities on that front.
    Last edited by Primer; Wed May 8th, 2013 at 02:31 AM.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Starting Fields would only create more struggles for Gay on the wing Fields is next to useless unless under the rim and having some lanes he can run for a backdoor cut... hes a good sub play some spot minutes sure but starting? no way in hell theres a reason NY never played him he was the 9th guy in their rotation, cause after the 30 games he played well his performance started to crash and burn. Great guy though.
    Dude do you even watch the nba? Fields started like every game for NYC...

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    The gap from DD to Fields (assuming DD is the player of the past 2 years, which is more realistic than assuming he'll play like his rookie year again), is much bigger than the gap from Amir to Milsap or Boozer (2 most realistic guys to get at PF). That's what a lot of people are ignoring. We have a perfectly acceptable starting PF on the roster right now, who plays great with our other starters (SI article), and who undeniably deserves over 30 minutes a night. You can't say that about Fields at all. The guy deserves 5-10 min a game at best, and I think his presence makes it easy to double Rudy on every offensive possession. So we have his offensive incompetence compounded by the fact the other team doesn't need to defend him unless he's under the basket, meaning everyone else receives more attention.
    Sure, no team is going to double Amir, but they sure as shit can't leave him open like they can Fields. Also, I'm not sure teams would be doubling Milsap if he was on the Raps. I really don't see him as that kind of offensive talent. He's more a jack of all trades, master of none. If we get Gasol, sure, he'll pull double teams. But then we probably sent out DD and Ross, so we're thin as hell at wing. I just don't see starting PF as such a great need that DD becomes expendable to get one, because the depth behind DD doesn't contain anyone who should be starting. Maybe if we can move Bargs for a starting caliber SG, but looking around the league I don't see any trade possibilities on that front.
    I could be wrong, but since his surgery Landry has shown improvements in his shooting (mid range). And i don't think Landry or Lowry's game is so bad that they'll be doubling rudy on every single play.
    *
    As good and hard working as Amir is, we'll never be a legit playoff team without a true post player. Our offense is screwed when our wings' shots aren't hitting, and we've seen this throughout the season.

    This is a real stretch, but if we can relieve our salary situation (trading dd and bargs) would we have enough to sign Al Jefferson? He was technically a 4 and only end up playing C for Jazz because of their front court depth. He'll definitely command double teams in the post. But obviously chances of him coming here is zero lol.
    Last edited by Pong; Thu Apr 25th, 2013 at 07:23 PM.

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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    I could be wrong, but since his surgery Landry has shown improvements in his shooting (mid range). And i don't think Landry or Lowry's game is so bad that they'll be doubling rudy on every single play.
    *
    As good and hard working as Amir is, we'll never be a legit playoff team without a true post player. Our offense is screwed when our wings' shots aren't hitting, and we've seen this throughout the season.

    This is a real stretch, but if we can relieve our salary situation (trading dd and bargs) would we have enough to sign Al Jefferson? He was technically a 4 and only end up playing C for Jazz because of their front court depth. He'll definitely command double teams in the post. But obviously chances of him coming here is zero lol.
    I think Al Jefferson ends up in Atlanta after ATL strikes out on Howard. They have the cap space and are a much more attractive situation.

    Also, not sure how Amir isn't a true post player. He takes 68% of his shots less than 8ft from the basket. He makes 64% of those attempts. If anything you're adding a guy like Millsap to spread the floor more since he's comfortable shooting out to 19 ft.
    Last edited by Primer; Thu Apr 25th, 2013 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I think Al Jefferson ends up in Atlanta after ATL strikes out on Howard. They have the cap space and are a much more attractive situation.
    How are they attractive? They are the very definition of mediocre. I know our team isn't any better but we still have loads more potential than Atlanta does.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    How are they attractive? They are the very definition of mediocre. I know our team isn't any better but we still have loads more potential than Atlanta does.
    Look closer. The only contracts they have going into next season are great value. Horford (a multi-time All Star in his prime) at $12M, Lou Williams at $5M, and their rookie Jenkins at $1M. That's $40M+ in cap space. They also have Jeff Teague as a RFA so they can bring him back easily and for a decent price. They have bird rights on Josh Smith so he can easily be dealt in a S&T to bring back some more talent, or just resigned if Atlanta chooses to go that route. They also have 2 1st round picks this year to help facilitate any trades they want to make, or just to add more cheap talent. If they wanted, Atlanta could sign Al Jefferson and another player, before going over the cap to resign Smith and Teague. At the minimum, they can easily put together this roster, which is a lot better than the Raps in my opinion.

    PG: Teague
    SG: Williams, Jenkins
    SF: Smith
    PF: Horford
    C: Jefferson

    They could also easily bring back Korver at SF if they choose to move Smith. Basically, they have excellent pieces of great contracts, plus tons of cap space, plus 2 first round picks, plus Atlanta is a desirable city for the average NBA player. Hawks have a much more attractive situation than the Raps.

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Look closer. The only contracts they have going into next season are great value. Horford (a multi-time All Star in his prime) at $12M, Lou Williams at $5M, and their rookie Jenkins at $1M. That's $40M+ in cap space. They also have Jeff Teague as a RFA so they can bring him back easily and for a decent price. They have bird rights on Josh Smith so he can easily be dealt in a S&T to bring back some more talent, or just resigned if Atlanta chooses to go that route. They also have 2 1st round picks this year to help facilitate any trades they want to make, or just to add more cheap talent. If they wanted, Atlanta could sign Al Jefferson and another player, before going over the cap to resign Smith and Teague. At the minimum, they can easily put together this roster, which is a lot better than the Raps in my opinion.

    PG: Teague
    SG: Williams, Jenkins
    SF: Smith
    PF: Horford
    C: Jefferson

    They could also easily bring back Korver at SF if they choose to move Smith. Basically, they have excellent pieces of great contracts, plus tons of cap space, plus 2 first round picks, plus Atlanta is a desirable city for the average NBA player. Hawks have a much more attractive situation than the Raps.
    I agree with everything but Smith at the 3. He has been a fail at SF.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree with everything but Smith at the 3. He has been a fail at SF.
    Yeah, I don't think they want Smith at the 3 either. I'm pretty sure they're going to S&T him for something they need like a starting SG (Lou Williams is better off the bench and needs to play a lot of backup PG) or a SF. Maybe trade with Milwaukee for Monte Ellis or Ilyasova? Milwaukee has great interest in Smith and would probably be willing to max him out, and all Smith wants is to get paid.

    Another option could be to Phoenix for something like Dudley and Scola. Or Sacramento for Tyreke Evans. I think there are enough suitors for Smith that Atlanta could get something favorable done.
    Last edited by Primer; Thu Apr 25th, 2013 at 09:32 PM.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Dude do you even watch the nba? Fields started like every game for NYC...
    Dude do you even watch the Raptors?? Fields gets less playing time than AA & he cant shoot! ....Check his stats in the playoffs with NYC......Starter? Only in BC's mind. He should've never got that contract!

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Dude do you even watch the nba? Fields started like every game for NYC...
    out of necessity he started then sat on the bench cause hes garbage and a liability. I guess you can blame his #s and sucking on Melo though,

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I think Al Jefferson ends up in Atlanta after ATL strikes out on Howard. They have the cap space and are a much more attractive situation.

    Also, not sure how Amir isn't a true post player. He takes 68% of his shots less than 8ft from the basket. He makes 64% of those attempts. If anything you're adding a guy like Millsap to spread the floor more since he's comfortable shooting out to 19 ft.
    Sorry to clarify I meant a back to the basket big. Someone we can dump the ball to in the post and let him work. Amir currently relies most of his makes either in the pick and roll or hustle plays from offensive rebounds. This worked real well when Calderon was the PG since he's a great shooter and passer while Amir was awesome at rolling to the hoop. Lowry isn't as great in the pick and roll (maybe because hes shorter and its harder for him to see the rolling big man and make the pass) and is better suited for drive and kick.

    Having a back to the basket big man allows us to change the tempo of the game depending on match ups and if our wings get cold.

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  21. #36
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    So perhaps my example of millsap isn't the greatest since he's not as great in the post as a gasol or al Jeff

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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    Sorry to clarify I meant a back to the basket big. Someone we can dump the ball to in the post and let him work. Amir currently relies most of his makes either in the pick and roll or hustle plays from offensive rebounds. This worked real well when Calderon was the PG since he's a great shooter and passer while Amir was awesome at rolling to the hoop. Lowry isn't as great in the pick and roll (maybe because hes shorter and its harder for him to see the rolling big man and make the pass) and is better suited for drive and kick.

    Having a back to the basket big man allows us to change the tempo of the game depending on match ups and if our wings get cold.
    I'm thinking Jonas will develop that post game. He'll need to if he's going to become elite.

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    JV will become a good post player, but typically big men need several years to develop. If BC is serious about making an impact in the playoffs next year, we need to add that star PF in our starting 5. And if we do land someone like an al jefferson (again, a pipe dream) think of how much JV could learn from him.

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    Good arguments here.

    If DD isn't traded, team relies on internal improvement - JV, Ross, Acy, DeRozan. I personally like the idea of keeping DeRozan, Bargnani & Ross as trade chips, and Amir as the starting power forward. That true post player is in JV, where he has shown more than a handful of moments in the post. Much room to grow obviously, but he is quite polished in that area, the physicality/footwork is where he'll get better moves, looks, makes, etc.

    Trade for a power forward, you acquire an above average starter at that position, with a player capable of starting behind that set player in Amir. But, Fields and Ross are the set replacements, and neither in my honest opinion have earned/talented to consistently hold that spot. Yet (Ross - rookie, inexperienced, inconsistent).

    Keep team as is, rely on internal improvement, and try to make deal with Bargnani and fillers/assets i.e Fields, Ross, etc. This team keeps 5, capable starters, bring in a significant back-up or starter with Bargnani/Ross, and MLE becomes asset to sign the smaller issues i.e shooters, 3rd PG.

    In my opinion, I wouldn't be upset with either option, just much rather/prefer keeping DeRozan. A core and key player continuity is a major role of building successful teams.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Dude do you even watch the Raptors?? Fields gets less playing time than AA & he cant shoot! ....Check his stats in the playoffs with NYC......Starter? Only in BC's mind. He should've never got that contract!
    He had a nerve problem in his elbow dating back to his rookie season in NY. You can't say he can't shoot, he's just not physically able to shoot because of his elbow surgery. You could be the best shooter in the world, but if you end up having a nerve problem in your shooting elbow its going to fuck everything up. alex mckechnie said they are going to work with him throughout the summer to fix it, he also said that by training camp he should be good to go because of how hard Fields works.
    Last edited by NoPropsneeded; Fri Apr 26th, 2013 at 01:42 PM.

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