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Thread: Kevin Love: Wish or Swish?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Default Kevin Love: Wish or Swish?

    20. Kevin Love
    Tough love for Love! He already lost the 2013 Mokeski to David Lee; now he's bungee-jumping 16 picks from last year's lofty no. 4 spot to this year's semi-insulting no. 20 position, which normally wouldn't happen to a 24-year-old franchise star unless he was arrested with two underage girls and three and a half pounds of molly. Just know that he didn't drop 16 spots because of that twice-broken hand. If we're measuring players by trade value, we're really measuring them by the probability that they'd ever be traded. And Kevin Love WILL be traded. It's inevitable. It might happen this summer, it might happen during next season, but it's going to happen.
    And here's why: Before the 2011-12 season started, Minnesota could have locked Love up to a five-year max extension that he wanted to sign. Incredibly, the T-Wolves decided it would be dumb to lock up a 23-year-old franchise guy for as long as humanly possible; they wanted to save that "max" extension slot for Ricky Rubio. Love signed a lucrative four-year extension with a player option for Year 4 (after 2014-15) that may as well be called "Kevin Love's Get Out of Jail Free Card." He's been bitter ever since. You would be too.
    What should you do if you're Minnesota? If you're smart, you'd build around Rubio (about to get an extension), Pekovic (about to get paid) and whatever you can get for Kevin Love. The blueprint: In February 2011, the Jazz shrewdly dealt Deron Williams 17 months before he could bolt Utah for a high lottery pick (Derrick Favors) and a future lottery pick (that became no. 3 overall: Enes Kanter), maximizing any and all leverage they had. I don't see how the T-Wolves make it through this summer without doing the same. The likeliest suitor? Chicago. The Bulls have big contracts to make the trade work (Luol Deng on the enticing side, Carlos Boozer on the less enticing side); they're loaded with assets like Jimmy Butler (no. 49 on this year's list), the rights to Mirotic (a high lottery pick if he entered this year's draft), and the rights to Charlotte's future no. 1 pick (top-10 protected in 2014, top-eight protected in 2015, unprotected in 2016); and they're a big-market contender with a superstar in house (so they could keep Love for the long haul).
    Let's say Chicago calls Minnesota in June and offers them Boozer's contract with Butler, Mirotic AND the Charlotte pick. How could the T-Wolves turn that down? And if you're the Bulls, how would you turn down the chance to (a) dump Boozer's deal, and (b) upend a potential Miami dynasty with a nucleus of Rose, Noah, Love, Deng, Taj Gibson and Tom Thibodeau these next few years? You know, unless your owner was too cheap to make a real run at the Heat? (Cut to every Chicago fan grimacing.) Anyway, I'm dropping Love to 20 only because that Bulls trade made too much damned sense. It just did.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...e-value-part-2

    Any chance we can get him?

    1) If David Khan gets irritated with Love because of his comments and demeanor, what better way would there be than to throw him to an eastern team who hasnt been to the playoffs in so many years?

    Would you do Amir + DD + 1st rounder for Love?
    Amir would be a good backup or even play alongside Pecovic, DD as the starting SG and 1st rounder as icing on the cake.

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    I much prefer giving away Bargnani for Love, but I doubt Minny has any need or want for Bargnani...

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    DeRozan & future 1st round pick would be similar to what Utah got for Williams and would be much better than Deng/Boozer & future 1st round pick.

    Unfortunately, DeRozan would not be enough to get it done, salary-wise. Even after his new contract kicks in on July 1st, the most the Raptors could take back in trade is $11.975M. Since Love makes $14.694M next season, the Raptors would need to send out at least $11.676M ($2.176M more than DeRozan alone).

    Obviously the best-case scenario would be to sell Kahn on Bargnani, while taking back Ridnour. If I was Toronto, I'd even offer a 2nd 1st round pick and/or their 2014 2nd round pick (better of their own and SAC's pick). DeRozan & Bargnani & 1st round pick & 2nd round pick for Love & Ridnour is too ideal to even consider... it's not Chicago I'd be worried about, but other potential suitors.

    If Johnson is included instead of Bargnani, I'd give it some thought, but it would be much harder to pull the trigger. At that point you're giving up two young rotation players for one young rotation player with an ETO and a veteran backup on an expiring deal... that would be a tough call, but I think I'd still do it.

    A starting lineup of Valanciunas, Love, Gay, Fields and Lowry, with Ross & Ridnour on the bench would be a great young core. Bargnani would still be an asset (to trade) and the Raps could use the MLE (after using amnesty of Kleiza), to add a backup PF and backup SF. Gray, Acy and Lucas would complete their 13-man roster.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Apr 26th, 2013 at 01:37 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    1) If David Khan gets irritated with Love because of his comments and demeanor, what better way would there be than to throw him to an eastern team who hasnt been to the playoffs in so many years?

    Would you do Amir + DD + 1st rounder for Love?
    Amir would be a good backup or even play alongside Pecovic, DD as the starting SG and 1st rounder as icing on the cake.
    David Khan was actually fired today. Even if he was retained though, I don't think any GM would trade a player to a certain destination just to settle a personal score.

    I think there's a decent chance that Love gets moved this summer. It really depends on what the new GM wants to do in Minnesota... If he decides to tear it down and put his own imprint on the team then Love would certainly be one of the big pieces moved to kick start that process.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I think teams like Cleveland, or Atlanta could make better offers, as Toronto does not have a lot of assets. Love makes a decent salary and would be coveted by a lot of teams looking for a young franchise talent.

    Would be great to have him (not a fan of his defense but his other talents make up for it), but I don't think its going to happen.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    David Khan was actually fired today. Even if he was retained though, I don't think any GM would trade a player to a certain destination just to settle a personal score.

    I think there's a decent chance that Love gets moved this summer. It really depends on what the new GM wants to do in Minnesota... If he decides to tear it down and put his own imprint on the team then Love would certainly be one of the big pieces moved to kick start that process.
    Yeah. I didn't think the Raps could get Love, but before he got fired I could have totally seen Kahn trading for Bargnani as a temporary stop-gap. I'm happy for the Wolves (Kahn is not good), but bummed out for the Raps. Flip Saunders is too smart to take Bargs without some serious assets going his way.

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    At this stage of his career, i would throw Andrea + T-Ross + Future 1st rounder for Love, don't know if the Wolves would bite. The Wolves get a PF scorer in Andrea who might make a name for himself on that young team. T-Ross would become their franchise SG for years to come if he develops his game right. As for the Raptors, let's hope K.Love get back to the way he was before, the dynamic rebounder

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    Isn't there a good chance they fired Kahn in part because they want to keep Love?

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan & future 1st round pick would be similar to what Utah got for Williams and would be much better than Deng/Boozer & future 1st round pick.
    The author wrote Boozer + Butler + Mirotic + Charlotte's pick, which is substantially more than Deng/Boozer & future 1st round pick.

    If the Raptors offer DeRozan + Johnson + 1st round pick as you mentioned, it gets muddy as to which offer is best.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Isn't there a good chance they fired Kahn in part because they want to keep Love?
    I think its beyond David Kahn or any other Minny GM now. Its on Kevin Love. And remembering how he voiced his displeasure with the team and fans booing him, I dont think Sauders would make it his priority to move him but a nudge from Kevin Love himself might push Sauders in that direction.

    If they can look past all the "inadequacies" of Bargnani and consider his true worth which is big man playing outside, which would allow Rubio to operate and penetrate and clear the interior for Pecovic to move around, then a trade could happen. If not, I dont know how they would pass up on a Amir/DD or Ross/1st rounder deal.

    If you look around the league, only the Raptors "technically" does not have a close-to-a-franchise-player type player. And Kevin Love can see this situation as something that he benefit from.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I think its beyond David Kahn or any other Minny GM now. Its on Kevin Love. And remembering how he voiced his displeasure with the team and fans booing him, I dont think Sauders would make it his priority to move him but a nudge from Kevin Love himself might push Sauders in that direction.

    If they can look past all the "inadequacies" of Bargnani and consider his true worth which is big man playing outside, which would allow Rubio to operate and penetrate and clear the interior for Pecovic to move around, then a trade could happen. If not, I dont know how they would pass up on a Amir/DD or Ross/1st rounder deal.

    If you look around the league, only the Raptors "technically" does not have a close-to-a-franchise-player type player. And Kevin Love can see this situation as something that he benefit from.
    I just think Cleveland is the front runner. He's good friends with Irving.. they have cap space/draft picks/young assets.

    A package of Andy V, Thompson, 2013 #1 pick (which is going to be in the top 5) and maybe a second rounder/future pick would blow away any deal that Toronto could offer.

    A nucleus of Irving/Love/Waiters I think is fairly solid.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=cq3fola

    Kevin Love, Ridnour, D. Williams <----> Bargnani, Derozan, Amir + future 1st rounder

    Hollinger PER says Minnesota wins this deal by far.

    Raptors:
    Lowry, Ridnour
    Ross, Fields
    Gay, Williams
    Love, Acy
    Val, Gray

    Acy, Williams, and Fields can share the backup 2,3, and 4.

    Minnesota:

    Rubio, Barea
    Derozan, Shved
    Kirilenko, Buddinger
    Amir, Bargnani
    Pekovic, Stiemsma

    Minnesota looks like a very very deep team, with potential stars at C, PG, and SG.

    BTW Ive never noticed this until now, Minnesota is so freaking european its ridiculous.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=cq3fola

    Kevin Love, Ridnour, D. Williams <----> Bargnani, Derozan, Amir + future 1st rounder

    Hollinger PER says Minnesota wins this deal by far.

    Raptors:
    Lowry, Ridnour
    Ross, Fields
    Gay, Williams
    Love, Acy
    Val, Gray

    Acy, Williams, and Fields can share the backup 2,3, and 4.

    Minnesota:

    Rubio, Barea
    Derozan, Shved
    Kirilenko, Buddinger
    Amir, Bargnani
    Pekovic, Stiemsma

    Minnesota looks like a very very deep team, with potential stars at C, PG, and SG.

    BTW Ive never noticed this until now, Minnesota is so freaking european its ridiculous.
    While this one looks good on paper .. the fatal flaw is I dont think it leaves them enough room to max out Rubio (especially if they resign Pekovic). My understanding is the whole reason they didnt give Love max years was to leave flexibility for Rubio. Thus, a deal that kills that I dont think they do.

    Something like DD + Draft pick plus mid level salary that only has a year or two left might work. Havent done the math, but maybe Amir .. might need to be less.

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    While this one looks good on paper .. the fatal flaw is I dont think it leaves them enough room to max out Rubio (especially if they resign Pekovic). My understanding is the whole reason they didnt give Love max years was to leave flexibility for Rubio. Thus, a deal that kills that I dont think they do.

    Something like DD + Draft pick plus mid level salary that only has a year or two left might work. Havent done the math, but maybe Amir .. might need to be less.
    Regardless of whether or not trades is realistic, they would have Rubio's Bird Rights and can pay him what they want up to max.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Regardless of whether or not trades is realistic, they would have Rubio's Bird Rights and can pay him what they want up to max.
    Is that how it works? You have one "max" slot to use and you can use that one slot regardless of your cap situation? And thus, by not giving Love the true max, they maintained this flexibility with Rubio? If yes .. then I take back my comment (at least in part .. they would still have negative luxury tax implications by having Pekovic, DD, AB, AJ + rubio max so presumably they would prefer a deal where they take on DD plus someone with less salary / years).

    Anyways - if you can confirm thats how the max contracts work, that would be appreciated.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Is that how it works? You have one "max" slot to use and you can use that one slot regardless of your cap situation? And thus, by not giving Love the true max, they maintained this flexibility with Rubio? If yes .. then I take back my comment (at least in part .. they would still have negative luxury tax implications by having Pekovic, DD, AB, AJ + rubio max so presumably they would prefer a deal where they take on DD plus someone with less salary / years).

    Anyways - if you can confirm thats how the max contracts work, that would be appreciated.
    If a team has Bird Rights they can sign any player regardless of the salary cap situation - assuming they did not give a full MLE in which case a hard cap of $74M comes in to effect.

    Regarding players coming off rookie contracts, you can designate a player to get a 5 year extension - the full max - BUT you can only have one of these contracts/players on your books at the one time. The Wolves elected to save this designation for Rubio and gave Love the 4-year max (which he can opt out of after 3 years).... which has been a bit of a sore point for Love.

    With regards to making a trade work on paper and resigning players, there was nothing to stop the above. Now if ownership has their own salary limits or profit targets, then that is an entirely different issue.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter connected's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    While this one looks good on paper .. the fatal flaw is I dont think it leaves them enough room to max out Rubio (especially if they resign Pekovic). My understanding is the whole reason they didnt give Love max years was to leave flexibility for Rubio. Thus, a deal that kills that I dont think they do.
    I don't get why they already plan to give Rubio a max salary. Allstars like Nash, Parker, Stockon, Payton, Rondo never had max contracts. And Rubio isn't like a Rose, Westbrook or Paul where he alone makes the timberwolves a winning team. He's a great facilitator and could be a young Jason Kidd (but Kidd got a max salary after he had already been to 5 or 6 allstar games and multiple playoff appearances).

    I don't think Wall deserves one yet either (though he's thinks so)

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    Quote connected wrote: View Post
    I don't get why they already plan to give Rubio a max salary. Allstars like Nash, Parker, Stockon, Payton, Rondo never had max contracts. And Rubio isn't like a Rose, Westbrook or Paul where he alone makes the timberwolves a winning team. He's a great facilitator and could be a young Jason Kidd (but Kidd got a max salary after he had already been to 5 or 6 allstar games and multiple playoff appearances).

    I don't think Wall deserves one yet either (though he's thinks so)
    If it's about the extra year they can give to only one player, that doesn't mean it has to be a maximum contract.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Maybe I have been thinking about this way too long but here are three ideas for Love to Toronto. All three ideas are three team deals with Toronto-Minnesota-LA. Love ends up in Toronto in all three deals as well. I caught myself asking, "Why wouldn't LA just send Gasol to MIN and keep Love for themselves?" Reason is LA do not have draft picks or prospects. Major assumption here is Howard resigned by LA and Raps 2013 pick to OKC. Trades are coming up failure right now but I think they work come July 1st.

    Trade 1: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=chnstke

    LA: Bargnani, Roy, (Gray)?
    MIN: Gasol, Ross, 2014 Raps 1st rd pick
    TOR: Love, Barea

    Why? Since Roy not guaranteed, LA saves $38M on the deal, about $25 if Gray included. Whole stretch 4 thing and MD'A system yada yada yada. MIN gets Spanish mate for Rubio, near all-star talent in Gasol, prospect at position of need in Ross, and draft pick. Toronto gets starting PF and backup PG.


    Trade 2: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=d97voo3

    LA: Bargnani, Ross, Roy
    MIN: Gasol, 2014 and 2016 1st rd pick from Toronto
    TOR: Love, Barea

    Why? LA same reasons as above but add a SG prospect. MIN same as above but 2 1st round picks. TOR same.


    Trade 3: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=ccr5fv9

    LA: Bargnani, Roy, 2014 first round pick
    MIN: Gasol, DeRozan, 2014 2nd round pick
    TOR: Love, Barea

    Why? LA same as above but add pick. MIN same reasons for Gasol as previously but add established NBA wing in DD. TOR do I need to explain? With lineup of Lowry, Fields, Gay, Love, JV with Amir, Barea, and Ross off bench the pick is inconsequential.



    I could keep going with variations but the general idea remains the same: Bargnani plus one of DeRozan or Ross plus 1 or 2 first round draft picks for Love and Barea.


    Getting Bargnani in LA would also be great because it kills LA's cap space when Love can opt out - although the next season when both Nash and Bargnani come off the books Love's contract is up.


    **EDIT**

    Thinking about it some more and trying to be as realistic as possible, you could make a case for including both DD and TR in any deal along with Bargnani and a pick(s). The Raps would have their full MLE with a big rotation (JV, Love, Amir, Gray, Acy) in place and PG set (Lowry, Barea, JL3). THey would now be thin on the wings with just Fields and Gay. Bring back AA for minimum (or not much more). Use MLE on another wing or split it to sign 2. While there are few big name wings available this off season in free agency, there are some useful players especially when you consider the scoring ability the Raptors would already have (Love, Gay, Lowry, improving JV, Amir).
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 08:48 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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