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  1. #41
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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    No way josh smith deserves a max deal. And i don't think any GM will be stupid enough to do this. Every stat of his has basically regressed from last year, not to mention he's shooting 59% FT.
    because he is still relatively young (27), an excellent defender, excellent passer I can realistically see a GM offering him max, what else are they going to do with the capspace and lack of big names availible this summer? Like I said it's a clear overpay, and part of the reason is because I don't think toronto is one of j smooves preferred destinations this offseason, but I think it would move us into the upper echelon in the east and it would be worth it. We could be okc lite, with a more balanced team.

    lowry (westbrook lite)
    ross (potential to be an elite defender, more offensive tools than seflosha)
    rudy gay (durant lite)
    josh smith (better than ibaka)
    Valanciunas (better than perkins)

    notice how all players are above average defensively.
    Last edited by akashsingh; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 02:22 PM.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    If I only get three moves, here they are. Yes, I'm going tanking!

    1) Trade Bargnani and the Kings 2014 second rounder to Charlotte for Ben Gordon
    2) Wait until Joe Dumars completely strikes out in free agency and then trade DeRozan to Detroit for Rodney Stuckey and their 2014 First Round pick
    3) Trade Rudy Gay/Kleiza to Los Angeles for Pau Gasol (who we're going to buy out right after)


    2012-13 Roster

    Lowry (expiring)
    Ross
    Fields
    Amir
    JV

    Bench:
    Stuckey (expiring)
    Gordon (expiring)
    Gray (expiring)
    JL3 (expiring)
    Acy
    Veteran Minimum Player A
    Veteran Minimum Player B

    We're bad enough to be the worst team in the league in 2014 and we have Detroit's selection as well (likely somewhere in the 8-16 range). We've also kept our own second rounder in a deep draft. More importantly, we've suddenly escaped from salary cap hell with roughly $50 million coming off the books next summer (Stuckey, Gordon, Lowry, Gasol, Gray, JL3). The only players under salary for 2014-15 are:

    JV
    Acy
    Ross
    Amir
    Fields
    Wiggins/Parker/Randle (whoever the Raps get w/ their own pick)
    Detroit's 2014 lottery pick
    2014 2nd Rounder

    All of a sudden that's a pretty awesome young core. The team would also have $35 million plus in cap room to either a) take on a bad contract or two with the Raps getting a 2015 first rounder (or a good young player) as compensation for doing so or b) make your pitch to free agents who you actually want on your team to grow with the young nucleus.

    Let the kids take their lumps for one more season (while providing plenty of highlights along the way) and draft in the top 8 again in 2015. All of a sudden you're the Thunder of the East in only 2 years time from now... and you still have more cap space then you know what to do with!

    That was fun and not that difficult.
    Buzz Kill Patrol:

    But Detroit's picks is going to Charlotte top-8 protected between now and 2015 at which point it becomes unprotected in 2016.

    Detroit has no pick to trade.

    **EDIT**

    My mistake: top 8 in 2014, top 1 in 2015, unprotected in 2016. Detroit still has no pick to trade though until that debt is paid.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 02:50 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #43
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    If I only get three moves, here they are. Yes, I'm going tanking!

    1) Trade Bargnani and the Kings 2014 second rounder to Charlotte for Ben Gordon
    2) Wait until Joe Dumars completely strikes out in free agency and then trade DeRozan to Detroit for Rodney Stuckey and their 2014 First Round pick
    3) Trade Rudy Gay/Kleiza to Los Angeles for Pau Gasol (who we're going to buy out right after)


    2012-13 Roster

    Lowry (expiring)
    Ross
    Fields
    Amir
    JV

    Bench:
    Stuckey (expiring)
    Gordon (expiring)
    Gray (expiring)
    JL3 (expiring)
    Acy
    Veteran Minimum Player A
    Veteran Minimum Player B

    We're bad enough to be the worst team in the league in 2014 and we have Detroit's selection as well (likely somewhere in the 8-16 range). We've also kept our own second rounder in a deep draft. More importantly, we've suddenly escaped from salary cap hell with roughly $50 million coming off the books next summer (Stuckey, Gordon, Lowry, Gasol, Gray, JL3). The only players under salary for 2014-15 are:

    JV
    Acy
    Ross
    Amir
    Fields
    Wiggins/Parker/Randle (whoever the Raps get w/ their own pick)
    Detroit's 2014 lottery pick
    2014 2nd Rounder

    All of a sudden that's a pretty awesome young core. The team would also have $35 million plus in cap room to either a) take on a bad contract or two with the Raps getting a 2015 first rounder (or a good young player) as compensation for doing so or b) make your pitch to free agents who you actually want on your team to grow with the young nucleus.

    Let the kids take their lumps for one more season (while providing plenty of highlights along the way) and draft in the top 8 again in 2015. All of a sudden you're the Thunder of the East in only 2 years time from now... and you still have more cap space then you know what to do with!

    That was fun and not that difficult.
    1. The Raptors won't have any 2014 2nd round picks in that scenario (the lower of TOR/SAC pick goes to Memphis from the Gay trade).

    2. I doubt Toronto would be the only team tanking ahead of the loaded 2014 draft, so it could very well be dependent on luck in the draft lottery to even land a top-3 pick in the draft (or who knows, if the Raps get 'lucky' in this year's draft lottery, their 2014 1st round pick goes to OKC).

    3. It's all dependent on draft picks panning out any better than Bargnani (1st overall), DeRozan (9th), Davis (13th), Valanciunas (5th) and Ross (8th).


    More crappy basketball, followed by luck and hope. There's no guarantee that those 2 1st round picks become players that are any better than Gay, DeRozan and Lowry.


    ---

    EDIT: Plus what Matt said about Detroit not having a 2014 1st round pick to trade (unless it's the #9-14 pick, traded after the draft).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Buzz Kill Patrol:

    But Detroit's picks is going to Charlotte top-8 protected between now and 2015 at which point it becomes unprotected in 2016.

    Detroit has no pick to trade.

    **EDIT**

    My mistake: top 8 in 2014, top 1 in 2015, unprotected in 2016. Detroit still has no pick to trade though until that debt is paid.
    Damn! So close. I edited my original post... Raps ditch even more salary next summer and get even crappier in the interim. Win Win!!!
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 03:30 PM.

  5. #45
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    If I sound like I'm trolling here, I apologize. Dwight Howard just got DQ'ed in what may be his final game as a Laker. Given Lieweke's signing (and LA connection) and the fact that we have parts for a trade (JV being the centerpiece), how would people feel about DH12 coming here? Again, I pose the question because TL is talking championship, not just making the playoffs. Thoughts?
    He left the Magic because he was unhappy with their performance and one of those teams went to the finals. The Raptors can't even sniff the playoffs. Why come here? One man in a suit isn't enough unless that man can play like LeBron James,

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post

    More crappy basketball, followed by luck and hope. There's no guarantee that those 2 1st round picks become players that are any better than Gay, DeRozan and Lowry.
    .

    With all due respect, don't you think it will take an incredible amount of luck for the current incarnation of the Raptors to turn into anything good? "Crappy Basketball followed with luck and hope" sounds like a pretty accurate description of this past season too.... except without very many avenues to improve.

    Going young doesn't guarantee that it will land better players than DD/Lowry/Gay but it certainly brings a much higher ceiling for a fraction of the cost. My scenario basically hits the reset button on the salary cap after one year, and they potentially get a bunch of young elite talent in the process. I'd much rather do that then wait another year, hoping and praying that everything goes right, just for the Raps to sneak into the first round and get murdered by Miami... only to have no way else to improve again next summer.
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 03:30 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    With all due respect, don't you think it will take an incredible amount of luck for the current incarnation of the Raptors to turn into anything good? "Crappy Basketball followed with luck and hope" sounds like a pretty accurate description of this season too.

    Going young doesn't guarantee that it will land better players than DD/Lowry/Gay but it certainly brings a much higher ceiling for a fraction of the cost. My scenario basically hits the reset button on the salary cap after one year, and they potentially get a bunch of young elite talent in the process. I'd much rather do that then wait another year, hoping and praying that everything goes right so the Raps can sneak into the first round and get murdered by Miami... only to have no way else to improve again next summer.
    I have no issue with a rebuild, as I was one of the most vocal 'pro tankers' in the post-Bosh era, especially last season while Valanciuncas was still in Europe. I just don't see it as a significantly different strategy from what BC has been doing since Bosh left.

    The Raptors have used 5 lottery picks in the past 8 years, assuming they don't get one for the 2013 draft. The 3 they didn't use were traded for LaMond Murray (#22 in '07), Jermaine O'Neal (#17 in '08) and Kyle Lowry (likely #12 in '13).

    They cashed in an expiring contract of a veteran they likely wouldn't have re-signed and one of those lottery picks who was going to be in line for a big raise after next season, for a guy they thought was a near all-star, at a position that has been their greatest weakness for years. I think BC viewed that type of move as one similar to Houston's acquisition of Harden, with arguably less assets being given up.

    The way I see it is that the Raptors are a few good moves away from turning their bubble team (on both the playoff bubble and treadmill bubble) into a legit sustainable playoff team, which could continue to improve internally. Plus, even as currently constructed, they have very little guaranteed salary beyond the 2014-15 season, with several huge expiring contracts to play with during that season (Gay-$19.3M, Bargnani-$11.5M, Johnson-$7.05M, Fields-$6.25M), barring any moves this offseason of course. Only DeRozan, Valanciunas (team option), Ross (team option) and Acy (non-guaranteed) are under contract beyond 2014-15.

    I think the Raptors have basically a season and a half to try and win with the current core (either as players or assets), before the reset button can/should be pressed. I think it also makes sense to give BC/DC this season (especially since DC will be paid regardless) to see what they can do with the team they've built. I would make sure that any trades/signings get approved by a higher-up, to prevent them from trying to save their jobs in the short-term by killing the team long-term (ie: bad long-term salary and/or trading away draft picks). Of course, I'd be just as happy to see them both get fired this offseason.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 03:46 PM.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I've been thinking long and hard about this. I really am torn. On the one hand I do see promise and potential (or is this more unsubstantiated hope than anything? ugh). On the other hand I don't see championship contenders with the way things are.


    So.... what would I do?


    1) Fire Colangelo. 7 years here, you know what you are getting with him. 5 years missing the playoffs and it has been everyone's fault but his own. Losing culture was in Toronto prior to his arrival - he did a great job for 2 years but it was not sustainable. Losing culture returned on his watch. Insult to injury: the excuses (overpay free agents, Bosh, Bargnani, Casey, youth), bad contracts (Kapono, Kleiza *albeit injury*, Fred Jones, Hedo, etc.), bad trades (Hedo, JO), bidding against himself on extensions (Amir, DeRozan), and impatient/quick fixes. F*ck that is enough, the agony of typing this.

    Replacement? I say go get Phil Jackson. Be daring. Be creative. Nothing says we are serious about winning by hiring a guy who has been a part of 13 championships. My worry is the financial side of things and the CBA, so hire Tom Penn or promote Fruitman to GM. Basically bring in PJax to take care of the "basketball" decisions and someone else to take care of the "financial" implications.


    2. There really are only 2 routes right now, in my opinion. Staying the course, or "the plan" as Colangelo would say, is bullshit and should be avoided - get better immediately or worse to get better sooner than later. Attempt to win (bring in more talent/star) or take a step back (unload current players for prospects/picks).

    a) Bring in more talent/star. Not as easy as it sounds, of course. I would make everyone except JV, Amir, and Gay available. Available assets becomes: Bargnani, Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Fields, Acy, 2014 2nd rd pick, 1st round picks after 2013 draft (assumption 2013 pick goes to OKC). Kleiza is not an asset unless a worse contract is coming back, Kleiza is amnesty at this point - nothing more, nothing less.

    Usual suspect list (just throwing shit out to show how it could be done):
    Gasol for Fields/Bargnani/2nd rd pick? Gasol for DeRozan/Bargnani?
    Boozer for Bargnani/JL3 or just Bargnani depending on how things work out with CBA/BRI.
    Jefferson - sign and trade with DeRozan being centre piece?
    Millsap - sign and trade?
    Love for DeRozan/2 first round picks?

    You could add 3rd/4th teams in to the above as well - especially if you send Bargnani to Philly or Charlotte (i.e. rumoured teams at trade deadline).

    You could also add a 2nd trade. For example, Raps get Gasol and then flip Gasol/picks for Kevin Love.

    My wet dream would be Love. Lowry, Fields, Gay, Love, JV with Ross, Amir off bench.

    b) Unload current roster. Take other teams sh!t for prospects and picks. Clean the cupboards with the exception of JV, Amir, and Ross. Get as much cap space as possible in a year or two combined with as many draft picks.


    3a) Fire Casey. If you get another top tier talent to go with the core of JV, Amir, and Gay plus whatever is left over after trade, bring in a top coach. If MLSE already has PJax on board in addition to Leiweke, they opened the purse strings so don't go half-assed (or 2/3rds assed), go get SVG.

    3b) If you are unloading, keep Casey. Sure he'll be a lame duck but so will next season.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Priority #1 would be to get this chick on the DancePak:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1OcmeFb1bs

    Bet she could teach Demar some ball-handling skills.

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  11. #50
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    because he is still relatively young (27), an excellent defender, excellent passer I can realistically see a GM offering him max, what else are they going to do with the capspace and lack of big names availible this summer? Like I said it's a clear overpay, and part of the reason is because I don't think toronto is one of j smooves preferred destinations this offseason, but I think it would move us into the upper echelon in the east and it would be worth it. We could be okc lite, with a more balanced team.

    lowry (westbrook lite)
    ross (potential to be an elite defender, more offensive tools than seflosha)
    rudy gay (durant lite)
    josh smith (better than ibaka)
    Valanciunas (better than perkins)

    notice how all players are above average defensively.
    Every one knows josh smith has all the talent in the world but he's inconsistent, known to be a head case and he's not the greatest decision maker. He could flourish in a system where there is strong leadership and vets to keep him in check. Raptors offer neither of these. We're a young team, Casey's still relatively inexperienced as a head coach, our vets are AA and Gray, and our 'leader' Rudy Gay also is inconsistent and also likes to take long 2s.

    Not to mention his entire game relies on his athleticism. 27 isn't relatively young when the league's average age is 27, and that's when players have basically peaked in terms of performance. He's going to have a hard time playing his style of game once his injuries catches up to him or his athleticism begins to decline.
    Last edited by Pong; Mon Apr 29th, 2013 at 11:44 PM.

  12. #51
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorsAnalyst's Avatar
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    Default Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, or Josh Smith?

    The Raptors have ended their season with some optimism for next season with a great young core filled with potential. The upcoming off-season should be an interesting one for the Raptors as they will need to get rid of Andrea Bargnani and add depth to the team. Amir Johnson has been great this season for the Raptors, he gives the team energy and hustle. Although I think he is a good starting PF, I still think we can improve the PF position by adding someone such as Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, or Josh Smith...

    How to get Pau Gasol:

    Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, and Quincy Acy for Pau Gasol and Jodie Meeks.

    In this trade the Lakers get a stretch four in Bargs which would help D'antoni's system, and two young role players in Fields and Acy. The Lakers have had a bad bench for a while and this trade would help them. For the Raptors we get an inside presence and all star in Pau Gasol. Gasol can help JV in his growth as a player and help the team inprove. Jodie Meeks will help the Raptors 3-point shooting improve.

    How to get Carlos Boozer:

    Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, and a second round pick for Carlos Boozer.

    In this trade the Bulls would receive a stretch four to space the floor for the shooters on the Bulls, and Fields who could be a complimentary piece off the bench. The Bulls could use the pick to add more depth to the team. The Raptors on the other hand get a very solid PF. Although Boozer is starting to show signs of aging, he could still help this team in the post just as he is with the Bulls.

    How to get Josh Smith:

    Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, Amir Johnson, JL3, Quincy Acy, and second round pick for Josh Smith and Devin Harris.

    In this trade the Hawks get a two starting PF's to replace Josh Smith in Bargs and Johnson. They also get Fields, JL3, and Acy to help with their bench production. The pick could be use for team depth or in another trade. The Raptors get an all star in Josh Smith. If we could hit jackpot and get Josh Smith on our team, were definitely top 5 in the East. Derozan, Gay, and Smith could be the start of Lob City North! Devin Harris gives us a dependable back up PG that could help distribute the ball. This trade would have to be a sign & trade because Josh Smith is a unrestricted free agent.

    How do you guys feel about the Raptors off-season? Do you think we can get any of these player? Maybe even hit the jackpot and get Josh Smith?

  13. #52
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    i dont think any of those teams would even consider those trades. we win all of them and its not even close

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  15. #53
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Priority #1 would be to get this chick on the DancePak:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1OcmeFb1bs

    Bet she could teach Demar some ball-handling skills.
    I thought I was watching a young Vince Carter.

  16. #54
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Why the fascination with Boozer? He's a bad defender, he cant stay healthy and the mileage is getting up there. Not to mention his price tag.

  17. #55
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why the fascination with Boozer? He's a bad defender, he cant stay healthy and the mileage is getting up there. Not to mention his price tag.
    I also dont like him. so theres that.

  18. #56
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why the fascination with Boozer? He's a bad defender, he cant stay healthy and the mileage is getting up there. Not to mention his price tag.
    Lots of discussion on this when you were on hiatus.

    Bottom line is he appeared to be the "best" asset the Raptors could get for Bargnani.... well, according to rumours at trade deadline.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #57
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Josh Smith

  20. #58
    Raptors Republic Rookie swingman's Avatar
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    There's no outcome where a deal to trade Bargnani for Ilyasova is possible, is there?
    Of those three I'd prefer Pau, but no way he stays.

  21. #59
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    Quote swingman wrote: View Post
    There's no outcome where a deal to trade Bargnani for Ilyasova is possible, is there?
    Of those three I'd prefer Pau, but no way he stays.
    I'm thinking Gasol might be pretty fed up with the limelight in LA. Before that, while he was Memphis, he never asked for a trade as far as I remember. So I think there's a good chance he won't mind coming to Canada.

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    Quote RaptorsAnalyst wrote: View Post
    The Raptors have ended their season with some optimism for next season with a great young core filled with potential. The upcoming off-season should be an interesting one for the Raptors as they will need to get rid of Andrea Bargnani and add depth to the team. Amir Johnson has been great this season for the Raptors, he gives the team energy and hustle. Although I think he is a good starting PF, I still think we can improve the PF position by adding someone such as Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, or Josh Smith...

    How to get Pau Gasol:

    Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, and Quincy Acy for Pau Gasol and Jodie Meeks.

    In this trade the Lakers get a stretch four in Bargs which would help D'antoni's system, and two young role players in Fields and Acy. The Lakers have had a bad bench for a while and this trade would help them. For the Raptors we get an inside presence and all star in Pau Gasol. Gasol can help JV in his growth as a player and help the team inprove. Jodie Meeks will help the Raptors 3-point shooting improve.

    How to get Carlos Boozer:

    Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, and a second round pick for Carlos Boozer.

    In this trade the Bulls would receive a stretch four to space the floor for the shooters on the Bulls, and Fields who could be a complimentary piece off the bench. The Bulls could use the pick to add more depth to the team. The Raptors on the other hand get a very solid PF. Although Boozer is starting to show signs of aging, he could still help this team in the post just as he is with the Bulls.

    How to get Josh Smith:

    Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, Amir Johnson, JL3, Quincy Acy, and second round pick for Josh Smith and Devin Harris.

    In this trade the Hawks get a two starting PF's to replace Josh Smith in Bargs and Johnson. They also get Fields, JL3, and Acy to help with their bench production. The pick could be use for team depth or in another trade. The Raptors get an all star in Josh Smith. If we could hit jackpot and get Josh Smith on our team, were definitely top 5 in the East. Derozan, Gay, and Smith could be the start of Lob City North! Devin Harris gives us a dependable back up PG that could help distribute the ball. This trade would have to be a sign & trade because Josh Smith is a unrestricted free agent.

    How do you guys feel about the Raptors off-season? Do you think we can get any of these player? Maybe even hit the jackpot and get Josh Smith?
    Please let it be boozer.

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