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Thread: Warriors and Raptors

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    I give you Doc Rivers and you give me Grantland? HAH Ya this conversation is over.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue May 7th, 2013 at 03:45 PM.
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  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    List them.
    I only need to list one....Doc Rivers, because his left nut has more basketball knowledge than pretty much anyone on this forum.

    http://www.goodwinsports.com/2012/11...ns-work-ethic/

    Complimenting both his work ethic, and his game.

    “I don’t think people notice him — not because they are in Toronto, but because of their record,” Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. “I think people are sleeping on him a lot. I think he adds stuff every year. Early on, he was basically a kamikaze driver — that’s what we labeled him as, early on. Now he gets to the line. He makes jump shots. He defends. He’s a total basketball player.”

    Everyone’s different,” Rivers said. “(Kevin) Durant picked it up pretty quickly. The greats ones do, some of the guys that have a chance to be really good — it just takes them time and patience. The mental toughness of that is hard. A lot of guys give in, give up and settle. A lot of guys keep driving. What I like about him, and I don’t know him at all, but it just seems like from afar, he must put a lot of time in the summer on his game, because each year, he’s gotten not just a little better, but a lot better in areas that you would have to work on. So I think that’s impressive.
    Not to really add too much to this...but the bold italicized is why I would take DeMar 10 out of 10 times over a guy like OJ Mayo....Or if you want a comparison that takes DeMar out of it altogether and better matches skill sets.....Redick 10 out of 10 times over Mayo. Always take the player who pushes himself to maximize his talent and work on his weaknesses, rather than the guy who thinks he can coast on the skills he has.

    Will DeMar ever be an elite player? No...I very much doubt that. Could he end up being an incredibly valuable piece on a great team? Yes...I think he can be a very good piece on a very good team team. Like a Caron Butler or Richard Jefferson. I still think so much shit thrown at DeMar is because people are stupidly angry he's not a #1 guy...well he was the 9th pick and a total project at wing when drafted. He could've easily been Joey Graham v.2.0. EASILY.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    How about you list one that agrees with your stance that "Demar isn't very good".


    But I'll play into your game a little bit; here's a quote from Doc Rivers:
    "I don’t think people notice him — not because they are in Toronto, but because of their record,” Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. “I think people are sleeping on him a lot. He makes jump shots. He defends. He’s a total basketball player.”
    haha shit, you beat me to this quote.

    *BTW, just to add something. As someone who watches all his games on League Pass, the player opposing broadcast crews are usually impressed with, after JV, is DeMar. And I just don't mean the talking points. You get a lot of colour guys (usually former players or coaches) like "wow, DeMar is doing things I didn't know he could do" or "he couldn't do before".
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue May 7th, 2013 at 03:50 PM.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I give you Doc Rivers and you give me Grantland? HAH Ya this conversation is over.
    Only if you want to be over. You gave me a quote about a coach talking about a player from another team. A team he faces, what, 4 times per year?

    Here's your quote,
    "I don’t think people notice him — not because they are in Toronto, but because of their record,” Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. “I think people are sleeping on him a lot. He makes jump shots. He defends. He’s a total basketball player.”
    I've gotta head home now but let's examine the first two statements prior to the one you bolded tomorrow. Or someone else can, because clearly it's beyond ridiculous and completely invalidates your argument.
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  5. #25
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    hesketh, you arent going to win an argument by saying that Zach Lowe doesn't know shit about basketball.

    I was very down on Demar going into the year and I am slightly encouraged at the end of it. He's a lot more consistent with his jumper. Unfortunately, he's worked very hard to develop the most inefficient shot in basketball. Here's hoping he can extend that range a few more feet (I suspect that's the plan). You've gotta love his ability to get to the line, and he's a more aware defender than this time last year. All good signs. But at the end of the day he's still an inefficient offensive player and an irresponsible defender. He's not worth the money he's due

    If he were still on a rookie deal, he'd be a nice value piece. But now he's making roughly Lawson/Curry money. He's gotta 1) learn where to aggressively help on D; 2) extend his range beyond the 3 pt arc; 3) increase is BBIQ to the point that he's making lightning quick reads to keep the ball moving at a step ahead of the defense. Smooth, laser-like passes; cutting at the right time with no hesitation; and not disappearing for large stretches. Dude's got a long way to go before he's a value piece at almost $10 mil.

    But back to the original point of this post - Any time youre dismissing Zach Lowe's analysis as inaccurate or inconsequential, youre very likely losing an argument.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Only if you want to be over. You gave me a quote about a coach talking about a player from another team. A team he faces, what, 4 times per year?

    Here's your quote,

    I've gotta head home now but let's examine the first two statements prior to the one you bolded tomorrow. Or someone else can, because clearly it's beyond ridiculous and completely invalidates your argument.
    And how many times a year does Zach Lowe watch DeMar play? (watch play...not coach against )

    Bringing up bloggers and holding up their opinions to an amazing coach, former good player and one of the best minds currently in basketball is a joke. A bad joke.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue May 7th, 2013 at 04:03 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    And how many times a year does Zach Lowe watch DeMar play?

    Bringing up bloggers and holding up their opinions to an amazing coach, former good player and one of the best minds currently in basketball is a joke. A bad joke.
    Good lord almighty. Stop saying Lowe is wrong about this simply because of 1 quote from Doc Rivers.

    Doc didn't say that Demar is a potential all-star worth $10 Mil. He insinuate that Demar has solid tools and very well could become a very good player. That is true. But the current reality is a lot closer to the content to the Lowe piece that ebrian linked. Doc isn't going to say that an opposing player is overpaid, inefficient and has gaping holes in his game

    You've done nothing to address any of the problems in Demar's game that Lowe presented. You're just saying "Look what Doc said... See I'm right... Doc backs me up.... You don't think Doc is credible? Then you're wrong, this proves I'm right." Try looking at some of the criticisms of Demar's game, present arguments and counterpoints and, for the love of all things holy, stop insinuating Zach Lowe is not worth considering, the man knows his stuff.

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  9. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    And how many times a year does Zach Lowe watch DeMar play? (watch play...not coach against )

    Bringing up bloggers and holding up their opinions to an amazing coach, former good player and one of the best minds currently in basketball is a joke. A bad joke.
    To be fair though, the Rivers quote on DD was a direct response to a lob ball question about him from a Toronto media member. Did you really expect Doc to publicly trash him? You could have asked Rivers about Solomon Alabi when he was here and he would have paid him lip service too.

    It's a nice quote, and I do think that DeRozan has improved a lot in recent seasons even if the advanced metrics don't necessarily reflect that. However the Rivers quote should not be the final and definitive say on DeRozan's value. That's silly.

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  11. #29
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Thanks for the backup, White Men.

    Quote ebrian wrote:
    You gave me a quote about a coach talking about a player from another team. A team he faces, what, 4 times per year?
    Lol C'mon man.. you don't think the Celtics do a little SCOUTING?!
    You seriously believe the only information Rivers has on Demar is gathered in the 4 games they play against each other?


    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    But back to the original point of this post - Any time youre dismissing Zach Lowe's analysis as inaccurate or inconsequential, youre very likely losing an argument.
    But that's NOT the original point of this post.
    My original point was, and I quote, "there are ALOT of Basketball minds in the NBA who disagree with you."

    "In the NBA" being very KEY to all of this, as they are the ones who matter.
    I never meant to dismiss Zach Lowe .. except to say that he is nothing more than a Blogger.

    Which, when held up against the Legend that is Doc Rivers, or ANYBODY actually IN the NBA, proves to be nothing more than an opinion based on mostly here-say and a couple games he caught on League Pass.


    Anyway, this is ridiculous. You've created an argument over OTHER peoples opinions of players. Seriously?
    We disagree on Demar's value as a Player. Time to drop it.
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  12. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Ok, clearly writer/bloggers put more time into evaluating players than coaches.

    Is Doc Rivers going to say something bad about DeMar? No. You're right, he's probably not going to say things like "he's a terrible player". He also has no reason to go on about him for 2 paragraphs though. He clearly could have said less if he thought less, as coaches often do to avoid long media sessions.

    And this is all without even mentioning the fact that writers have agendas, and they actively pursue them through their articles. Lowe is basically saying that Demar's performance up to date tells you all you need to know about him so that he can peg him as a bad contract. Doc on the other hand makes the argument that a lot of players that have a chance to be very good need varying time and lots of work, and then also notes that many don't have the will to keep working and fail to grow.

    Given DeMar's skill level when he came into the league (basically high school level despite his one year at USC), he has grown much like you'd hope a player of his age and ability to grow. I don't think his contract is outrageous. If he grows for a couple more years, not to mention given his work ethic, even if he doesn't add skill you can expect him to keep refining his game, he could easily be worth it. If he doesn't, it's hardly a burdensome contract of any kind, and at his age is very tradable. DeMar's contract, despite it's cost, is pretty far from bad move, because DeMar, despite his weaknesses, is pretty far from being a bad player.

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  14. #31
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    To be fair though, the Rivers quote on DD was a direct response to a lob ball question about him from a Toronto media member. Did you really expect Doc to publicly trash him? You could have asked Rivers about Solomon Alabi when he was here and he would have paid him lip service too.

    It's a nice quote, and I do think that DeRozan has improved a lot in recent seasons even if the advanced metrics don't necessarily reflect that. However the Rivers quote should not be the final and definitive say on DeRozan's value. That's silly.
    It's true it was an easy question....

    But to flip things around...If Zach Lowe went to Rivers and asked him "do you think DeMar DeRozan will never be a good shooter because of his progress so far?", Doc's answer would be something like "Zach, that's crazy, guys always have a chance to get better. DeMar seems like a good player, and if he puts the work in, which it seems he does, I'm sure he'll have a good chance at improving his shot." Yeah, he'd probably say something like chance, because Doc is smart, and he knows that things could go either way....But that's the point: things could go either way. DeMar is still too young to say he's a finished product.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It's true it was an easy question....

    But to flip things around...If Zach Lowe went to Rivers and asked him "do you think DeMar DeRozan will never be a good shooter because of his progress so far?", Doc's answer would be something like "Zach, that's crazy, guys always have a chance to get better. DeMar seems like a good player, and if he puts the work in, which it seems he does, I'm sure he'll have a good chance at improving his shot." Yeah, he'd probably say something like chance, because Doc is smart, and he knows that things could go either way....But that's the point: things could go either way. DeMar is still too young to say he's a finished product.
    To be honest, I wasn't trying to interject myself in the actual Derozan debate. I like the guy personally and don't understand a lot of the vitriole thrown his way but I don't think you're going to be a very good team if he's your second option either. But you're right, he's still young enough that you can't call him a finished product regardless of where you stand on him.

    I was really just trying to give a little objectivity to the discussion, and I thought it was a little silly that you guys seemed to be waving this one response from Rivers in the air, with your fingers in your ears refusing to listen to other opinions on DD. It was a lob ball question from the media and a diplomatic answer from Doc. It doesn't deserve that much weight in my opinion.

  16. #33
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    White men cant jump, your point about his work ethic is where our opinions on him begin to converge. I had my doubts prior to this season because of his mixed results. But his improved jumper from mid-range, consistent foul shooting, and decent ability to go to the rack both ways suggest that work ethic is both in place and beginning to pay dividends. I'm more skeptical about his value at his new salary level than you (particularly because we had no reason to extend when we did), but we're getting closer to the same page here.

    hesketh, when i said "this post" i was referring to my reply only. Seems to me your still stuck on debating whom the more relevant source of info is rather than your actual obersavation of Demar's performance, growth potential, and overall value. The "agree to disagree" offering is reserved for when you've run out of points but still refuse to move off a stance. But, something tells me that you're on a similar page to the common ground White Men Cant Jump and I found in my previous paragraph.

  17. #34
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    To be honest, I wasn't trying to interject myself in the actual Derozan debate. I like the guy personally and don't understand a lot of the vitriole thrown his way but I don't think you're going to be a very good team if he's your second option either. But you're right, he's still young enough that you can't call him a finished product regardless of where you stand on him.

    I was really just trying to give a little objectivity to the discussion, and I thought it was a little silly that you guys seemed to be waving this one response from Rivers in the air, with your fingers in your ears refusing to listen to other opinions on DD. It was a lob ball question from the media and a diplomatic answer from Doc. It doesn't deserve that much weight in my opinion.
    Ok, I was clearly throwing a little exaggeration about how all-important Doc's quotes should be, but he is a very legit source of an opinion, even given a lob from the reporter.

    It's also partly because Doc's quote is very apt. DeMar doesn't get a lot of attention outside Toronto, so there really isn't a lot of talk about him. If you watch Raptors games though, and maybe have League Pass like I do, then you also probably notice how frequently DeMar is talkd about by other teams' broadcast crews...and I mean beyond the general talking points. DeMar, JV and Amir were basically the only players who got positive attention on a consistent basis...and every once in a while AA when he'd have a crazy game and people were clearly like "who the fuck is this guy?"

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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    hesketh, you arent going to win an argument by saying that Zach Lowe doesn't know shit about basketball.

    I was very down on Demar going into the year and I am slightly encouraged at the end of it. He's a lot more consistent with his jumper. Unfortunately, he's worked very hard to develop the most inefficient shot in basketball. Here's hoping he can extend that range a few more feet (I suspect that's the plan). You've gotta love his ability to get to the line, and he's a more aware defender than this time last year. All good signs. But at the end of the day he's still an inefficient offensive player and an irresponsible defender. He's not worth the money he's due

    If he were still on a rookie deal, he'd be a nice value piece. But now he's making roughly Lawson/Curry money. He's gotta 1) learn where to aggressively help on D; 2) extend his range beyond the 3 pt arc; 3) increase is BBIQ to the point that he's making lightning quick reads to keep the ball moving at a step ahead of the defense. Smooth, laser-like passes; cutting at the right time with no hesitation; and not disappearing for large stretches. Dude's got a long way to go before he's a value piece at almost $10 mil.

    But back to the original point of this post - Any time youre dismissing Zach Lowe's analysis as inaccurate or inconsequential, youre very likely losing an argument.
    Demar also needs to contining driving the lane. If he can hit jumper great but don't fall so in love with it that you forget to drive the lane when the opportunity presents itself.

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  20. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    White men cant jump, your point about his work ethic is where our opinions on him begin to converge. I had my doubts prior to this season because of his mixed results. But his improved jumper from mid-range, consistent foul shooting, and decent ability to go to the rack both ways suggest that work ethic is both in place and beginning to pay dividends. I'm more skeptical about his value at his new salary level than you (particularly because we had no reason to extend when we did), but we're getting closer to the same page here.

    hesketh, when i said "this post" i was referring to my reply only. Seems to me your still stuck on debating whom the more relevant source of info is rather than your actual obersavation of Demar's performance, growth potential, and overall value. The "agree to disagree" offering is reserved for when you've run out of points but still refuse to move off a stance. But, something tells me that you're on a similar page to the common ground White Men Cant Jump and I found in my previous paragraph.
    This is really the only problem with what happened, and somewhat agree with you. I don't think any team would've pegged DeMar for much more than what his extension is....maybe 10 or 11 million, tops, given his youth and potential for further growth. So if management was willing to settle at 9.5 million, and maybe was hoping to get an 8 or 8.5 mil per season type deal, I might have stayed firm at those "hoped" numbers, and gambled that no team would offer him more than 9 or 10 in the offseason...and possibly end up signing him for less (I still think he'd go for at least around 7.5 or 8 million)

    The downside of waiting is not just risking the number you want, though. Maybe if he doesn't like his offers, he also is unwilling to sign for 4 years at the end of the season. Short deals can seem attractive, but if his value grows, it leads to another decision on whether to pay him more or trade him. This could end up with the team paying him more overall (giving in to his demands), or with the team being forced into a trade scenario they don't really want (again giving into his demands). I think his current deal protects the team the most in all scenarios. If he grows it's very good value, and if he doesn't, it's still fair enough that he should be a good piece in a helpful trade, if that's what the team decides to, and in this scenario, they'd likely be able to decide that on their terms instead of his.

  21. #37
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    Ok, first off, Zach Lowe is the ultimate x's and o's blogger out there. I respect his opinion more that any writer out there. That being said, I think his mind would change slightly if he could rewrite that article now. Demar's stats have improved across the board (ok slightly) from a year ago, but it shows a continual improvement.

    Also, I don't know how much validity a Doc Rivers post game quote is. He's not going to go off on a player or anything.

    So in conclusion, both your quotes suck.
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    We're all Raptors fans here boys, no need to get all worked up.

  23. #39
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Seems to me your still stuck on debating whom the more relevant source of info is rather than your actual obersavation of Demar's performance, growth potential, and overall value.
    I'm not stuck on anything. If anyone knows me around here, they know how much I think of Demar's game, his value, his character & his work ethic; among other things. Only one of those can be backed up by stats, but that doesn't by any means, imply it is the only one to consider when determining a players worth to the team.

    Among many things, Demar has improved his efficiency. And that's the key to his game going to the next level in my opinion.
    In the final 10 games of the Season, a stretch where the Raptors went 7-3, Demar Derozan averaged 22.1ppg on 52% shooting, & 50% from 3(9-18). Small sample, fine. But you can stretch that back to the All-Star break, and see the exact same trends.
    He's getting better every week. And I have no fears about Demars game continuing to improve in ALL facets. Therefore, I think its no surprise that I take exception to someone saying "he's not very good". I think that's just silly. Perhaps compared to Steph Curry, ya fine. I concede. But I didn't think that was ever the debate.


    Quote NoBan wrote:
    The "agree to disagree" offering is reserved for when you've run out of points but still refuse to move off a stance.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure its reserved for when I can't handle anymore pointless back and forth that will result in no ones opinion being changed.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue May 7th, 2013 at 06:49 PM.
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  24. #40
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    What does the NBA think of Demar? He's a part of the US national basketball system! One of 30 or so NBA players in that system. There's your answer. He's not a star. But to say he is bad, or mediocre is ridiculous. He was drafted 9th. What do you expect from the man? The vitriol and nonsense thrown at him on these boards is silly.

    Bargnani was drafted first. LA, Gay and others developed faster than him but some of the same people dumping on Demar were telling us that he still had a chance to reach his potential. Same people who thought giving Bargs an insane contract for no reason was okay. Same people who deep in their hearts think when he is moved he'll play better on another team...ENOUGH!

    Demar, a player destined to be a sidekick, who makes sidekick money (9 mill is not star money) is better than your hero. Deal with it. It's not Demar's fault that Curry is underpaid (Curry can blame his ankles). This summer watch what type of money OJ Mayo gets -- and he had a far worse season.

    Back to the original point: GSW were a much better team than the Raptors but they kept a number of their players sidelined to get the record they got and the lottery pick. Should the Raps have done the same for Lillard or Barnes? Why not? But if they were still planning to sell Bargnani as a star, how would the past season have been any different?

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