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Thread: RaptorsHQ: Media Roundtable End of Season Edition

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default RaptorsHQ: Media Roundtable End of Season Edition

    http://www.raptorshq.com/2013/5/8/43...ey-valanciunas

    Lots of stuff rehashed that Raptor fans have been talking about non-stop - especially here. Worth the click and a good read.

    The panel for this discussion is:

    Again for this edition we've got a stellar cast including TSN.ca's Tim Chisholm, the National Post's Eric Koreen, Raptorblog's Joseph Casciaro, and Ryan Wolstat of the Toronto Sun.
    I figured I'd put the questions discussed in the article here for discussion in this thread. I don't want to copy and paste the whole article because that is not quite fair to that site. I HIGHLY recommend clicking the link.


    RaptorsHQ: So I'll kick things off like this: Forget grades, forget 4 and 19, forget Rudy Gay's field goal percentage marks for a minute. Do you think this season overall was a step forward for the franchise on the court?

    RHQ: So sounds like everyone's in agreement here, the season was indeed a disappointment for a variety of reasons. What about the final stretch, including the team winning five in a row to cap off the campaign. Was that fool's gold, or indeed a sign of "better times ahead?"

    RHQ: Nice work on the PE reference, especially with them being recent Hall of Fame inductees.

    So the answers given to the last two questions, one of the next logical questions is: "given that the season was overall viewed as a step back for the franchise, and that most aren't putting much stock in the late, late season win streak, should those responsible for the orchestration of the franchise, be shown the door?"

    This obviously means Bryan Colangelo so a) do you think he should be given another shot as President/GM and b) do you think he will be?

    And what about Coach Casey?

    What I find hilariously/maddeningly/painfully/unsurprisingly is: everyone is in agreement the team did not move forward and may have even taken a step back and everyone is in agreement the wins at the end of the season are 'fools gold' but yet not everyone is in agreement change is needed or are on the fence.


    How would you answer the questions?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    1) Season was not a step forward. Sideways at best seems the most realistically optimistic. 10-17 with Gay and opportunity to make playoffs before end of season winning streak is what should not be forgotten.

    2) Absolutely fools gold. The fact Raptor fans think differently is confusing as this song has been played before with both individual players and team results.

    3) Colangelo and Casey should definitely be sent packing.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    1) The season as a whole wasn't really a disappointment, as I wasn't expecting much and the raps came pretty close to my projected wins (36 vs. 34). The terrible start was offset by Gay's game winners, which were offset by the mediocre performances thereafter, which was offset by Jonas' development. We definitely didn't make any leaps though.

    2) Yes, fools gold. 100% fool's gold.

    3) I'd be happy to see coangelo gone. If we were to somehow land phil jackson than he has carte blanche to hire his own coaching staff. Otherwise, even if bc goes I think Casey should get 1 more season.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    1) I don't know. Personally a think it was a step back, though not a major one. This team is closer to the playoffs, but in the larger scheme of things, not closer to a championship without more moves. So the reason I consider it a step back is because of the old saying "one step forward and two steps back", because for this team to make the jump from borderline playoff team to contender, they need more changes and will be hard pressed to get the piece(s) they need.

    2)Fool's gold. End of season wins are always fool's gold. Very few positives actually, in the late part of the season. JV...that's it. Mostly because you can believe in what he showed, since he steadily improved.

    3)I think BC should be fired, but I'm also not sure they'll be able to make the kind of management change that's needed. I would be ok with Stefanski for a year though, if it came to that.

    As for Casey, despite some serious late season anger toward him, I'm pretty indifferent. I would be ok with him for another year. As much as I rag on him for rotations and treatment of young players, I do think behind the scenes, he coaches and develops players very well. I've said this before, but even with the sometimes short leash, every player that has been here through Triano and Casey has improved more with Casey. I would also be ok with a change, but not for just anybody....and beyond the more obvious names, probably just Byron Scott and Brian Shaw among my choices.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    1) I agree with Matt, at best this season was a step sideways for the Raptors. Perhaps necessary to get Jonas up to speed for next season where I hope he can help Amir anchor our D. I also like that we got a talent like Rudy Gay on the roster. Will Rudy and DeMar form an imposing tandem in the league next season or is this just Sonny and DeMar 2.0?

    2) Fools Gold

    3) It's time for BC to go. It should be pretty black and white to everyone now that we need a change. If he managed to move AB at some point this season then I might have considered bringing him back, but I don't want to hear that he was injured excuse. Bogut got moved with injury as well as Bynum, so no reason AB should still be here.
    I'd love to see what Casey can do if given one more opportunity without BC watching over him. I have a hard time accepting that the turn around on D in Casey's first year was just luck. Of course if there was a clear upgrade to be had like Stan Van Gundy then I'd be okay with firing Casey as well

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    The butting heads between KLow and Casey has been spoken about by analysts but nothing officially stated I dont know what to believe on that..

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    1. Step backwards. Some improvement, but way less flexibility financially, to the point where it is going to take some unbelievable trades to gain any back.

    2. As has been already mentioned, fools gold...with the proviso that JV's progress seemed real once he finally got consistent playing time. Note to Dwayne.

    3. Bye bye to BC and Casey. Less solid on Casey. He finally seemed to understand his players a little better at the end of the season. The players all seem like they haven't tuned him out but the defensive step back is tough to explain.


    The only thing that gives me pause, wrt getting rid of BC and Casey is this:

    "(Casey's) defensive ability was evident again over the final few months of the season, where the lineup of Kyle Lowry, DeMar DeRozan, Rudy Gay, Amir Johnson and Jonas Valanciunas emerged as a top-five unit in terms of defensive rating, and I'd like to see what that five-man unit can achieve in a full year under Dwane."

    However, a new GM/Coach tandem in which the coach understands and can implement a decent defensive unit would be completely acceptable to me.
    Last edited by Puffer; Thu May 9th, 2013 at 09:05 AM.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that Koreen essentially says the major problems are with Casey's system not fitting the Players. Or the other way around.
    Which I can't actually argue with. I can appreciate BC trying to instill a Defensive mindset into Offensively minded Players, but at some point you're trying to squeeze a Square peg into a Round hole.
    Last edited by Joey; Thu May 9th, 2013 at 09:14 AM.
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    1. Tim and Eric say it all.

    2. Fool's gold; some seem think the percentages of those games (e.g.) were somehow telling of an improvement. I don't believe in that.

    3. I have a problem with our team not having a long term identity at all. Right now we don't even have a short term one. I'd be all for the owner(group), president and gm defining an identity for the team. Next they make sure that they get a coach that fits that identity and when they evaluate their players and bring in new players, they make sure they are a fit for that identity. I have the feeling this is not happening at all with our team. I'd like them to adopt a 'philosophy' which strongly incorporates advanced statistics (not wp and such reductionist stats which don't help you on the floor, but real advanced statistics) and really makes use of the tools of the analytics department. For this BC needs to go; he's just too much of an opportunist. I don't know about Casey; I don't have much faith in his 'system'. The analytics department also needs to go, they are too much mouthpieces and I doubt they really challenge management and the coaches. They lost me when they started proclaiming that the iso's work very good for us. I'd like to see the math on that, because I just don't believe it.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    1. Tim and Eric say it all.

    2. Fool's gold; some seem think the percentages of those games (e.g.) were somehow telling of an improvement. I don't believe in that.

    3. I have a problem with our team not having a long term identity at all. Right now we don't even have a short term one. I'd be all for the owner(group), president and gm defining an identity for the team. Next they make sure that they get a coach that fits that identity and when they evaluate their players and bring in new players, they make sure they are a fit for that identity. I have the feeling this is not happening at all with our team. I'd like them to adopt a 'philosophy' which strongly incorporates advanced statistics (not wp and such reductionist stats which don't help you on the floor, but real advanced statistics) and really makes use of the tools of the analytics department. For this BC needs to go; he's just too much of an opportunist. I don't know about Casey; I don't have much faith in his 'system'. The analytics department also needs to go, they are too much mouthpieces and I doubt they really challenge management and the coaches. They lost me when they started proclaiming that the iso's work very good for us. I'd like to see the math on that, because I just don't believe it.
    Things are starting to look like a trickle down effect. Ownership has been on the scene for less than a year.

    Ownership: Rogers/Bell
    CEO: Leiweke
    President: TBD
    GM: TBD
    Coach: TBD

    You don't get organizational change overnight. But it would appear change is coming.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    1. Season was a disappointment. The modest goal of "competing for the playoffs" was not achieved in any sense. The team has no cap room, no draft pick and no elite player. There is really no good faith argument for claiming this season met expectations or went according to plan.

    2. The worst kind of fool's gold as one of the guys wrote on RapsHQ.

    3. Ugh. It's the same old arguments over and over but I'll address one: the idea that you continuity and stability are valuable concepts in and of themselves. Short answer: they are not. Now, if you have a successful business, then stability and continuity are important so that you keep doing the things that makes you successful with the people and ideas that have built that success. When you have a failing, underachieving business that can't do anything right, stability and continuity are the last things you want because that means you are keeping in place the same people and ideas that have been failing miserably. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. AT ALL.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I still think that good coach can stick something good from the material he has and Raptors material isn't that bad, I mean let's think, are all these players really that bad? No, they are young, athletic, can be efficient from mid range, some from 3pt, above average bigs. Pop , McHale or Thib would do wonders with this roster, I mean if not wonders then at least would have made playoffs this year and I'm sure about that, we had perfect opportunity to do that even after the big trade. Yes our bench "sucks" from what we have seen, but what we have seen? ISO's, first unit has talent so these plays are usually effective, but then 2nd quarter and 2nd unit plays ISO's as well, we loose the lead... and you know the rest of the story so well it even hurts... But is it just their fault? Not really. Yes BC has screwed it up a little bit too soon, now with Tim summer would have been way more interesting with that cap room and flexibility we had, but the situation isn't that miserable. Analysts were praising Raptors to be in Playoffs and there's good reasoning behind that, same story for next year as well, on paper team is capable, it's just that DC is not the right fit for Head Coach for such team. IMO.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; Thu May 9th, 2013 at 11:50 AM.
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    1. The only thing good about the team going forward is that JV was as described when drafted. But from a team point of view I can't see how this past season can be a step forward in the right direction.

    2. Definitely fools gold.. they beat teams that were already properly seeded in the playoffs and were resting a lot of their top guys. And we've seen this before.. I'm not sticking my finger in that light socket again.

    3). What was that avatar that Matt used to use again? That is the reason why Bryan needs to go (oh and DeMar's extension). Casey's a tough call.. "hell and high water" and ranking 22nd in defense are fireable offenses.. but the players seem to like playing for him and that's very important. If the team had a proper identity (bring on Phil!) then yeah sure get rid of him.. but if we are replacing Bryan with a stop gap solution (like Stefanski) then keep him for another year.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Hate to try and improve on your post but:

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    1. Season was a disappointment. The modest goal of "competing for the playoffs" was not achieved in any sense. The team has no cap room, no draft pick and no elite player. There is really no good faith argument for claiming this season met expectations or went according to plan.

    2. The worst kind of fool's gold as one of the guys wrote on RapsHQ.

    3. Ugh. It's the same old arguments over and over but I'll address one: the idea that you continuity and stability are valuable concepts in and of themselves. Short answer: they are not. Now, if you have a successful business, then stability and continuity are important so that you keep doing the things that makes you successful with the people and ideas that have built that success. When you have a failing, underachieving business that can't do anything right, stability and continuity are the last things you want because that means you are keeping in place the same people and ideas that have been failing miserably. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. AT ALL.
    This was originally not emphasized enough.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    I still think that good coach can stick something good from the material he has and Raptors material isn't that bad, I mean let's think, are all these players really that bad? No, they are young, athletic, can be efficient from mid range, some from 3pt, above average bigs. Pop , McHale or Thib would do wonders with this roster, I mean if not wonders then at least would have made playoffs this year and I'm sure about that, we had perfect opportunity to do that even after the big trade. Yes our bench "sucks" from what we have seen, but what we have seen? ISO's, first unit has talent so these plays are usually effective, but then 2nd quarter and 2nd unit plays ISO's as well, we loose the lead... and you know the rest of the story so well it even hurts... But is it just their fault? Not really. Yes BC has screwed it up a little bit too soon, now with Tim summer would have been way more interesting with that cap room and flexibility we had, but the situation isn't that miserable. Analysts were praising Raptors to be in Playoffs and there's good reasoning behind that, same story for next year as well, on paper team is capable, it's just that DC is not the right fit for Head Coach for such team. IMO.
    On the first bold...no, they weren't, fans were. Analysts were saying this team could have an outside shot at squeaking into the playoffs if everything went right. Everything didn't go right, so they finished about exactly where they should..mid 30s in wins I think was a pretty standard expectation.

    And I'm not going to agree/disagree with DC stance, but I think you overvalue the coaching impact. Looking at playoff teams, there is only one you can safely say was not really more talented than Toronto...Milwaukee. On paper, the Raptors roster did not compare to obvious playoff teams well at all, and they were always considered a fringe playoff team at best.

    Now, was coachign an issue? Maybe. It seemed so at times.....But, so were players underperforming. Obviously Andrea who gets rightfully blamed for it, but Lowry seems to get endless excuses from many on these forums. He played like crap this year, and I think much less of it is Casey's fault than some around here make it out to be. Also injuries were a legit issue, especially when coupled with roster construction. JV and Bargs go down, and suddenly they're a small ball team with bad shooters...good job BC. I honestly don't know if any coach could've gotten the Raps to the playoffs this year. I thought before the season everything would've had to go totally right just for 38-40 wins.

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    Additionally, having a GM who fires a quality coach for no logical reason, who turns over the roster every year is not stability either. If the GM/President cannot create stability the whole franchise is unstable.

    I guess this year was an incremental step forward. Only because at the end of the year expectations grew from should fight for a playoff spot to they will be in the playoffs next year.

    Colangelo will survive, but I would have fired him years ago. Firing Mitchell and overpaying Bargnani should have sealed his fate.

    Fool's gold? I don't know but MLSE is getting one of those funky green rings around they neck from wearing that cheap necklaces too long.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    On the first bold...no, they weren't, fans were. Analysts were saying this team could have an outside shot at squeaking into the playoffs if everything went right. Everything didn't go right, so they finished about exactly where they should..mid 30s in wins I think was a pretty standard expectation.

    And I'm not going to agree/disagree with DC stance, but I think you overvalue the coaching impact. Looking at playoff teams, there is only one you can safely say was not really more talented than Toronto...Milwaukee. On paper, the Raptors roster did not compare to obvious playoff teams well at all, and they were always considered a fringe playoff team at best.

    Now, was coachign an issue? Maybe. It seemed so at times.....But, so were players underperforming. Obviously Andrea who gets rightfully blamed for it, but Lowry seems to get endless excuses from many on these forums. He played like crap this year, and I think much less of it is Casey's fault than some around here make it out to be. Also injuries were a legit issue, especially when coupled with roster construction. JV and Bargs go down, and suddenly they're a small ball team with bad shooters...good job BC. I honestly don't know if any coach could've gotten the Raps to the playoffs this year. I thought before the season everything would've had to go totally right just for 38-40 wins.
    Well I'll be short, I just don't support the system DC is playing, watching that kind of basketball doesn't really satisfy me as a fan after I watch games of Houston for instance. Totally fresh and young team as well, but the plays are actually working and players are able to make easier shots. While when you watch TOR playing you see very random stuff, very random, players throwing 3 pointers over the hands like it's 24th second or just going one on one, ignoring the bigs inside. I'm Raps fan, theres no subjectivity in these statements.

    Concerning the fans/analysts part, yeah maybe. Though there were few analysts covering this topic as I remmember "Toronto 8th-7th seed" etc.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Additionally, having a GM who fires a quality coach for no logical reason, who turns over the roster every year is not stability either. If the GM/President cannot create stability the whole franchise is unstable.

    I guess this year was an incremental step forward. Only because at the end of the year expectations grew from should fight for a playoff spot to they will be in the playoffs next year.

    Colangelo will survive, but I would have fired him years ago. Firing Mitchell and overpaying Bargnani should have sealed his fate.

    Fool's gold? I don't know but MLSE is getting one of those funky green rings around they neck from wearing that cheap necklaces too long.
    MLSE has new owners and is currently making changes. Leiweke did not come cheap and he was a huge get for the entire MLSE.

    Maybe I am naive but organizational change appears to be in the works.

    Rogers and Bell absolutely NEED winners for content to maximize profits for the shareholders.

    Spending more on salaries and rosters could significantly increase ad, merchandise, concession, etc. revenues.

    I think the days of the OTPP are over and I think the days of pulling the wool over the eyes of ownership is over.

    Again, maybe I am naive.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Well I'll be short, I just don't support the system DC is playing, watching that kind of basketball doesn't really satisfy me as a fan after I watch games of Houston for instance. Totally fresh and young team as well, but the plays are actually working and players are able to make easier shots. While when you watch TOR playing you see very random stuff, very random, players throwing 3 pointers over the hands like it's 24th second or just going one on one, ignoring the bigs inside. I'm Raps fan, theres no subjectivity in these statements.

    Concerning the fans/analysts part, yeah maybe. Though there were few analysts covering this topic as I remmember "Toronto 8th-7th seed" etc.
    Yes, but is that on the coach?

    The one I keep going back to is the Irving 3 pter over Anderson. DC was visibly screaming at AA to close the gap for seconds before Irving took the shot. This is likely the way he teaches it in practice as well. AA is also supposed to be his veteran. Well, when your veteran can't make the play the way you want, your team probably sucks balls...I use the defensive example because I remember a specific one, but you see Casey screaming, waving, doing anything to try to get players to execute on offense.

    I mean, Gay is an awful (not necessarily unwilling) passer who throws it all over the place. DeMar literally treated JV like he had the plague for a pretty extended time in the season. Lowry played heroball for the first 2 months. Again, I'm not sure what a different coach really could have done. Bench all those guys and try to win with Lucas, Pietrus and Kleiza?

    I guess my argument is that I'm not sure that these players, for the most part, would fit any system that well, especially when combined together, and especially the way they played this year.

    *People have compared it to knocking square pegs in round holes....I think that's an understatement.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu May 9th, 2013 at 01:02 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    1. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this season was a step forward, but a very small step indeed. The record, presence of Bargs, and inconsistencies throughout the season say otherwise. However, the emergence of JV is certainly something to be excited about. Furthermore, the mid-season trade to acquire Gay elevated the team on a talent level, and I think it gave the rest of the team more confidence. It gave us a legit closer, someone we can to go down the stretch which was something that was clearly missing at the beginning of the season. We did have the opportunity to make a solid playoff push, but the team didn't look like it really wanted it and that was disappointing. But, I think this team looks better now than it did at the beginning of the season so I'll consider it a step forward although we didn't realize the goal of making the playoffs, which I considered a long shot anyways.

    2. Fool's gold

    3. I am satisfied with Casey for now, but he has to get back to instilling a defensive culture in this team. I'm indifferent to Colangelo for now, simply because I'm not sure firing him now will have a great impact on the team for next season. That being said, if Phil is available and willing then we can clear out the entire front office to make room for him if that's what it takes.

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