View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #161
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Actually I think Apollo came out from left field with his 'statement' that no GM would come here with a team that got blown up. I don't think there is a single person in the universe who thinks it should (or could) be done before a GM is hired.
    I didn't say "no GM" is said no high profile GM. The Raptors are the kiss of death, just look at that track record. The emphasis needs to be on turning the ship right now. Ripping it down is a controversial approach anyway. For every success story you have half a dozen horror stories; Raptors included multiple times.

  2. #162
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I didn't say "no GM" is said no high profile GM. The Raptors are the kiss of death, just look at that track record. The emphasis needs to be on turning the ship right now. Ripping it down is a controversial approach anyway. For every success story you have half a dozen horror stories; Raptors included multiple times.
    Actually the Raptors are a model of why teams *should* rip it down. Look at the last 5 years. If Colangelo had been willing to rebuild and not retool back then, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  3. #163
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Stop writing "Raptors mediocrity" your Xmas wishlist:

    You don't know that. The Raptors have torn it down multiple times and Colangelo had two separate cracks at it with lots of cap space and couldn't get it done. You don't need to rip it down, you need somebody in there that can make the right decisions.

    Gutting and nose diving isn't a proven method to victory.

    At some point the Raptors need to build a level of consistency in making the playoffs before high profile FA's are ever going to want to consider coming here without there being extra money involved. Gutting is only going to further destroy the reputation of the team and at a time when they're just about ready to make a playoff push. Chances are they're not going to hit a Durant and Westbrook combo in the draft. They should rebuild credibility now when eyebrows are raised at the executive shuffle. They should strike now at the playoff while keeping the long term in mind; it is very possible to do this.

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  5. #164
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You don't know that. The Raptors have torn it down multiple times and Colangelo had two separate cracks at it with lots of cap space and couldn't get it done. You don't need to rip it down, you need somebody in there that can make the right decisions.
    In fairness the only 2 times we tore it down completely we ended up with a team that eventually went to Game 7 of the 2nd round and a team that won the Atlantic division.

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  7. #165
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You don't know that. The Raptors have torn it down multiple times and Colangelo had two separate cracks at it with lots of cap space and couldn't get it done. You don't need to rip it down, you need somebody in there that can make the right decisions.

    Gutting and nose diving isn't a proven method to victory.
    Things are so up to chance it's ridiculous...For every OKC or Portland there's a Charlotte or Sacramento. And even OKC needed some very very real luck. Even bad luck. If, as Seattle, they had won the draft lottery in the Oden/Durant year instead of Portland (both teams were longshots to even land where they did), things could have been much different for both teams. Heck, if they had kept their expected positions (5th SEA, 7th POR), it could've been a pretty terrible draft for both.

  8. #166
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    In fairness the only 2 times we tore it down completely we ended up with a team that eventually went to Game 7 of the 2nd round and a team that won the Atlantic division.
    What? This wasn't a rebuild. It's not a rebuild when you have no assets. The team had 3 horrible seasons. They draft Carter, and their fortunes changed. I don't know if trading Camby for Oakley is really blowing it up. And despite the special place he has in Raptors fans hearts, Stoudemire was a thorougly average PG. It was not like the team traded away a real franchise player.

    I somewhat agree that the team tried to do a real rebuild going into the Bosh era. But they also failed to do it properly. In the end, the team that won the Atlantic division was not built patiently by stocking assets. It was built by on the fly by just plugging holes. And that has been Colangelo's strategy since.

    The last 2-3 seasons is when they should have committed to a proper rebuild, and basically "tank". But they didn't. Basically, BC should have been firm with Bosh in the season and told him "if you can't give me a commitment now I'm trading you before the deadline". Who knows what the does for things? I think the team would've given up on the season, so probably a fair amount of extra losses. It wasn't the best draft, but even better chances at John Wall (Wiz at the 5th worst record, so they moved up) would have been nice. Not to mention Paul George was taken at 10, and he was the guy I wanted so badly in that draft...just 3 spots ahead of Toronto.

    Basically, I'm not sure this team has ever really blown it up and done a good job. Again, I can't count the first years as blowing anything up. The success in the Bosh years was not really a result of the "rebuilding" done by Babcock (that's why it wasn't sustainable, because it was just a constant patch-job). And the most recent opportunity was basically wasted.

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  10. #167
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    All that is besides the point, at 2 points in our franchise we became a bottom 3 team in consecutive years* and following those years we ended up going as far as we have as a franchise thanks in large part to the players we got in those drafts.



    *3 but I'm not including inaugural years as the deck was pretty stacked against us at that point (no #1 picks for 3 years)

  11. #168
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Objection your honor...

    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    In fairness the only 2 times we tore it down completely we ended up with a team that eventually went to Game 7 of the 2nd round and a team that won the Atlantic division.
    Right, they ended with game seven in the second round only to go on one of the most pathetically awful stretches in league history and to say they built that team due to a deconstruction is inaccurate. They loaded up with a lot of tough vets via trades and FA after (unintentionally)wallowing in the lotto since their existence. You could argue that they took a similar means back then to what I'm saying now except I want there to be a focus on the future and not on trying to make a one hit wonder, cap be damned.

    And come on, who are we kidding here. Why don't you state their record the year they won the Atlantic? While you're at it tell us how the rest of the division did that year? Nice try though...
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed May 22nd, 2013 at 02:59 PM. Reason: iphone

  12. #169
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    All that is besides the point, at 2 points in our franchise we became a bottom 3 team in consecutive years* and following those years we ended up going as far as we have as a franchise thanks in large part to the players we got in those drafts.



    *3 but I'm not including inaugural years as the deck was pretty stacked against us at that point (no #1 picks for 3 years)
    Umm...this is not actually true at all. The Raptors have never been a bottom 3 team for consecutive years.

  13. #170
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    And come on, who are we kidding here. Why don't you state their record the year they won the Atlantic? While you're at it tell us how the rest of the division did that year? Nice try though...
    Their record was 47-35, their best record all-time. Actually tied for best record all-time, tied with the team that went to Game 7 of the Conference Semis.

  14. #171
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Umm...this is not actually true at all. The Raptors have never been a bottom 3 team for consecutive years.
    You're right about that, that part I got wrong, but let's change bottom 3 team to bottom dwellers and able to draft in top 5.

  15. #172
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Blowing it up is a stupid idea period.

  16. #173
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default The Follow-Up

    1. With that many wins what place would they be in the conference standings this last season?
    2. With that many wins what place would they be in the division standings this last season?
    3. What was their record the following season and the season after that?


    Do you see where I'm going with this?


    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    Their record was 47-35, their best record all-time. Actually tied for best record all-time, tied with the team that went to Game 7 of the Conference Semis.

  17. #174
    Raptors Republic All-Star Sig's Avatar
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    Fun fact: the Raptors along with Charlotte are the only franchises currently in the NBA to never have achieved 50-win season

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  19. #175
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Right. The Kings of blowing it up haven't won a darn thing. Thanks for bringing that stat up Sig.

  20. #176
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Is it me or does DD become the odd man out more and more each day?

  21. #177
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think the point is that any "blowing it up" should wait for the new GM to be hired, so that they have the assets to work with, in order to tear down / rebuild the team the way they say fit. I don't think a GM would want a team to be blown up right before they're hired, since they'd have a lot less options available with all the most tradeable assets gone.
    Yes, of course; The newly hired GM would be the one "tearing it down". Who else would do it?

  22. #178
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Is it me or does DD become the odd man out more and more each day?
    Maybe. I would imagine everyone but JV is a likely candidate to be moved now.

    "I guess I don't think that we're 'right there,'" Leiweke said. "I don't think we're a piece away. I think we have work to do."
    Only reason why JV is likely safe is because he has shown his floor to be an average to slightly above average NBA centre - the hardest position to fill in the NBA.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  23. #179
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Tim Leiweke wrote:
    "I guess I don't think that we're 'right there,'" Leiweke said. "I don't think we're a piece away. I think we have work to do."
    At least someone gets it. Fortunately for us, it's the guy on top.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  25. #180
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Everyone gets that. We're just not all on board with slashing the cap to nothing, praying for a high pick, praying that the high pick turns out to be a really good player and then praying that really good player decides to stay in Toronto. We've been there, we've seen this. It hasn't worked and I personally don't want to sit through three to five more seasons of losing to have a couple chances at the roulette wheel and to see them overpay for free agents.

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