View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #201
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call Cleveland's situaiton better than Toronto's...probably wouldn't call it worse either...but I don't see anything that suggests that they are on a path to sustainable winning. They have on top tier talent....a shoot-first PG with fragility concerns who doesn't play D, and does a shit (really shit) job getting his teammates involved at the moment.

  2. #202
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't call Cleveland's situaiton better than Toronto's...probably wouldn't call it worse either...but I don't see anything that suggests that they are on a path to sustainable winning. They have on top tier talent....a shoot-first PG with fragility concerns who doesn't play D, and does a shit (really shit) job getting his teammates involved at the moment.
    I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs

  3. #203
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs
    Right...but in those 2 seasons...Toronto could make the playoffs in both, and then have nothing to build with beyond that except JV. So I think the long-term outlook (beyond the next season or two) is equally cloudy for both teams.

  4. #204
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Honestly outside of Kyrie and maybe Thompson their future is full of mediocre to below average draft picks. I'm not including Varejao because i think he might get moved. Dion Waiters is basically Rodney Stucky 2.0, and Zeller is a very bad finisher (worse than his brother) and he shoots a garbage percentage from the floor. If they pick Mclemore they might be able to move Waiters and fill the SG position long term. But if they seriously think that they are done rebuilding then they must be out of their damn mind.
    Who said they were done rebuilding?

    They're going to add the first and 19th overall picks this year to the crop of Irving (the best player on either roster), Thompson, Zeller, and Waiters (who was quietly one of the best rookies in the league last year by the way). They're also in line to have a top five pick in the loaded 2014 draft, and are owed three other first rounders (Grizzlies, Kings and Heat) between 2014 and 15. They have roughly $20 million in cap space this summer, and another $10 million plus coming off the books the summer after that. They have a big trade piece (Varajeo) that will likely net them more prospects/picks when they trade him this summer or next season. They have so much flexibility right now it's unbelievable; young prospects, tradeable assets, more draft picks then they know what to do with and real salary cap flexibility. This is far from a finished product.

    Whether or not it all turns into a contender remains to be seen but they've nailed the first few steps. I'd rather have the Cavs options and high ceiling moving forward opposed to the Raptors crossing their fingers and hoping that numerous dominoes fall in their direction so they can maybe grab the 6th seed next year.

    I understand it's a debate that will take another couple of years to come to a conclusion on, but I think the fact that the Raptors went "all in" this year in terms of trading away future considerations for the now, and still only won 10 more games than a Cleveland team that was trying to lose is awfully telling.
    Last edited by Fully; Fri May 24th, 2013 at 12:37 PM.

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  6. #205
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Who said they were done rebuilding?

    They're going to add the first and 19th overall picks this year to the crop of Irving (the best player on either roster), Thompson, Zeller, and Waiters (who was quietly one of the best rookies in the league last year by the way). They're also in line to have a top five pick in the loaded 2014 draft, and are owed three other first rounders (Grizzlies, Kings and Heat) between 2014 and 15. They have roughly $20 million in cap space this summer, and another $10 million plus coming off the books the summer after that. They have a big trade piece (Varajeo) that will likely net them more prospects/picks when they trade him this summer or next season. They have so much flexibility right now it's unbelievable; young prospects, tradeable assets, more draft picks then they know what to do with and real salary cap flexibility. This is far from a finished product.

    Whether or not it all turns into a contender remains to be seen but they've nailed the first few steps. I'd rather have the Cavs options and high ceiling moving forward opposed to the Raptors crossing their fingers and hoping that numerous dominoes fall in their direction so they can maybe grab the 6th seed next year.

    I understand it's a debate that will take another couple of years to come to a conclusion on, but I think the fact that the Raptors went "all in" this year in terms of trading away future considerations for the now, and still only won 10 more games than a Cleveland team that was trying to lose is awfully telling.
    Thompson wasn't a rookie this past season... and i hope you don't mean Zeller because he was god awful (8ppg, 5.7 rpg in 27 min while shooting a whooping 43% from the field). Waiters was chucking everything and he average 15 points while shooting 41% from the field, and he didn't bring anything else to the table besides scoring(which he did very poorly). So i really don't know who you are talking about when you say "one of the best rookies in the draft". Both of those two were massively overrated.

  7. #206
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Waiters skyrocketed up the board close to draft time; Colangelo was reported as very high on him. He wasn't on the radar for most of the lead up and then he had some good workouts and suddenly was getting drafted high. Timing is everything.

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs
    And there's no guarantee all those "stud" prospects even develop into players of championship caliber.

  8. #207
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Thompson wasn't a rookie this past season... and i hope you don't mean Zeller because he was god awful (8ppg, 5.7 rpg in 27 min while shooting a whooping 43% from the field). Waiters was chucking everything and he average 15 points while shooting 41% from the field, and he didn't bring anything else to the table besides scoring(which he did very poorly). So i really don't know who you are talking about when you say "one of the best rookies in the draft". Both of those two were massively overrated.
    I never said TT was a rookie? I said he was part of their young core.
    I said Waiters was quietly one of the best rookies last season and he was. Second in rookie scoring, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals, top 10 in 3PM. He made the first team all nba for rookies. Am I missing something?

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs
    Actually, the plan has always been for Cleveland to be competitive in 2014-15 and I for one, expect they will be successful.

  10. #209
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Thompson wasn't a rookie this past season... and i hope you don't mean Zeller because he was god awful (8ppg, 5.7 rpg in 27 min while shooting a whooping 43% from the field). Waiters was chucking everything and he average 15 points while shooting 41% from the field, and he didn't bring anything else to the table besides scoring(which he did very poorly). So i really don't know who you are talking about when you say "one of the best rookies in the draft". Both of those two were massively overrated.
    Zeller is not projected as a starter but rather as a rotation player. The guy can shoot when he does not hesitate. He badly needs some muscle to defend the post and some confidence to trust his instincts. I think he will be fine as a primary backup center.

    Waiters went into shooting frenzy at times, especially when he felt he needed the be scorer when Kyrie was not on the court. His shooting form is not consistent at this time. Waiters can be a primary ball handler, he can create his own shot, and he has the lateral speed to become a good defender. I'm very high on him and would not be surprised if he becomes a minor star in two years. He was certainly one of the best rookies in the draft.

  11. #210
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    And there's no guarantee all those "stud" prospects even develop into players of championship caliber.
    That is correct - and Zeller is certainly not a stud. However, while I think the Raptors are currently better, I believe the Cavaliers have a higher potential ceiling, key word is potential.

    The Raptors will have to make several moves if they are to become better than just a 1st or 2nd round team. Lots of retooling needed in my opinion and difficult too do so because of their current salary situation.

    The Cavaliers can add players to their core group via the draft (or via trading of these draft picks) and via free agency. I believe that path has more possibilities.

    One thing I like about the Cavaliers is they stuck to the plan.

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  13. #211
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I never said TT was a rookie? I said he was part of their young core.
    I said Waiters was quietly one of the best rookies last season and he was. Second in rookie scoring, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals, top 10 in 3PM. He made the first team all nba for rookies. Am I missing something?
    You're missing that he played on a terrible team where he was given the freedom to chuck anything and everything. Averaging 15 points while shooting 41% from the field is nothing to brag about, especially if you come from a sub par draft class. Him making the all rookie first team over JV shows that those all rookies teams don't really matter.

  14. #212
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    That is correct - and Zeller is certainly not a stud. However, while I think the Raptors are currently better, I believe the Cavaliers have a higher potential ceiling, key word is potential.

    The Raptors will have to make several moves if they are to become better than just a 1st or 2nd round team. Lots of retooling needed in my opinion and difficult too do so because of their current salary situation.

    The Cavaliers can add players to their core group via the draft (or via trading of these draft picks) and via free agency. I believe that path has more possibilities.

    One thing I like about the Cavaliers is they stuck to the plan.
    I really don't know what you people see in the Cavs. All i see is Irving, Thompson, Varejao and then 2 rookies who shot a combined 42 % from the field. One of them being a freaking 7 footer.

    One more thing. How the heck is the Cavs future more bright than the Raptors?

    Cavs line up:
    Irving*
    Waiters
    Gee
    Thompson
    Zeller

    Raps line up:
    Lowry
    DeRozan*
    Gay*
    Johnson*
    Valanciunas*

    * - Advantage

    You can argue youth and potential. But Waiters and Zeller both look like rotation players to me. They only have 1 sure fire all star and 1 solid starter in Thompson. I think all this losing is getting to peoples heads. Our players don't suck, our team sucks! if we had a real coaching staff this team could really be something special. Hopefully the hiring of Leiweke and Ujiri can solve this problem and turn this team into a truly elite team.

    Oh and we have the one biggest advantage, a 20 year old C by the name of Jonas. I don't think some of you understand the impact of a truly skilled 7 footer. Look at what Roy Hibbert did to miami yesterday. JV is already so much further ahead than Roy Hibbert was at this stage, imagine how good he can be. Possibly the best C in the NBA by his 3rd or 4th season, that is very scary.
    Last edited by NoPropsneeded; Sat May 25th, 2013 at 12:42 PM.

  15. #213
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I never said TT was a rookie? I said he was part of their young core.
    I said Waiters was quietly one of the best rookies last season and he was. Second in rookie scoring, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals, top 10 in 3PM. He made the first team all nba for rookies. Am I missing something?
    These rookies made the 1st team after solid rookie seasons...

    -Tyreke Evans 09-10
    -Darren Collison 09-10
    -Landry Fields 10-11
    -Andrea Bargnani 06-07
    -Gary Neal 10-11
    -Al Thornton 07-08
    -Michael Beasley 08-09
    -Ben Gordon 04-05
    -Charlie Villanueva 05-06
    -Jorge Garbajosa 06-07
    -Marc Jackson (not the coach/former PG) 00-01
    -Darius Miles 00-01
    -Drew Gooden 02-03

    Again..these are all 1st team selections. Some had at least a few good years before becoming problem players/contracts (Gordon, Bargs, Gooden). Some washed out pretty fast (though with Garbo it's a special case with his age/injury). Few of them actually had/have promise....Evans can still turn things around. If Fields elbow is good and he can rehab his shot, he should still have a place as a solid role-player for a long time (albeit never again at the crazy contract BC gave him). Collison can still be a fringe starting PG or very good bench player.

    That's not even getting into 2nd teams...in Bargnani's year...the second team was Paul Millsap, Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Craig Smith, and a 3-way tie with Rondo, Walter Herrman and Marcus Williams.

    Now, I actually like aspects of Waiters' game. But I'm on the fence as to what direction he'll go. He had a pretty inconsistent rookie season. His stats seem nice compared to other rookies....But it wasn't the strongest rookie class in terms of "immediate impact" players. I didn't see a lot of growth in Waiters' game during the season. He looked much like the same player from start to finish. His shooting %s were terrible. His assist numbers (3 apg) probably only rank 2nd because it was maybe the weakest PG draft class of all time. And back to his %s, his made 3 pointers are clearly not because of a high proficiency from long range (31%). He was a thoroughly average player on a (bad) team where he had abundant opportunities.

  16. #214
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    Default "Side A" = Farm team status for years to come

    Here is something I put together the other day. I am saying by no means that it is perfect but it's close enough; this was for my own personal use that I am now sharing so please keep that in mind. Anyone who moved their pick on draft day I tried to exclude and replace with the actual team who had the player at the end of the night:

    Full list - click here

    Below I eliminate a lot of the "noise" and get down to the teams we've been talking about in particular:



    This can help gain added perspective perhaps? Let's get back to the Raptors:

    • 2012: Ross, #8
    • 2011: Valanciunas, #5
    • 2010: Davis, #13
    • 2009: DeRozan, #9


    Those who are suggesting that the Raptors haven't been "sticking to the plan" in terms of developing through the draft as one of the primary sources, please explain to me "the plan"? I don't agree with all that Colangelo has done but here we are and let me explain what the two sides boil down to:

    Side A: Purposely lose in hopes of scoring the #1 or in close approximation to the #1.
    Side B: Move forward building with what currently is here.

    I am telling you that in five years time, riding a losing mentality, this team is more likely to be like a Charlotte or Sacramento than an Oklahoma City. Side A's game plan keeps the Raptors as a farm team unless everything goes just right. I don't like those odds.

  17. #215
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Here is something I put together the other day. I am saying by no means that it is perfect but it's close enough; this was for my own personal use that I am now sharing so please keep that in mind. Anyone who moved their pick on draft day I tried to exclude and replace with the actual team who had the player at the end of the night:

    Full list - click here

    Below I eliminate a lot of the "noise" and get down to the teams we've been talking about in particular:



    This can help gain added perspective perhaps? Let's get back to the Raptors:

    • 2012: Ross, #8
    • 2011: Valanciunas, #5
    • 2010: Davis, #13
    • 2009: DeRozan, #9


    Those who are suggesting that the Raptors haven't been "sticking to the plan" in terms of developing through the draft as one of the primary sources, please explain to me "the plan"? I don't agree with all that Colangelo has done but here we are and let me explain what the two sides boil down to:

    Side A: Purposely lose in hopes of scoring the #1 or in close approximation to the #1.
    Side B: Move forward building with what currently is here.

    I am telling you that in five years time, riding a losing mentality, this team is more likely to be like a Charlotte or Sacramento than an Oklahoma City. Side A's game plan keeps the Raptors as a farm team unless everything goes just right. I don't like those odds.
    the plan is bottoming out and picking near the top for a few consecutive years, and not 8-14 over and over again. i think all your list shows is that middling lottery picks begets middling talent and bad to mediocre teams. the path to stay irrelevant in perpetuity.

    when we clinched the not-playoffs earlier this year, some writer (i think eric korreen with the post) went through each of the last five seasons and examined the expectations heading into the season. (ahh yes quick google search here it is: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...y-a-look-back/).

    notice something about that list? the only year we went into it with zero expectations, or rather with the expectation of explicitly sucking to gather talent, we ended up with jonas, who to me is the only thing to be excited about with this franchise. now imagine if we committed to losing a little more, at least having the good sense to not go on these meaningless win streaks at the end of the season, and ended up with two of curry or rubio or barnes or mkg or davis or harden or wall or irving or etc. etc. players that would have been available near the top.

    well we'd be loaded with top talent on rookie scale contracts, and have a squad to truly be excited about.

    what's been most frustrating to me is that management never gave the fan-base the credit to stick through a real re-build. they always went with the quick fixes (retooling not rebuilding) that stuck us in the back end of the lottery, the recipe for irrelevence.

    but reading many of these posts it seems management was right to not give the fan base credit.
    Last edited by chris; Sat May 25th, 2013 at 02:43 PM.

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  19. #216
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    also obviously in full agreement with fully, letter n, ebrian, etc. and would take the cavs squad 100 times over, even though i think they totally botched a couple drafts (imagine an irving-val-barnes core? scary)

    but props to cleveland for having the vision and sticking to it.

  20. #217
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    These rookies made the 1st team after solid rookie seasons...

    -Tyreke Evans 09-10
    -Darren Collison 09-10
    -Landry Fields 10-11
    -Andrea Bargnani 06-07
    -Gary Neal 10-11
    -Al Thornton 07-08
    -Michael Beasley 08-09
    -Ben Gordon 04-05
    -Charlie Villanueva 05-06
    -Jorge Garbajosa 06-07
    -Marc Jackson (not the coach/former PG) 00-01
    -Darius Miles 00-01
    -Drew Gooden 02-03

    Again..these are all 1st team selections. Some had at least a few good years before becoming problem players/contracts (Gordon, Bargs, Gooden). Some washed out pretty fast (though with Garbo it's a special case with his age/injury). Few of them actually had/have promise....Evans can still turn things around. If Fields elbow is good and he can rehab his shot, he should still have a place as a solid role-player for a long time (albeit never again at the crazy contract BC gave him). Collison can still be a fringe starting PG or very good bench player.

    That's not even getting into 2nd teams...in Bargnani's year...the second team was Paul Millsap, Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Craig Smith, and a 3-way tie with Rondo, Walter Herrman and Marcus Williams.

    Now, I actually like aspects of Waiters' game. But I'm on the fence as to what direction he'll go. He had a pretty inconsistent rookie season. His stats seem nice compared to other rookies....But it wasn't the strongest rookie class in terms of "immediate impact" players. I didn't see a lot of growth in Waiters' game during the season. He looked much like the same player from start to finish. His shooting %s were terrible. His assist numbers (3 apg) probably only rank 2nd because it was maybe the weakest PG draft class of all time. And back to his %s, his made 3 pointers are clearly not because of a high proficiency from long range (31%). He was a thoroughly average player on a (bad) team where he had abundant opportunities.
    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You're missing that he played on a terrible team where he was given the freedom to chuck anything and everything. Averaging 15 points while shooting 41% from the field is nothing to brag about, especially if you come from a sub par draft class. Him making the all rookie first team over JV shows that those all rookies teams don't really matter.
    Holy crap guys. I'm not electing Waiters to the Hall of Fame. I just said he was one of the best rookies in the league last year, which he was.

    The list of players who have made all rookie teams to go on and flame out is pointless until we actually know what Waiters becomes. I could post a much longer list of players who made the all rookie teams that went on to have awesome careers and make the same argument, no?

    Yes, he shot 41.2% last season from the floor. Lowry and Ross both shot lower percentages. Rudy Gay was only fractions higher as a vet making $18 million. You both seem to be huge fans of all three of those guys ironically. The reality is that Waiters is a gunner and will never shoot at a crazy high rate. That doesn't make him a scrub. He's a high-ceiling guy making relative peanuts that has true value in this league, whether it's on the Cavs roster or in trade talks.

    And beyond all of that, the reason I envy the Cavs situation goes WAY beyond what I think Waiter's future holds
    Last edited by Fully; Sat May 25th, 2013 at 02:53 PM.

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  22. #218
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    the plan is bottoming out and picking near the top for a few consecutive years, and not 8-14 over and over again. i think all your list shows is that middling lottery picks begets middling talent and bad to mediocre teams. the path to stay irrelevant in perpetuity.

    when we clinched the not-playoffs earlier this year, some writer (i think eric korreen with the post) went through each of the last five seasons and examined the expectations heading into the season. (ahh yes quick google search here it is: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...y-a-look-back/).

    notice something about that list? the only year we went into it with zero expectations, or rather with the expectation of explicitly sucking to gather talent, we ended up with jonas, who to me is the only thing to be excited about with this franchise. now imagine if we committed to losing a little more, at least having the good sense to not go on these meaningless win streaks at the end of the season, and ended up with two of curry or rubio or barnes or mkg or davis or harden or wall or irving or etc. etc. players that would have been available near the top.

    well we'd be loaded with top talent on rookie scale contracts, and have a squad to truly be excited about.

    what's been most frustrating to me is that management never gave the fan-base the credit to stick through a real re-build. they always went with the quick fixes (retooling not rebuilding) that stuck us in the back end of the lottery, the recipe for irrelevence.

    but reading many of these posts it seems management was right to not give the fan base credit.
    The one missing element is luck. Charlotte is a perfect example of a team this year who were not trying to be good, ended up 2nd worst, and slipped to 5th. It is tough when you do all you are suppose to do to build through losing only to have the balls bounce to a team not as bad and having them get ahead of you.

    By the way, only way you are getting 5 of those 8 players (MKG, Davis, Harden, Wall, or Irving - that is 3 #1s, a #2, and a #3) is by lottery luck.

    I'm not trying to pick a side in this debate. There is more than one way to build a team. It is interesting that Harden is now playing for a team that has gone a totally different route than the Cavs or Thunder of the league. Houston drafted smart, accumulated assets, created financial flexibility, and obtained a franchise talent in Harden who they will certainly flaunt to prospective free agents (i.e. the missing ingredient of the last few seasons).

    With there clearly being more way than one to build a team (you might prefer one way, but there are different ways to go about it), the key thing is leadership willing to see it through. I think that is the biggest knock on Colangelo and the reason for his failure in Toronto. Like many people, he put himself ahead of the organization. He needed results sooner than later after 2012 season. It was telling when he said in a press conference that Casey won too many games in '11-12. I think he had the vision but when things did not go according to plan he forced the issue (Nash, Fields, Lowry). He went all in on the 2011 and 2012 draft and the 2012 draft did not yield the talent he was expecting/hoping.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #219
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Holy crap guys. I'm not electing Waiters to the Hall of Fame. I just said he was one of the best rookies in the league last year, which he was.

    The list of players who have made all rookie teams to go on and flame out is pointless until we actually know what Waiters becomes. I could post a much longer list of players who made the all rookie teams that went on to have awesome careers and make the same argument, no?

    Yes, he shot 41.2% last season from the floor. Lowry and Ross both shot lower percentages. Rudy Gay was only fractions higher as a vet making $18 million. You both seem to be huge fans of all three of those guys ironically. The reality is that Waiters is a gunner and will never shoot at a crazy high rate. That doesn't make him a scrub. He's a high-ceiling guy making relative peanuts that has true value in this league, whether it's on the Cavs roster or in trade talks.

    And beyond all of that, the reason I envy the Cavs situation goes WAY beyond what I think Waiter's future holds
    Excuse me? Now I know you're just being a pain, because I was always against acquiring GAy, have consistently said I'm not sold as Lowry as a PG...and well I like things about Ross' game. I am a fan, but only in the sense that he's a cheap player with promising 2-way ability...so I'd rather not trade him unless it's to help bring in a pretty big asset (certainly not going to include him in a deal, for example, just to get rid of Bargs, which has been suggested).

    All I was saying is that using stats and the all-rookie team as gauges are basically bullcrap. Rookies are all about situations. If I had to pick my top 5 rookies last year it would be Lillard, Beal, Barnes, Davis and JV (homerism, I could also understand Drummond here)....These 5 guys all showed improvement, or improved consistency at least, as well as contributing to team success to some degree, even if 4 (5 counting Drummond) didn't make the playoffs.

    Again, I was not particularly impressed with Waiters. He seemed very much to be the same player at the end of the season as at the start. I can't say that for the guys I mentioned above. And on top of it, while it's not surprising they didn't make the playoffs....Cleveland's win total in 3 seasons, the last 2 adding multiple high draft picks...19 wins....21 wins...24 wins...Although I'd say that reflects more poorly on Irving than anybody. Again, I'm also not overly impressed with Irving...A PG who so far has not shown good leadership ability, D or getting his teammates involved.

  24. #220
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Excuse me? Now I know you're just being a pain, because I was always against acquiring GAy, have consistently said I'm not sold as Lowry as a PG...and well I like things about Ross' game. I am a fan, but only in the sense that he's a cheap player with promising 2-way ability...so I'd rather not trade him unless it's to help bring in a pretty big asset (certainly not going to include him in a deal, for example, just to get rid of Bargs, which has been suggested).

    All I was saying is that using stats and the all-rookie team as gauges are basically bullcrap. Rookies are all about situations. If I had to pick my top 5 rookies last year it would be Lillard, Beal, Barnes, Davis and JV (homerism, I could also understand Drummond here)....These 5 guys all showed improvement, or improved consistency at least, as well as contributing to team success to some degree, even if 4 (5 counting Drummond) didn't make the playoffs.

    Again, I was not particularly impressed with Waiters. He seemed very much to be the same player at the end of the season as at the start. I can't say that for the guys I mentioned above. And on top of it, while it's not surprising they didn't make the playoffs....Cleveland's win total in 3 seasons, the last 2 adding multiple high draft picks...19 wins....21 wins...24 wins...Although I'd say that reflects more poorly on Irving than anybody. Again, I'm also not overly impressed with Irving...A PG who so far has not shown good leadership ability, D or getting his teammates involved.
    I am truly not trying to be an antagonist and I apologize if it came off that way.

    I just find it funny that one of your main sticking points with Waiters was that he shot 41% as a rookie when there are plenty of key players on the current Raptors roster - one that you seem to think we should move forward with, correct me if I'm wrong - that are either below that mark (Ross, KL) or hovering slightly above it (Gay, DD). There seems to be a disconnect in logic there. I also find it ironic that you are a big fan of Ross and not Waiters - considering Ross falls short of Waiters in practically every single measure last season, and actually had his play decline quite drastically in the back half of the season.

    I can't knock you for liking Beals, Drummond, JV, Lillard or AD over Waiters. I actually would take any of those guys myself. However most of those guys benefitted from having ample opportunities while playing on non-playoff teams too. Beals shot even lower than Waiters last season and Lillard was only marginally higher at 43%. They're rookies. They're all still learning. Waiters included.
    Last edited by Fully; Sat May 25th, 2013 at 04:22 PM.

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