View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
Page 4 of 47 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 14 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 932

Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    To me it just seems a bit odd to be browsing a Raptors forum with 8 posts under your belt and telling people who are having an intelligent discussion that they're wasting their time.

    Anyway, that's as far as I'm willing to judge another person.

    Many of the teams listed there were built, not necessarily with the drafted players, but by trading draft picks. Miami, for example, would never have been able to clear out their cap to acquire Bosh and Wade if not for having draft picks to trade for expiring contracts. Boston Celtics Big 3 wouldn't exist if not for the 5th overall pick tanked for in 2006. I don't really have time to look up the others, but that covers a good chunk of the last 5 championships.

    Random side note: I had a random thought while watching the Heat tonight. What if Chris Bosh wanted the team to trade Bargnani all along? What if him learning to shoot 3s was his way of saying "Hey guys, I can shoot 3s now. But I'm not super great and blocking shots and defending, so trade that guy for one who can!"? Because he was at least worth something in those days.

    Matt, the one deal that I think might work is the Millsap one. Utah is literally a DeRozan-type away from being a perennial playoff team again. They already have Favors waiting in the wings, who may not have the motor but certainly has way more talent than Millsap. Thing for me is that if Colangelo is retained, I can't see him trading DeRozan. He's already on thin ice (even if extended) and the average fan doesn't really understand. I think most people would be mad if DeRozan were traded.
    I think the bigger roadblock with Colangelo trading DD would be that he's loyal (to a fault) to "his" players, not necessarily his fear of how the fans would perceive it. That would definitely be a trade that addresses the starting PF problem, however I fear it would open up a similar looking hole at the SG spot.

  2. Like mcHAPPY, ebrian liked this post
  3. #62
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    If Colangelo gets fired and you are still watching Leafs play off hockey, it doesn't affect the Leafs in any way.

    Not all fans are the same though. They think differently. I wish I could agree with the last sentence in your post but I can't 'cause it's not true.
    They might think differently but their alternative options are limited. It's not like the GM hiring process is open to the public.

    There really isn't anything else for a third party to do besides carry on with their life. Unless you're talking about the few who keep hitting F5 on Twitter, RealGM WireTap or Hoopshype Rumor's hoping for some new developments. I don't think people like that were watching the Leafs games in the first place. If you were already watching the Leafs playoffs and they had held on in last 8 minutes of that game, it's more likely you're watching the next round than stalking Tim Leiweke.

    Anyway, I don't care deeply about this so I'll stop now. I think the real truth to this is that if Leafs Playoffs was a legitimate reason to delaying a decision on Colangelo's fate, it probably had more to do with the fact that if he got fired while the Leafs were still in the Stanley Cup hunt, it wouldn't get enough media attention. You'd be watching Sportsnet and they'd have their usual 28 minutes of hockey analysis, and at the end the host would say "In other news, Tiger Woods won and Bryan Colangelo just got fired. Let's show some of Tiger's highlights."
    Last edited by ebrian; Thu May 16th, 2013 at 09:18 AM.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  4. #63
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    To me it just seems a bit odd to be browsing a Raptors forum with 8 posts under your belt and telling people who are having an intelligent discussion that they're wasting their time.

    Anyway, that's as far as I'm willing to judge another person.

    Many of the teams listed there were built, not necessarily with the drafted players, but by trading draft picks. Miami, for example, would never have been able to clear out their cap to acquire Bosh and Wade if not for having draft picks to trade for expiring contracts. Boston Celtics Big 3 wouldn't exist if not for the 5th overall pick tanked for in 2006. I don't really have time to look up the others, but that covers a good chunk of the last 5 championships.

    Random side note: I had a random thought while watching the Heat tonight. What if Chris Bosh wanted the team to trade Bargnani all along? What if him learning to shoot 3s was his way of saying "Hey guys, I can shoot 3s now. But I'm not super great and blocking shots and defending, so trade that guy for one who can!"? Because he was at least worth something in those days.

    Matt, the one deal that I think might work is the Millsap one. Utah is literally a DeRozan-type away from being a perennial playoff team again. They already have Favors waiting in the wings, who may not have the motor but certainly has way more talent than Millsap. Thing for me is that if Colangelo is retained, I can't see him trading DeRozan. He's already on thin ice (even if extended) and the average fan doesn't really understand. I think most people would be mad if DeRozan were traded.
    I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

    Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.

  5. #64
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

    Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.
    I don't think a gaping hole would be produced at SG in that scenario, since the combination of Fields & Ross would be more than capable of replacing DeRozan. A fourth wing could easily be signed with the MLE (ie: Dunleavy would be a great addition to a wing rotation of Gay, Fields and Ross).

    Plus, a DeRozan-Millsap type deal would address the biggest need, which is PF depth. Acy is no more than a 3rd PF hustle guy at this point, who shouldn't be relied upon for big minutes. Acquiring Millsap would not only improve the starting lineup, but by bumping Johnson to the backup PF / 3rd big role, the 2nd unit would also be greatly improved.

    As for Bargnani, he may be the top trade priority, but he's far from being the top (as far as value goes) trade chip. I seriously doubt he'd return near the same quality player that a guy like DeRozan would (ie: Millsap). If Bargnani could return good value, in terms of talent, picks and salary, he would've already been traded.

  6. #65
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,957
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

    Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.
    Some (myself included) would argue that a "gaping hole" exists at SG even if we keep DeRozan....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #66
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,272
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

    Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.
    I found it strange that you said you and I go back and forth all the time when I believe we only had one interaction prior and you had just 7 posts. I don't consider that going back and forth all the time and there was never an intent to discredit you or your opinions based on the number of posts here at RR.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Exactly. Here are the scenarios:

    Keeping DeRozan -
    - starting SG begins his $38M/4year contract and is lacking the distance shooting and shot creation abilities needed at SG
    - $18M devoted to the position next year, where only half of that is getting major minutes and other half rots on bench
    - Amir Johnson as a starting PF is okay but not great
    - puts pressure on JV

    Trading DeRozan -
    - $9M towards two players who should adequately fill what is needed at SG
    - a starting PF that moves Amir to the bench where he's likely to excel/dominate
    - takes significant pressure off JV

    I'd rather have Fields/Ross try to fill the SG hole than Amir continuing to fill the PF hole.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  9. #68
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    If DeRozan is traded I would rather have Ross be thrown into the fire as the starting SG hes the long term answer not Fields when Fields contract expires I dont think Raps are going to extend especially if hes playing like how he is. DeRozan becoming the starter helped him a lot I think it would be the same deal with Ross.

    Lowry/?/Telfair
    Ross/Fields
    Gay/?/Acy
    ?/Amir/Acy
    JV/?/Gray

    realistically though DeRozan will still be here, the wing tandem of him alongside Gay will be given a run and the trade doesnt need to happen if they can make a couple of threes a game. The organization will be looking to shed Fields Bargs Klieza to free up some cash and give the bench wing primarily to Ross, because I assume either deMar or Gay will be soaking up a good 37 mins a game (likely DeMar)

  10. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Exactly. Here are the scenarios:

    Keeping DeRozan -
    - starting SG begins his $38M/4year contract and is lacking the distance shooting and shot creation abilities needed at SG
    - $18M devoted to the position next year, where only half of that is getting major minutes and other half rots on bench
    - Amir Johnson as a starting PF is okay but not great
    - puts pressure on JV

    Trading DeRozan -
    - $9M towards two players who should adequately fill what is needed at SG
    - a starting PF that moves Amir to the bench where he's likely to excel/dominate
    - takes significant pressure off JV

    I'd rather have Fields/Ross try to fill the SG hole than Amir continuing to fill the PF hole.
    Are you nuts? Fields and Ross are barely adequate for the bench SG spot right now, no fucking way they adequately fill the starting and backup SG spot. Amir adequately fills the starting PF spot a hell of a lot better than Ross/Fields do at SG.

    Here's some stats to highlight the disparity between DD and Fields/Ross. Now these comparisons work head to head since DD played 37 minutes per game, and the Fields/Ross combo also played 37 minutes per game (20 Fields, 17 Ross).

    TS%:
    DD .523
    LF .487
    TR .491

    So we immediately lose a bunch of offensive efficiency. How about getting to the line, which is even more important since it puts the other team in foul trouble and gets the Raps into the bonus?

    FTM/FTA and FT%
    DD 4.3/5.2 at .831
    LF 0.7/1.0 at .642
    TR 0.4/0.6 at .714
    LF/TR combo 1.1/1.6 at .688

    So we get 3.6 less FTA per game and 3.2 less made per game. This "adequate" combo of yours is not holding up so well.

    Now lets check ORtg, in case I'm missing something.
    DD 105
    LF 101
    TR 98

    Once again, DD is a big step better than his replacements, and TR has been more or less atrocious on offense (big dunks and not much else) so far. He's young and he'll get there, but it's most likely not going to be this coming season.

    How about the 3 ball. That's our biggest gripe against DD's offensive game at the moment. Will the backups be able to improve our 3 point shooting?

    3PTA/3PTM and 3PT%:
    DD 0.4/1.5 at .283
    LF 0.0/0.3 at .143
    TR 0.9/2.7 at .332
    LF/TR combo 0.9/3.0 at 0.3

    Maybe you forgot how bad Fields shooting has been, but it's embarassing. Ross has a decent stroke, but he shoots a ton of them and is still hitting them at a low percentage. At least DD recognized it's a weak part of his game and didn't huck up a ton of bad 3's. The LF/TR combo is pretty close to the same as DD but just shooting a few more 3's. DD has already said that the 3 will be his main focus this offseason, and he has been getting better each year at it, so a reasonable projection would be for him to meet or exceed the LF/TR combo, so once again, no improvement from the "adequate" backups, but at least they don't hurt us here, they're just poor at shooting 3's like DD is.

    Offensive is also facilitating for others, so lets check out assists.

    Ast per game:
    DD 2.5
    LF 1.2
    TR 0.7
    LF/TR combo 1.9

    Nope, we actually get less assists from our two "adequate" backups in the same amount of minutes. Once again the offense suffers.

    How about rebounds, they are important on both ends of the floor. Maybe the backups blow DD away in grabbing the ball.

    Rbds per game:
    DD 3.9
    LF 4.1
    TR 2.0
    LF/TR combo 6.1

    Finally, something the backups improve on over DD. It's a nice jump up, but not too big. An extra 2 boards a game won't offset how much worse they make the offense compared to DD.

    How about defense? Maybe the backups play much better defense than DD so their offensive shortcomings won't matter so much.

    DRtg
    DD 110
    LF 108
    TR 109

    A very slight improvement on D, but hardly anything to write home about. Basically they are all inadequate defenders at this point. So the backups aren't going to make up for their offensive shortcomings with vastly improved D since they are more or less just as bad as DD on that end of the floor.

    Maybe we can improve the PF position so much that it offsets how much worse we've made the SG position by trading away DD? Problem is, Amir is actually way more effective as a starter than off the bench. Just check out his game log. It seems like when Amir comes off the bench, he has much more of a tendency to foul. Maybe because he knows he's not being counted on for 30+ minutes so he's more aggressive. Either way, it leads to decreased output so I'm not seeing Amir off the bench offsetting the loss of DD in the starting lineup. When Amir started he had some monster games and I'd like to see a full season of him and JV starting. Then we could focus on bringing in someone like Carl Landry to bolster the bench PF spot, as opposed to trading away DD for a roughyl lateral move in Milsap (he's really not much better than Amir, if at all. Amir has a better Ortg, and rebounds better, with the same DRtg).


    Now, I'm not saying we can't trade DD. Just that if we do, we need to be bringing in an upgrade at SG (or at least a comparable player with a different skillset). The current backups, who you claim are "adeqaute", aren't adequate at all. As for PF, outside of one of the star PF's, it'd be tough to bring in someone that is a significant upgrade over Amir. So, like I said above, probably more pragmatic to focus on bringing in a good backup PF to solidify that position. Amir as a starter at PF may not be the long term solution, but it's not so easy to find guys who are actually better than him at starting PF.

  11. Like Fully, Joey liked this post
  12. #70
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't think a gaping hole would be produced at SG in that scenario, since the combination of Fields & Ross would be more than capable of replacing DeRozan. A fourth wing could easily be signed with the MLE (ie: Dunleavy would be a great addition to a wing rotation of Gay, Fields and Ross).

    Plus, a DeRozan-Millsap type deal would address the biggest need, which is PF depth. Acy is no more than a 3rd PF hustle guy at this point, who shouldn't be relied upon for big minutes. Acquiring Millsap would not only improve the starting lineup, but by bumping Johnson to the backup PF / 3rd big role, the 2nd unit would also be greatly improved.

    As for Bargnani, he may be the top trade priority, but he's far from being the top (as far as value goes) trade chip. I seriously doubt he'd return near the same quality player that a guy like DeRozan would (ie: Millsap). If Bargnani could return good value, in terms of talent, picks and salary, he would've already been traded.
    I think at this point we are putting to much stock into a rookie to address this area. Fields is a smart player but I don't know if his numbers are on par with Derozan. I understand the trade value for Bargani may be a little underwhelming right now but if using him as a trade chip you would hope he can net you a pg or pf in return. If the Boozer deal is still on the table I would maybe do that. But I would love to see David West in a Raptors uni.

  13. #71
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Are you nuts? Fields and Ross are barely adequate for the bench SG spot right now, no fucking way they adequately fill the starting and backup SG spot. Amir adequately fills the starting PF spot a hell of a lot better than Ross/Fields do at SG.

    Here's some stats to highlight the disparity between DD and Fields/Ross. Now these comparisons work head to head since DD played 37 minutes per game, and the Fields/Ross combo also played 37 minutes per game (20 Fields, 17 Ross).

    TS%:
    DD .523
    LF .487
    TR .491

    So we immediately lose a bunch of offensive efficiency. How about getting to the line, which is even more important since it puts the other team in foul trouble and gets the Raps into the bonus?

    FTM/FTA and FT%
    DD 4.3/5.2 at .831
    LF 0.7/1.0 at .642
    TR 0.4/0.6 at .714
    LF/TR combo 1.1/1.6 at .688

    So we get 3.6 less FTA per game and 3.2 less made per game. This "adequate" combo of yours is not holding up so well.

    Now lets check ORtg, in case I'm missing something.
    DD 105
    LF 101
    TR 98

    Once again, DD is a big step better than his replacements, and TR has been more or less atrocious on offense (big dunks and not much else) so far. He's young and he'll get there, but it's most likely not going to be this coming season.

    How about the 3 ball. That's our biggest gripe against DD's offensive game at the moment. Will the backups be able to improve our 3 point shooting?

    3PTA/3PTM and 3PT%:
    DD 0.4/1.5 at .283
    LF 0.0/0.3 at .143
    TR 0.9/2.7 at .332
    LF/TR combo 0.9/3.0 at 0.3

    Maybe you forgot how bad Fields shooting has been, but it's embarassing. Ross has a decent stroke, but he shoots a ton of them and is still hitting them at a low percentage. At least DD recognized it's a weak part of his game and didn't huck up a ton of bad 3's. The LF/TR combo is pretty close to the same as DD but just shooting a few more 3's. DD has already said that the 3 will be his main focus this offseason, and he has been getting better each year at it, so a reasonable projection would be for him to meet or exceed the LF/TR combo, so once again, no improvement from the "adequate" backups, but at least they don't hurt us here, they're just poor at shooting 3's like DD is.

    Offensive is also facilitating for others, so lets check out assists.

    Ast per game:
    DD 2.5
    LF 1.2
    TR 0.7
    LF/TR combo 1.9

    Nope, we actually get less assists from our two "adequate" backups in the same amount of minutes. Once again the offense suffers.

    How about rebounds, they are important on both ends of the floor. Maybe the backups blow DD away in grabbing the ball.

    Rbds per game:
    DD 3.9
    LF 4.1
    TR 2.0
    LF/TR combo 6.1

    Finally, something the backups improve on over DD. It's a nice jump up, but not too big. An extra 2 boards a game won't offset how much worse they make the offense compared to DD.

    How about defense? Maybe the backups play much better defense than DD so their offensive shortcomings won't matter so much.

    DRtg
    DD 110
    LF 108
    TR 109

    A very slight improvement on D, but hardly anything to write home about. Basically they are all inadequate defenders at this point. So the backups aren't going to make up for their offensive shortcomings with vastly improved D since they are more or less just as bad as DD on that end of the floor.

    Maybe we can improve the PF position so much that it offsets how much worse we've made the SG position by trading away DD? Problem is, Amir is actually way more effective as a starter than off the bench. Just check out his game log. It seems like when Amir comes off the bench, he has much more of a tendency to foul. Maybe because he knows he's not being counted on for 30+ minutes so he's more aggressive. Either way, it leads to decreased output so I'm not seeing Amir off the bench offsetting the loss of DD in the starting lineup. When Amir started he had some monster games and I'd like to see a full season of him and JV starting. Then we could focus on bringing in someone like Carl Landry to bolster the bench PF spot, as opposed to trading away DD for a roughyl lateral move in Milsap (he's really not much better than Amir, if at all. Amir has a better Ortg, and rebounds better, with the same DRtg).


    Now, I'm not saying we can't trade DD. Just that if we do, we need to be bringing in an upgrade at SG (or at least a comparable player with a different skillset). The current backups, who you claim are "adeqaute", aren't adequate at all. As for PF, outside of one of the star PF's, it'd be tough to bring in someone that is a significant upgrade over Amir. So, like I said above, probably more pragmatic to focus on bringing in a good backup PF to solidify that position. Amir as a starter at PF may not be the long term solution, but it's not so easy to find guys who are actually better than him at starting PF.
    +1

    I agree with what is said here. Demar is not often injured, he plays hard and it would be hard to replace him. Especially with with the likes of Fields and a unproven Ross.

  14. #72
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It's a good post Primer and I can't argue with those numbers, but those numbers are for what would have happened if we had thrust a rookie and an injured player into DeRozan's spot this past season.

    Sorry to just end it there, I know you put a lot of work into your post.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  15. #73
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,272
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Are you nuts? Fields and Ross are barely adequate for the bench SG spot right now, no fucking way they adequately fill the starting and backup SG spot. Amir adequately fills the starting PF spot a hell of a lot better than Ross/Fields do at SG.

    Here's some stats to highlight the disparity between DD and Fields/Ross. Now these comparisons work head to head since DD played 37 minutes per game, and the Fields/Ross combo also played 37 minutes per game (20 Fields, 17 Ross).

    TS%:
    DD .523
    LF .487
    TR .491

    So we immediately lose a bunch of offensive efficiency. How about getting to the line, which is even more important since it puts the other team in foul trouble and gets the Raps into the bonus?

    FTM/FTA and FT%
    DD 4.3/5.2 at .831
    LF 0.7/1.0 at .642
    TR 0.4/0.6 at .714
    LF/TR combo 1.1/1.6 at .688

    So we get 3.6 less FTA per game and 3.2 less made per game. This "adequate" combo of yours is not holding up so well.

    Now lets check ORtg, in case I'm missing something.
    DD 105
    LF 101
    TR 98

    Once again, DD is a big step better than his replacements, and TR has been more or less atrocious on offense (big dunks and not much else) so far. He's young and he'll get there, but it's most likely not going to be this coming season.

    How about the 3 ball. That's our biggest gripe against DD's offensive game at the moment. Will the backups be able to improve our 3 point shooting?

    3PTA/3PTM and 3PT%:
    DD 0.4/1.5 at .283
    LF 0.0/0.3 at .143
    TR 0.9/2.7 at .332
    LF/TR combo 0.9/3.0 at 0.3

    Maybe you forgot how bad Fields shooting has been, but it's embarassing. Ross has a decent stroke, but he shoots a ton of them and is still hitting them at a low percentage. At least DD recognized it's a weak part of his game and didn't huck up a ton of bad 3's. The LF/TR combo is pretty close to the same as DD but just shooting a few more 3's. DD has already said that the 3 will be his main focus this offseason, and he has been getting better each year at it, so a reasonable projection would be for him to meet or exceed the LF/TR combo, so once again, no improvement from the "adequate" backups, but at least they don't hurt us here, they're just poor at shooting 3's like DD is.

    Offensive is also facilitating for others, so lets check out assists.

    Ast per game:
    DD 2.5
    LF 1.2
    TR 0.7
    LF/TR combo 1.9

    Nope, we actually get less assists from our two "adequate" backups in the same amount of minutes. Once again the offense suffers.

    How about rebounds, they are important on both ends of the floor. Maybe the backups blow DD away in grabbing the ball.

    Rbds per game:
    DD 3.9
    LF 4.1
    TR 2.0
    LF/TR combo 6.1

    Finally, something the backups improve on over DD. It's a nice jump up, but not too big. An extra 2 boards a game won't offset how much worse they make the offense compared to DD.

    How about defense? Maybe the backups play much better defense than DD so their offensive shortcomings won't matter so much.

    DRtg
    DD 110
    LF 108
    TR 109

    A very slight improvement on D, but hardly anything to write home about. Basically they are all inadequate defenders at this point. So the backups aren't going to make up for their offensive shortcomings with vastly improved D since they are more or less just as bad as DD on that end of the floor.

    Maybe we can improve the PF position so much that it offsets how much worse we've made the SG position by trading away DD? Problem is, Amir is actually way more effective as a starter than off the bench. Just check out his game log. It seems like when Amir comes off the bench, he has much more of a tendency to foul. Maybe because he knows he's not being counted on for 30+ minutes so he's more aggressive. Either way, it leads to decreased output so I'm not seeing Amir off the bench offsetting the loss of DD in the starting lineup. When Amir started he had some monster games and I'd like to see a full season of him and JV starting. Then we could focus on bringing in someone like Carl Landry to bolster the bench PF spot, as opposed to trading away DD for a roughyl lateral move in Milsap (he's really not much better than Amir, if at all. Amir has a better Ortg, and rebounds better, with the same DRtg).


    Now, I'm not saying we can't trade DD. Just that if we do, we need to be bringing in an upgrade at SG (or at least a comparable player with a different skillset). The current backups, who you claim are "adeqaute", aren't adequate at all. As for PF, outside of one of the star PF's, it'd be tough to bring in someone that is a significant upgrade over Amir. So, like I said above, probably more pragmatic to focus on bringing in a good backup PF to solidify that position. Amir as a starter at PF may not be the long term solution, but it's not so easy to find guys who are actually better than him at starting PF.
    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    It's a good post Primer and I can't argue with those numbers, but those numbers are for what would have happened if we had thrust a rookie and an injured player into DeRozan's spot this past season.

    Sorry to just end it there, I know you put a lot of work into your post.
    It was a really good post.

    I would counter with a few points:

    1) Fields has shown an ability to hit the three. He had an undiagnosed nerve injury that turned his hand in to a claw. He made strides by the end of the season but obviously his shot was still shaky at best. After dealing with an injury for likely over a year, coming back in season and expecting him to return to his previous ways in 3-4 months is a bit unrealistic. I have faith that continuing rehab with an off season of getting his form correct will lead to improved results. If Ed Davis could fix his free throws, Fields can return to form on shot. And even if he can't get back to 38-39%, I think a return to low 30's is certainly possible.

    2) DeRozan's defensive rating comes has always come with an asterisk for me. When have you ever seen DeRozan guard the other team's best perimeter player? Whenever DD is on the court AA, LF, TR, or RG will all guard the better perimeter defender. I could be wrong his but that is my perception and recollection.

    3) You had a nice array of stats but one left out is win shares.

    Wins per 48:
    Fields: .154
    DeRozan: .054
    Ross: -0.001

    Points over Par per48:
    Fields: 1.7
    DeRozan: -1.4
    Ross: -3.1

    Wins*:
    Fields: 3.3
    DeRozan: 3.4
    Ross: -0.0

    *Fields produced nearly identical wins in 1/3 the minutes.

    4) The needs of Toronto. DeRozan brings scoring and little else. With Gay, an emerging JV, a starting PF who can give you 16 per game (using the assumption DD returns a PF), and Lowry allowed to play more like his Rocket days than his Raptor days, you have a lot of scoring. I question the redundancy of DD and Gay in the manner they have been used. Putting Gay in the post more and taking more threes certainly lessens the redundancy.

    5) DD's ineffectiveness without the ball. If DD does not have the ball or is not being spoon fed for a long jumper, what does he do for you? A guy like Fields can be extremely active and productive without the basketball.

    6) Ross was a rookie. I expect a step up from him. I also think more punch and kick or inside/out with an extra pass is his style than curling off screens for 3 point shots. My recollection has him much more effective catching and shooting with his feet already set. On defense, as a rookie he is already better than DD and given more opportunity and experience I only see the difference widening.

    Again, nice post but I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk as you make it out to be.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #74
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It was a really good post.

    I would counter with a few points:

    1) Fields has shown an ability to hit the three. He had an undiagnosed nerve injury that turned his hand in to a claw. He made strides by the end of the season but obviously his shot was still shaky at best. After dealing with an injury for likely over a year, coming back in season and expecting him to return to his previous ways in 3-4 months is a bit unrealistic. I have faith that continuing rehab with an off season of getting his form correct will lead to improved results. If Ed Davis could fix his free throws, Fields can return to form on shot. And even if he can't get back to 38-39%, I think a return to low 30's is certainly possible.

    2) DeRozan's defensive rating comes has always come with an asterisk for me. When have you ever seen DeRozan guard the other team's best perimeter player? Whenever DD is on the court AA, LF, TR, or RG will all guard the better perimeter defender. I could be wrong his but that is my perception and recollection.

    3) You had a nice array of stats but one left out is win shares.

    Wins per 48:
    Fields: .154
    DeRozan: .054
    Ross: -0.001

    Points over Par per48:
    Fields: 1.7
    DeRozan: -1.4
    Ross: -3.1

    Wins*:
    Fields: 3.3
    DeRozan: 3.4
    Ross: -0.0

    *Fields produced nearly identical wins in 1/3 the minutes.

    4) The needs of Toronto. DeRozan brings scoring and little else. With Gay, an emerging JV, a starting PF who can give you 16 per game (using the assumption DD returns a PF), and Lowry allowed to play more like his Rocket days than his Raptor days, you have a lot of scoring. I question the redundancy of DD and Gay in the manner they have been used. Putting Gay in the post more and taking more threes certainly lessens the redundancy.

    5) DD's ineffectiveness without the ball. If DD does not have the ball or is not being spoon fed for a long jumper, what does he do for you? A guy like Fields can be extremely active and productive without the basketball.

    6) Ross was a rookie. I expect a step up from him. I also think more punch and kick or inside/out with an extra pass is his style than curling off screens for 3 point shots. My recollection has him much more effective catching and shooting with his feet already set. On defense, as a rookie he is already better than DD and given more opportunity and experience I only see the difference widening.

    Again, nice post but I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk as you make it out to be.
    Nice counters, this is the kind of discussion I'm looking for. I'll address your points one by one.

    1.) I'd put a lot more faith in DD getting his 3pt shots above 30% than Fields being able to do so. DD has improved his 3pt shooting year over year (past 3 years .096, .261, .283). Fields has done the opposite (past 3 years .393, .256, .143). I hear you on the nerve damage thing and I'd be ecstatic if he could get his 3pt% back to respectable, but the fact is he has regressed significantly year over year while DD has improved, and is currently a much better 3pt shooter. Way too many "if's" come along with fields. "If" Fields is still as bad a 3pt shooter as he was this year, then Raptors fans will be calling for the head of the GM who traded away DD to start Fields. I'm way way more comfortable with DD in there. You can't have a SG who other teams don't need to guard, it kills the offense.

    2.) I'm fine with the asterisks, as my main point isn't that DD is a good defender, it's that Fields and Ross aren't better defenders than DD. They'd need to be significantly better defenders than DD to offset how much significantly worse on offense they are.

    3.) You don't have the correct stats in there for WS/48 (win shares per 48). From basketball reference.
    WS/48:
    DD .075
    LF .052
    TR .034

    DD, although producing a pretty bad WS/48, is still significantly better than both Fields and Ross. Fields has never had a WS/48 of better than 0.1 (his first year with Knicks), and its has gone down every year, whereas DD made a pretty big improvement from 2 years ago to last year.

    Also, you have the incorrect win shares. Again from basketball reference.

    WS:
    DD 4.7
    LF 1.1
    TR 0.9

    Once again, DD comes in with a huge advantage in WS over Fields/Ross. Not sure where you got your stats, or if you meant something other than win shares, but this is the data from basketball reference (best stat site in my opinion).

    4.) You think DD is redundant in the current offense, but you don't say how Fields or Ross are a better fit, you just poo poo on DD. You need to explain how the replacement of Fields/Ross is better. In my opinion, Fields can't shoot his way out of a paper bag and Ross needs another year or two of development. Right now DD is a much better fit because his man can't slack off him or he will be punished. You can leave Fields wide open anywhere except under the basket and pretty much be fine. On a hot night, DD can demand double teams. Fields has probably only ever commanded a double team in one of his dreams, he'll never be that player.

    5.) I think Raps fans have created this illusion that Fields moves fantastically without the ball because we couldn't think of any other positive things to describe his play. He probably moves a bit better than DD, but it hardly produces anything, especially since he can't hit any shots unless he's right under the basket. Fields is most effective cutting under the basket looking for layups. DD can do so much more than Fields he doesn't need to just run cuts under the basket all the time like Fields does. We also feel comfortable giving DD the ball near the 3pt line and let him drive or pull up for a jumper. Fields can't do either of those things effectively.

    6.) I also expect a big step up from Ross. I expect him to step into the backup SG role that Fields/AA were manning last year. He's clearly not ready to start, but he should be getting around 25 minutes a game if he progresses as expected. I'm not seeing his defense being much better than DD's. He runs around like a freaking loose cannon out there getting stupid fouls. He certainly has the potential to be a better defender than DD, but lets wait until we see it before we trade DD for a PF than we don't really need.

    I think it's still a slam dunk, but I'm open to some more counters.

    Follow up question, explain to me how Millsap is such an upgrade over Amir that it's worth trading DD for? I'm assuming that's who you're targeting as the PF to trade DD for. In my opinion, we'd get a bit more offense from Millsap at the expense of defense and rebounding. It would just force Amir to play a bunch more center in order to get minutes, where he is undersized and tends to get into foul trouble.
    Last edited by Primer; Thu May 16th, 2013 at 06:27 PM.

  17. Like Joey liked this post
  18. #75
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    [QUOTE=Primer;208195]I think it's still a slam dunk, but I'm open to some more counters./QUOTE]

    I guess if we're going to use basketball-reference, it probably makes sense to include all the stats you left out (Conveniently? Not that I blame you, since he's at the bottom for nearly all of them.) in the first post.

    eFG%
    TR: 0.478
    LF: 0.462
    DD: 0.459

    ORB%
    LF: 6.7
    TR: 3.3
    DD: 1.9

    DRB%
    LF: 17.4
    DD: 10.9
    TR: 10.6

    STL%
    TR: 1.8
    LF: 1.6
    DD: 1.3

    BLK%
    TR: 0.9
    LF: 0.6
    DD: 0.6

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Follow up question, explain to me how Millsap is such an upgrade over Amir that it's worth trading DD for? I'm assuming that's who you're targeting as the PF to trade DD for. In my opinion, we'd get a bit more offense from Millsap at the expense of defense and rebounding. It would just force Amir to play a bunch more center in order to get minutes, where he is undersized and tends to get into foul trouble.
    Is this a serious question? Are you actually comparing one season of Amir Johnson (out of 8 to choose from) with 7 seasons of Paul Millsap? I assume this is a joke, but this is 38 starts compared to 265. I think Amir had a wonderful season where there was literally no one else besides a rookie taking rebounds from him. Comparing that with Millsap who has played alongside Al Jefferson for the past 3 years and Carlos Boozer before that. You've got to be kidding.
    Last edited by ebrian; Thu May 16th, 2013 at 07:37 PM.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  19. #76
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,558
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Oh jeez people. Whether DeMar has better stats or worse stats than Ross doesn't matter. It only takes common sense to know that Ross is nowhere near capable of starting, and that Ross will always be on the bench as long as Casey and/or DeMar is here. Why bicker about what stats they produce? It all seems so confusing to me.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  20. #77
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,272
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Nice counters, this is the kind of discussion I'm looking for. I'll address your points one by one.

    1.) I'd put a lot more faith in DD getting his 3pt shots above 30% than Fields being able to do so. DD has improved his 3pt shooting year over year (past 3 years .096, .261, .283). Fields has done the opposite (past 3 years .393, .256, .143). I hear you on the nerve damage thing and I'd be ecstatic if he could get his 3pt% back to respectable, but the fact is he has regressed significantly year over year while DD has improved, and is currently a much better 3pt shooter. Way too many "if's" come along with fields. "If" Fields is still as bad a 3pt shooter as he was this year, then Raptors fans will be calling for the head of the GM who traded away DD to start Fields. I'm way way more comfortable with DD in there. You can't have a SG who other teams don't need to guard, it kills the offense.

    2.) I'm fine with the asterisks, as my main point isn't that DD is a good defender, it's that Fields and Ross aren't better defenders than DD. They'd need to be significantly better defenders than DD to offset how much significantly worse on offense they are.

    3.) You don't have the correct stats in there for WS/48 (win shares per 48). From basketball reference.
    WS/48:
    DD .075
    LF .052
    TR .034

    DD, although producing a pretty bad WS/48, is still significantly better than both Fields and Ross. Fields has never had a WS/48 of better than 0.1 (his first year with Knicks), and its has gone down every year, whereas DD made a pretty big improvement from 2 years ago to last year.

    Also, you have the incorrect win shares. Again from basketball reference.

    WS:
    DD 4.7
    LF 1.1
    TR 0.9

    Once again, DD comes in with a huge advantage in WS over Fields/Ross. Not sure where you got your stats, or if you meant something other than win shares, but this is the data from basketball reference (best stat site in my opinion).

    4.) You think DD is redundant in the current offense, but you don't say how Fields or Ross are a better fit, you just poo poo on DD. You need to explain how the replacement of Fields/Ross is better. In my opinion, Fields can't shoot his way out of a paper bag and Ross needs another year or two of development. Right now DD is a much better fit because his man can't slack off him or he will be punished. You can leave Fields wide open anywhere except under the basket and pretty much be fine. On a hot night, DD can demand double teams. Fields has probably only ever commanded a double team in one of his dreams, he'll never be that player.

    5.) I think Raps fans have created this illusion that Fields moves fantastically without the ball because we couldn't think of any other positive things to describe his play. He probably moves a bit better than DD, but it hardly produces anything, especially since he can't hit any shots unless he's right under the basket. Fields is most effective cutting under the basket looking for layups. DD can do so much more than Fields he doesn't need to just run cuts under the basket all the time like Fields does. We also feel comfortable giving DD the ball near the 3pt line and let him drive or pull up for a jumper. Fields can't do either of those things effectively.

    6.) I also expect a big step up from Ross. I expect him to step into the backup SG role that Fields/AA were manning last year. He's clearly not ready to start, but he should be getting around 25 minutes a game if he progresses as expected. I'm not seeing his defense being much better than DD's. He runs around like a freaking loose cannon out there getting stupid fouls. He certainly has the potential to be a better defender than DD, but lets wait until we see it before we trade DD for a PF than we don't really need.

    I think it's still a slam dunk, but I'm open to some more counters.

    Follow up question, explain to me how Millsap is such an upgrade over Amir that it's worth trading DD for? I'm assuming that's who you're targeting as the PF to trade DD for. In my opinion, we'd get a bit more offense from Millsap at the expense of defense and rebounding. It would just force Amir to play a bunch more center in order to get minutes, where he is undersized and tends to get into foul trouble.


    1) Take away DD's #AprilFoolsGold performance and how is his 3pt shooting? You clearly glossed over the nerve injury with Fields. He didn't lose the skills he lost the physical ability. When the physical ability returns I expect the skill to as well. From a confidence perspective this has to be really important - there is a legit reason why he was unable to hit shots.

    2) Ross and Fields are better defenders. There is more than one skill needed in basketball. Putting the ball in the hoops is a great skill but the Raptors have others who can do it.

    3) Stats are from theNBAGeek.com

    4) Ross and Fields are better fits because they can contribute and be threats without the basketball, DeRozan cannot or has not shown the ability. The Raptors already have 2 ball dominant players in Gay and Lowry. They also play much better defense. All your argument is based on offense. There are two sides to the ball.

    5) I think you should watch games and look at game logs when given consistent minutes. Go to stats.NBA.com and look at the break down of shooting percentages of Fields and DD. DD clearly has many more attempts but it is interesting nonetheless and look at prior seasons.

    6) If DD took the ball strong like Ross (i.e. had his athletic ability as well) and shot like Ross, DD would be an All-Star. Not sure how that fits in.


    Check Millsap compared to DD. Amir produces off bench or starting. Amir can play both PF and C with either Millsap or JV. Look at Millsap's PER.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...%93&player_ids[]=318&player_ids[]=334

    Amir's stat splits at C disagree with your statements.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...9/amir-johnson
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #78
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,272
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Oh jeez people. Whether DeMar has better stats or worse stats than Ross doesn't matter. It only takes common sense to know that Ross is nowhere near capable of starting, and that Ross will always be on the bench as long as Casey and/or DeMar is here. Why bicker about what stats they produce? It all seems so confusing to me.
    Who is pickering?

    Personally I'd rather see a healthy Fields start with Ross 3 and D off bench assuming upgrade at starting PF with Amir off bench.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  22. #79
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    1) Take away DD's #AprilFoolsGold performance and how is his 3pt shooting? You clearly glossed over the nerve injury with Fields. He didn't lose the skills he lost the physical ability. When the physical ability returns I expect the skill to as well. From a confidence perspective this has to be really important - there is a legit reason why he was unable to hit shots.

    2) Ross and Fields are better defenders. There is more than one skill needed in basketball. Putting the ball in the hoops is a great skill but the Raptors have others who can do it.

    3) Stats are from theNBAGeek.com

    4) Ross and Fields are better fits because they can contribute and be threats without the basketball, DeRozan cannot or has not shown the ability. The Raptors already have 2 ball dominant players in Gay and Lowry. They also play much better defense. All your argument is based on offense. There are two sides to the ball.

    5) I think you should watch games and look at game logs when given consistent minutes. Go to stats.NBA.com and look at the break down of shooting percentages of Fields and DD. DD clearly has many more attempts but it is interesting nonetheless and look at prior seasons.

    6) If DD took the ball strong like Ross (i.e. had his athletic ability as well) and shot like Ross, DD would be an All-Star. Not sure how that fits in.


    Check Millsap compared to DD. Amir produces off bench or starting. Amir can play both PF and C with either Millsap or JV. Look at Millsap's PER.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...%93&player_ids[]=318&player_ids[]=334

    Amir's stat splits at C disagree with your statements.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits...9/amir-johnson
    Seems like our main sticking point is over Fields, and what he will contribute. You think he's going to get back to his rookie year form, or close to it. I think he'll only be marginally better than last year. If Fields offense doesn't improve significantly, his defense isn't enough to keep him in the starting lineup. In my experience, Fields plays his best defense against SF, not SG, so I like him better of the bench as the backup SF to Gay. Ross comes off the bench as the backup SG and he is given the scoring green light on the second team. Bring in someone like Carl Landry as the backup PF and the bench starts to look decent. I think that would be a much better team than one which sent out DD for Millsap.
    Hopefully Fields blows my socks off and I get egg on my face, but then DD blows up too, so you get egg on your face, but we won't care because the Raps will be a solid playoff team with a bright future.

  23. #80
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I have serious doubts about Fields. For one thing, I hate his contract. And second, when I hear someone saying "If he starts playing like he did back in..." I usually tune them out immediately.

    Let me explain what I meant by adequately --

    I never said we wouldn't miss a beat if we replaced DeRozan with these two guys. And I don't mean addition by subtraction either. By adequately, I mean good enough. With DeRozan's ceiling, I would predict that a combination of Fields/Ross going forward should equal what we need from that position in 2 years. I don't see the point in spending $27M on two guys who do the exact same things. It's the same reason why Indiana should consider moving forward without Danny Granger with the emergence of Paul George. It doesn't mean that the Pacers have no use for Granger, they absolutely could use his help and the his added depth. But it's more that you have an opportunity to re-allocate the money to areas that will strengthen your team overall. I don't follow the Pacers closely enough to tell you what those areas are, but we have plenty of holes to fill.

    The team consisting of: JV, Amir, Gay, DeRozan and Lowry will win you about 38-40 games.

    A team consisting of JV, Starting PF on a good team, Gay, Fields/Ross and Lowry has the potential of winning a lot more.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  24. Like CalgaryRapsFan liked this post
Page 4 of 47 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 14 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •