View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
Page 7 of 47 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 17 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 930

Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MTL
    Posts
    1,368
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Now I feel like I ruined the party lol I'm sorry.

  2. #122
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,285
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    And I realize that because of Landry's injury he's had to bring other things to the table because his shot isn't working for him which he was doing really well like rebounding, steals and basically just being a pretty good hustle guy. But, if his shot doesn't come back and he's going to have to rely on those aspects of his game to help a team which he'll probably be pretty good at why wouldn't he just continue to come off the bench as a terrific role player?

    Demar is going to continue to get better, we've all seen, every season he's come back with some extra added to his game and he's become pretty consistent. He's only going to get stronger and smarter, he's only 23. Toronto should let him develop and not throw his game off by sending him to the bench a year after he sings a 4 year 38 million dollar contract. If he doesn't continue to get better and Fields is the better man then it'll happen but why should the force it if it's so uncertain. It could go horribly wrong and we'd all be on here busting whoever our GM will be who made the decision and asking for him to be fired.
    You seem to be missing the whole point about a more balanced starting lineup or "fit", that several posters have been talking about. I've yet to see anybody on here say that Fields is as good a player as DeRozan, let alone a better player. It's all about building the best overall lineup; putting your 5 best scorers together makes absolutely no sense and would likely wind up being a terrible lineup. There's only one ball - Gay is the #1 scoring option, Lowry is at his best when he's relied upon to score as well as distribute, Valanciunas is an emerging offensive talent and the idea is that Bargnani and/or DeRozan would return a scoring starting PF in trade, so the starting SG doesn't really need to be primarly a scorer.

    DeRozan is an inefficient scorer who does little else to help the team. Fields wouldn't be needed to be anything more than the team's #5 scorer; he'd bring off-ball play, playmaking and rebounding to the offense, while bringing perimeter defense and rebounding to the defense. When it comes to those non-scoring areas, especially the non-statistical intangibles (ie: off ball play and defense), he's far superior to DeRozan - hence better "fit" and balance in an improved starting lineup. Fields is not as good a player as DeRozan, but he brings stuff to the starting lineup that is missing, while DeRozan is made redundant by Gay. If Fields comes back next season with an improved, reliable corner 3pt shot, that's just gravy.

    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    All I'm saying is it would be a fuckin risky and bold move lol trading him this off season or putting him on the bench.
    If you get an equally good or better player at a different position (ie: an improved starting PF, such as Love, Millsap, Gasol, Horford, etc...), where exactly is the risk? Nobody is suggesting trading DeRozan for an inferior player, or just for the sake of dumping him. The whole idea is to trade talent for talent. The Raptors would be trading from a position of strength/depth (the wings, where they'd still have Gay, Fields and Ross) to address a position of weakness (PF, where they really only have Johnson, since Bargnani is as good as gone and Acy is a 3rd PF at best), which is the ideal trade. A 4th wing could be acquired via trade (ie: in a Bargnani deal) or via free agency (ie: MLE), to fill the void in the wing rotation (I personally think Dunleavy would be a great veteran shooter to bring in as a 4th wing). Bold move yes, but hardly risky, as long as the return is an equal talent who happens to play a different position.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon May 20th, 2013 at 02:05 AM.

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    3,885
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Point of the matter is their I'd too much money tied up in the wing position. Someone is going to have to go. I can't see it being DD unless if BC is actually fired. I think Massai would keep DD too since he was apart of drafting him.

  4. #124
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Jurassic Park
    Posts
    2,959
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Fields starting over DeRozan? DeRozan coming off the bench? LOL. Are you people thinking when making these posts?

    Fields BARELY played last season. DeRozan on the other hand averaged 18ppg. So why in the hell would the Raps put DD on the bench? so they can start Fields? why? to create more balance? lol really?

    As for trading DeMar. If the Raptors move him(not gonna happen). Who's gonna start at the 2? Ross? yeah that would definitely make this team a lot better.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  5. Like Rapstor4Life liked this post
  6. #125
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    So people want to replace DD because we need more 3 pt shooting in the starting lineup so they replace him with Fields a guy who can't shoot at all? Sounds about right.
    Last edited by why_you_mad_tho; Mon May 20th, 2013 at 05:24 AM.

  7. #126
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,319
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Wow, the insanity. So much misuse of stats/analytics. Little logic, and continuation of the kind of behavior that has plagued the Raptors. If the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and expecting different results MAYBE the Raptors should do something different. Instead of high player turnover EVERY YEAR a new coach EVERY OTHER YEAR maybe, JUST MAYBE they should grow from within. IF Demar has SO MUCH value, it is illogical to trade him. HERE'S another concept the RAPS have never followed...KEEP THE BEST PLAYERS!!! Bosh is one thing, but that team was only built for him for 2 years and then god knows what BC was trying to do with some of those moves. Bosh needed a SF and they never got him 1 after Garbo got hurt.

    You don't like Demar, stop liking the team. Seriously, deal with it. He's a sidekick-- YES. He's WAY better than Fields is presently. It's not even up for debate. The stats you guys are using for comparison are majorly flawed! No stats should be used so isolated anyway!

    Fields played for 1036 minutes (51 games), Demar played for 3011 minutes (EVERY GAME) I don't care what wizard mathematician you are, the variances in comparing these two players is WIDE. Fields played a third less games, two-third less minutes. Fields would have gotten garbage minutes to up his stats (which Demar would not) Demar would have way more minutes playing beside Andrea Bargnani-- one of the leagues worst Defensive Rating players. Fields would have played against more second units, Demar would have more difficult defensive assignments when the two were on the floor at the same time.

    I could go on, and on...Statistically the BEST LINEUP the Raptors had was Gay, Lowry, Amir, JV, and DD. If you're going to play the numbers game you'll have to explain why if Fields is SO MUCH better than Demar why he wasn't a part of the best lineup the team put forth. Personally, I would rather wait. See what Fields is, see what moves the team makes and then make judgements-- but that's me. However, if you think the Raptors are going to shake up the starting lineup in the off season I'm fairly confident you guys are in for a rude awakening. When you consider money Bargnani can only be traded by himself. MAYBE you could add Ross, JV, or Lucas. Some of the suggestions of adding 5-9 million dollar contracts to a trade with the new tax system, when the trade partner would be taking on 11 million dollars is SILLY!!! Highschool economics. It's called 'opportunity cost.' Jeesh.

  8. Like why_you_mad_tho liked this post
  9. #127
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Wow, the insanity. So much misuse of stats/analytics. Little logic, and continuation of the kind of behavior that has plagued the Raptors. If the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and expecting different results MAYBE the Raptors should do something different. Instead of high player turnover EVERY YEAR a new coach EVERY OTHER YEAR maybe, JUST MAYBE they should grow from within. IF Demar has SO MUCH value, it is illogical to trade him. HERE'S another concept the RAPS have never followed...KEEP THE BEST PLAYERS!!! Bosh is one thing, but that team was only built for him for 2 years and then god knows what BC was trying to do with some of those moves. Bosh needed a SF and they never got him 1 after Garbo got hurt.

    You don't like Demar, stop liking the team. Seriously, deal with it. He's a sidekick-- YES. He's WAY better than Fields is presently. It's not even up for debate. The stats you guys are using for comparison are majorly flawed! No stats should be used so isolated anyway!

    Fields played for 1036 minutes (51 games), Demar played for 3011 minutes (EVERY GAME) I don't care what wizard mathematician you are, the variances in comparing these two players is WIDE. Fields played a third less games, two-third less minutes. Fields would have gotten garbage minutes to up his stats (which Demar would not) Demar would have way more minutes playing beside Andrea Bargnani-- one of the leagues worst Defensive Rating players. Fields would have played against more second units, Demar would have more difficult defensive assignments when the two were on the floor at the same time.

    I could go on, and on...Statistically the BEST LINEUP the Raptors had was Gay, Lowry, Amir, JV, and DD. If you're going to play the numbers game you'll have to explain why if Fields is SO MUCH better than Demar why he wasn't a part of the best lineup the team put forth. Personally, I would rather wait. See what Fields is, see what moves the team makes and then make judgements-- but that's me. However, if you think the Raptors are going to shake up the starting lineup in the off season I'm fairly confident you guys are in for a rude awakening. When you consider money Bargnani can only be traded by himself. MAYBE you could add Ross, JV, or Lucas. Some of the suggestions of adding 5-9 million dollar contracts to a trade with the new tax system, when the trade partner would be taking on 11 million dollars is SILLY!!! Highschool economics. It's called 'opportunity cost.' Jeesh.
    Wait a second I thought sample size mattered?

    And who said they did not like DD? You guys get all hyped up and emotional in your thinking and reasoning. You are missing the forest through the trees.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon May 20th, 2013 at 07:35 AM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #128
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Wait a second I thought sample size mattered?

    And who said they did not like DD? You guys get all hyped up and emotional in your thinking and reasoning. You are missing the forest through the trees.
    Bottom line for me is if Fields is our starting SG come the beginning of the season we are fucked. You wanna replace DD in the starting lineup, it has to be with somebody significantly better than Fields. How many starting 2's are there in the league with no offensive game? Tony Allen is the best example I can think of, but he is a defensive specialist who is on another level defensively than Fields. Fields is a mediocre defender and Allen is elite.

  11. #129
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    fields is mediocre sums him up completely. There arent many good 2s in the league, if we move DeMar its Ross's job to fill, not fields.

  12. #130
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Bottom line for me is if Fields is our starting SG come the beginning of the season we are fucked. You wanna replace DD in the starting lineup, it has to be with somebody significantly better than Fields. How many starting 2's are there in the league with no offensive game? Tony Allen is the best example I can think of, but he is a defensive specialist who is on another level defensively than Fields. Fields is a mediocre defender and Allen is elite.
    And even Allen is a liability overall on the floor at times in the playoffs. Every player on the floor doesn't have to be a scoring option, but they have to at least space the floor and be a threat to score if they're left wide open. Allen doesn't do that and if Fields doesn't regain his three point stroke (or at least fool teams into respecting it), there won't really be anywhere for him to cut to off the ball.

  13. #131
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MTL
    Posts
    1,368
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm so glad none of us are actual GM's.

  14. #132
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I've been busy and couldn't join in, but great exchanges and discussion, fellas.

    Point 1: Fields is a bust of a signing. He got our offer as part of a larger strategy and fell thru and left us with major egg on the face. He's 1/3 thru his horrible contract that he didn't earn and never should have got. It was a laughable move from the beginning. He's not a rotation player on a contender. He'll have a middling NBA career and make no meaningful contributions anywhere. Anything he gives us should be considered an unexpected bonus.

    Point 2: If your giving Fields a pass due to his arm injury, then I think you need to do the same with Andrea. His arm injuries we even worse, and his offensive game is even more dependent on his shot going down.

    Point 3:
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    --Tim Leiweke


    This thread has devolved into roster tweaks that will net us nothing close to contendership. If the boss believes the above quote, then the best way to get a championship level roster is to tank and draft well. Our 5 year lotto streak makes this unacceptable to many, and I fear that we're steering into Atlanta/Milwaukee type relevant irrelevancy.

  15. #133
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I've been busy and couldn't join in, but great exchanges and discussion, fellas.

    Point 1: Fields is a bust of a signing. He got our offer as part of a larger strategy and fell thru and left us with major egg on the face. He's 1/3 thru his horrible contract that he didn't earn and never should have got. It was a laughable move from the beginning. He's not a rotation player on a contender. He'll have a middling NBA career and make no meaningful contributions anywhere. Anything he gives us should be considered an unexpected bonus.

    Point 2: If your giving Fields a pass due to his arm injury, then I think you need to do the same with Andrea. His arm injuries we even worse, and his offensive game is even more dependent on his shot going down.

    Point 3:
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    --Tim Leiweke


    This thread has devolved into roster tweaks that will net us nothing close to contendership. If the boss believes the above quote, then the best way to get a championship level roster is to tank and draft well. Our 5 year lotto streak makes this unacceptable to many, and I fear that we're steering into Atlanta/Milwaukee type relevant irrelevancy.
    Couldn't disagree more. Other than a slight case for San Antonio, none of the teams still in the playoffs tanked to put their team together.
    Just look at Memphis for an example of a contender that didn't draft their way there, but did so through trade and free agent signings.
    The only lotto picks on the roster are Mike Conley, Ed Davis, and Jerryd Bayless. Davis and Bayless come off the bench and aren't key pieces of that team, and they also were acquired through trade. Conley is the only lotto pick that Memphis actually drafted. So, they clearly did not tank and build through the draft to get where they are.

    Indiana, another team that didn't tank and build through the draft. Miami, another team that didn't tank and build through the draft. San Antonio, outside of the year they tanked for Duncan, have always been in the playoffs, so clearly they didn't tank to build that roster. When SA tanked for Duncan, there was no lottery, and they were guaranteed the first pick. If that was the case, then maybe you try to tank for Wiggins (unfortunately at least 5 other teams would try that as well), but that isn't the case, so forget about tanking. Tanking does not build championship teams.

  16. Like Soft Euro liked this post
  17. #134
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Couldn't disagree more. Other than a slight case for San Antonio, none of the teams still in the playoffs tanked to put their team together.
    Just look at Memphis for an example of a contender that didn't draft their way there, but did so through trade and free agent signings.
    The only lotto picks on the roster are Mike Conley, Ed Davis, and Jerryd Bayless. Davis and Bayless come off the bench and aren't key pieces of that team, and they also were acquired through trade. Conley is the only lotto pick that Memphis actually drafted. So, they clearly did not tank and build through the draft to get where they are.

    Indiana, another team that didn't tank and build through the draft. Miami, another team that didn't tank and build through the draft. San Antonio, outside of the year they tanked for Duncan, have always been in the playoffs, so clearly they didn't tank to build that roster. When SA tanked for Duncan, there was no lottery, and they were guaranteed the first pick. If that was the case, then maybe you try to tank for Wiggins (unfortunately at least 5 other teams would try that as well), but that isn't the case, so forget about tanking. Tanking does not build championship teams.
    I'm going to dive into this even further and see of all of the playoff teams this year, how many of them have lotto picks they drafted starting for them.

    Miami: 1 lotto pick starter (Dwayne Wade, pick 5)
    New York: 0 lotto pick starters
    Indiana: 1 lotto pick starter (Paul George, pick 10)
    Chicago: 1 lotto pick starter (Joakim Noah, pick 9)
    Boston: 1 lotto pick starter (Paul Pierce, pick 10)
    Atlanta: 1 lotto pick starter (Al Horford, pick 3)
    Brooklyn: 1 lotto pick starter (Brook Lopez, pick 10)
    Milwaukee: 1 lotto pick starter (Brandon Jennings, pick 10)

    San Antonio: 1 lotto pick starter (Tim Duncan, pick 1)
    Memphis: 1 lotto pick starter (Mike Conley, pick 4)
    Oklahoma City: 2 lotto pick starters (Kevin Durant, pick 2; Russel Westbrook, pick 4)
    Golden State: 3 lotto pick starters (Stephen Curry, pick 7; Klay Thompson, pick 11; Harrison Barnes, pick 7)
    Denver: 0 lotto pick starters
    LA Clippers: 1 lotto pick starter (Blake Griffin, pick 1)
    LA Lakers: 1 lotto pick starter (Kobe Bryant, pick 13)
    Houston: 0 lotto pick starters


    I think that fully debunks the idea that a championship team is built through tanking and getting lotto picks. At best you could say you need one pretty good lotto pick, but it clearly doesn't even need to be a high one. We already have 4 lotto picks on our roster that we drafted (Bargs, DD, JV, and Ross), and JV certainly qualifies as at least one good one. Based on the above, we don't need any more tanking for lotto picks.

  18. #135
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Utrecht, The Netherlands (Yes, that's Europe!)
    Posts
    1,920
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I like the article by Ziller about The affordability of an elite NBA defense.

    There are a number of interesting notes about the NBA's four conference finals participants including ...

    • Three represent traditional small markets, or at least cities considered to be in the small market coalition. (San Antonio is top 10 in the United States in population, but its media market is ranked much lower.)
    • The teams finished Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 7 in team defense over the regular season. They were Nos. 2, 7, 17 and 20 in offense.
    • Three of the teams were outside the top 10 in payroll this season. (I'll let you guess which one was the exception.) The teams ranked Nos. 4, 12, 22 and 25 in payroll, per HoopsHype.
    Apparently you don't need to be an attractive market or even sign big name free agents. It helps not focusing on points but on defense. Of course, there is a Rudy Gay mention:

    Defense is cheaper than offense in the NBA. (The exception is at center, where even defense-skewed players are pricey.) Scoring is the top determinant for individual salary; if you have a couple of 22-point scorers, you're going to be outlaying a lot of money for offense. Some of the top defenders, though, make a pittance. Consider Tony Allen, the Grizzlies' ace perimeter defender. He's made All-Defense three straight years, including the first team in the past two seasons. He's wrapping up a three-year, $9.5 million contract. The Grizzlies' old top scorer, Rudy Gay, who was traded in January, made $16.4 million just this season to score 20 points a game.

  19. Like TRX liked this post
  20. #136
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Bottom line for me is if Fields is our starting SG come the beginning of the season we are fucked. You wanna replace DD in the starting lineup, it has to be with somebody significantly better than Fields. How many starting 2's are there in the league with no offensive game? Tony Allen is the best example I can think of, but he is a defensive specialist who is on another level defensively than Fields. Fields is a mediocre defender and Allen is elite.
    Not sure how that claim can be made without knowing what DD hypothetically returned.

  21. #137
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,319
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Wait a second I thought sample size mattered?

    And who said they did not like DD? You guys get all hyped up and emotional in your thinking and reasoning. You are missing the forest through the trees.
    Actually, I'm not emotionally involved (look at all my posts-- totally fine with moving Demar for the right piece). Also, you highlighted the wrong part:

    Personally, I would rather wait.
    And you still have not elaborated why the stats you chose to use on an island are the only stats to follow. Just sayin'.

  22. #138
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Actually, I'm not emotionally involved (look at all my posts-- totally fine with moving Demar for the right piece). Also, you highlighted the wrong part:



    And you still have not elaborated why the stats you chose to use on an island are the only stats to follow. Just sayin'.
    There have been a lot of stats used in this thread by a lot of people. Personally I think win share and net rating of offrtg and DefRtg are pretty much all encompassing the game from a statistical perspective but that is just my opinion. I certainly put more stock in them than ppg.

  23. #139
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    [QUOTE=Matt52;208626]There have been a lot of stats used in this thread by a lot of people. Personally I think win share and net rating of offrtg and DefRtg are pretty much all encompassing the game from a statistical perspective but that is just my opinion. I certainly put more stock in them than ppg.


    And where have I said anything about trading dd for scraps? Again misconception of my stance and the point I continue to make - which I obviously continue to fail at.

  24. #140
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Bottom line for me is if Fields is our starting SG come the beginning of the season we are fucked. You wanna replace DD in the starting lineup, it has to be with somebody significantly better than Fields. How many starting 2's are there in the league with no offensive game? Tony Allen is the best example I can think of, but he is a defensive specialist who is on another level defensively than Fields. Fields is a mediocre defender and Allen is elite.
    I'm not sure if you realize that we are f*cked either way. I guess it depends on how much making the playoffs and getting eliminated in the first round means to you. From a big picture standpoint, I'd much rather have someone else paying DeRozan $9.5M to do exactly what Rudy Gay does already. We have $9M devoted to Ross and Fields, and it makes a hell of a lot more sense to find out what we have in them than watching mini Rudy Gay pull in just as much while those other fight for scrap minutes.

    Even when Kleiza's contract is Amnestied, we'll be at 57M of committed salaries heading into 2014-2015, and that's without any point guards on the roster. We are literally cash strapped for the next two seasons with the only hope of the team getting better via crossing our fingers that JV, Ross and Acy will turn into something.
    your pal,
    ebrian

Page 7 of 47 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 17 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (2 members and 1 guests)

  1. DrOctagon,
  2. enlightenment

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •