View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #141
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Crossroad

    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    This thread has devolved into roster tweaks that will net us nothing close to contendership. If the boss believes the above quote, then the best way to get a championship level roster is to tank and draft well. Our 5 year lotto streak makes this unacceptable to many, and I fear that we're steering into Atlanta/Milwaukee type relevant irrelevancy.
    Tanking is no more a proven method than trying to right the ship while keeping integrity.

    No GM is going to want to come to Toronto to lose for three or four years and then MAYBE resurface out of it. That could be a career killer right there. Who of worth would find that appealing?

  2. #142
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure if you realize that we are f*cked either way. I guess it depends on how much making the playoffs and getting eliminated in the first round means to you. From a big picture standpoint, I'd much rather have someone else paying DeRozan $9.5M to do exactly what Rudy Gay does already. We have $9M devoted to Ross and Fields, and it makes a hell of a lot more sense to find out what we have in them than watching mini Rudy Gay pull in just as much while those other fight for scrap minutes.

    Even when Kleiza's contract is Amnestied, we'll be at 57M of committed salaries heading into 2014-2015, and that's without any point guards on the roster. We are literally cash strapped for the next two seasons with the only hope of the team getting better via crossing our fingers that JV, Ross and Acy will turn into something.
    I think it'd be smarter to give Ross another year to develop while we give a full season to the Lowry/DD/Gay/Amir/JV lineup. If Ross develops at a normal rate he should be ready to start in year 3, and DD would become much more expendable. Now that BC is gone though I'm hoping we get Ujiri and he comes in a does something that blows my mind.

  3. #143
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    And where have I said anything about trading dd for scraps? Again misconception of my stance and the point I continue to make - which I obviously continue to fail at.
    You don't continue to fail. It seems like it 'cause people WANT to see this as a Demar Vs Fields thing.

    I've mentioned earlier that I'd like to see Demar traded as long as a legitimate starting PF is acquired. In other words, if Amir continues to be the starter I'd rather see Demar remain due to his offensive contribution. Demar for Millsap(S&T) sounds perfectly fair to me. Not that I'm against another way of acquiring Millsap.

    However I'm against starting Fields. I prefer Ross as starter. I think his ability to shoot the 3 pointer would be very valuable as Gay doesn't shoot a good 3 pointer.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  4. #144
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    You don't continue to fail. It seems like it 'cause people WANT to see this as a Demar Vs Fields thing.

    I've mentioned earlier that I'd like to see Demar traded as long as a legitimate starting PF is acquired. In other words, if Amir continues to be the starter I'd rather see Demar remain due to his offensive contribution. Demar for Millsap(S&T) sounds perfectly fair to me. Not that I'm against another way of acquiring Millsap.

    However I'm against starting Fields. I prefer Ross as starter. I think his ability to shoot the 3 pointer would be very valuable as Gay doesn't shoot a good 3 pointer.
    Gay is a better 3 point shooter than Ross.

    Rudy gay was 1.3/4.0 for .336 3pt%
    Terrence Ross was 0.9/2.7 for .332 3pt%

    On his career Gay is 1/3 for .343 3pt%

    Ross has a ways to go to be a better 3 point shooter than Gay.

  5. #145
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Gay is a better 3 point shooter than Ross.
    Gay the seasoned veteran, FOR NOW, is a better 3 point shooter than Ross the Rookie as far as NBA statistics are concerned.

    When sheer talent in considered, one shouldn't even consider comparing the two. Ross is a much superior 3 point shooter.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  6. #146
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I feel like the Rudy/DD combo can work and could be efficient. Lowry is going to have to sacrifice his shots and focus more on the other aspects of the game. Like he was doing it during the end of the season.

  7. #147
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I feel like the Rudy/DD combo can work and could be efficient. Lowry is going to have to sacrifice his shots and focus more on the other aspects of the game. Like he was doing it during the end of the season.
    The only thing it can work out is if one or both of them develop a 3pt shot. Btw, Rudy Gay just 3 years ago shot 40% from 3pt range. After that? 31% 31% and 34%. Not sure what happened but 3pt has always been part of his game.

    As for DeRozan, not sure if he can develop that part of his game. But he's still young, a gym rat. He said after this season that he wants to improve his 3pt game this summer. So we'll see.....

    So like i said, i want to see a FULL season of Gay and DeRozan before i make a decision.
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  8. #148
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I think it'd be smarter to give Ross another year to develop while we give a full season to the Lowry/DD/Gay/Amir/JV lineup. If Ross develops at a normal rate he should be ready to start in year 3, and DD would become much more expendable. Now that BC is gone though I'm hoping we get Ujiri and he comes in a does something that blows my mind.
    I'd rather develop him now than stash him away another year like we just did. With a healthy Fields he's going to play even less minutes that last year, and he was 19th in minutes played amongst his fellow rookies last year. Developing rookies at a normal rate makes sense for playoffs teams, not teams that averaged 30 wins over the past 5 years.
    your pal,
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  9. #149
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    The only thing it can work out is if one or both of them develop a 3pt shot. Btw, Rudy Gay just 3 years ago shot 40% from 3pt range. After that? 31% 31% and 34%. Not sure what happened but 3pt has always been part of his game.

    As for DeRozan, not sure if he can develop that part of his game. But he's still young, a gym rat. He said after this season that he wants to improve his 3pt game this summer. So we'll see.....

    So like i said, i want to see a FULL season of Gay and DeRozan before i make a decision.
    What happened to gay? He injured his shoulder.

  10. #150
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    Gay had vision correction surgery right after the season.

  11. #151
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What happened to gay? He injured his shoulder.
    People have to put into consideration that he lost his grandmother a month before the trade. She was ill for most of the season. His attention was obviously else where during the beging of the season.

    I don't really think him and DD are that much a like. DD is more of a slasher where as Rudy really tries to set his offense through his jump shots. People use to say Wade and LeBron were too a like but, it took the about year to iron thinks out. Neither DD or Rudy are on that talent level but I feel their skill level is more compatible than the two hall of famers

  12. #152
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Gay had vision correction surgery right after the season.
    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    People have to put into consideration that he lost his grandmother a month before the trade. She was ill for most of the season. His attention was obviously else where during the beging of the season.
    All valid points as well.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #153
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    I for one think Gay and DD are going to make some noise playing a full season together Gay and DD are a nightmare match up defensively for most teams 3 and 2 options. Both have post moves both are crazy athletic I want to see this happen.

    with so much negativity floating around fans forget theres alot to be excited about as well.

  14. #154
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Gay the seasoned veteran, FOR NOW, is a better 3 point shooter than Ross the Rookie as far as NBA statistics are concerned.

    When sheer talent in considered, one shouldn't even consider comparing the two. Ross is a much superior 3 point shooter.
    So...I take it you want the fans to wait 2 or 3 years rather than consider immediate improvement?

    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    I for one think Gay and DD are going to make some noise playing a full season together Gay and DD are a nightmare match up defensively for most teams 3 and 2 options. Both have post moves both are crazy athletic I want to see this happen.

    with so much negativity floating around fans forget theres alot to be excited about as well.
    This is where I'm leaning. There are far worse wing duos in the league than Demar, and Gay.

  15. #155
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    I for one think Gay and DD are going to make some noise playing a full season together Gay and DD are a nightmare match up defensively for most teams 3 and 2 options. Both have post moves both are crazy athletic I want to see this happen.

    with so much negativity floating around fans forget theres alot to be excited about as well.
    Unless there is a trade (with Demar) that makes us seriously better, I am all for waiting and watching the wing combo of Demar and Rudy throughout next season. They showed great signs of chemistry and flashes of excellent play this year. People can get a little trade happy. While I agree that there are trades that must be made (namely getting rid of Andrea), this team still has room to grow as a unit together and improve.

    I just get the feeling that our options are very limited right now and people seem to want a big move made this offseason. Would it be crazy to suggest that now is not the most ideal time to pull the trigger on a big trade? While there are some plausible options (trades with Minnesota or Utah come to mind), maybe it would be better in the log term to be a little patient.

  16. #156
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Important Question:

    Some of those who are proponents to leveling everything and starting over are also those who expect the Raptors to find a talented, high profile GM to take over for Colangelo.

    That said, if you're a talented, high profile GM, why on earth would you want to come to Toronto if the objective is to lose for the next two or three years? How does that help your reputation, the prestige you've worked hard to build throughout the league?

    This is a matter of logic. The Raptors aren't flexible enough to give the next GM an easy start and they would not have that flexibility unless they dismantled for the next three seasons. No high profile candidate will want to join a dismantle but they may look at what Toronto currently has and see a way out of it without going there. The team does have some talent after all.

    You guys who want it blown up but also want MLSE to score a good GM: You're dreaming.

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  18. #157
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Some of those who are proponents to leveling everything and starting over are also those who expect the Raptors to find a talented, high profile GM to take over for Colangelo.

    That said, if you're a talented, high profile GM, why on earth would you want to come to Toronto if the objective is to lose for the next two or three years? How does that help your reputation, the prestige you've worked hard to build throughout the league?

    This is a matter of logic. The Raptors aren't flexible enough to give the next GM an easy start and they would not have that flexibility unless they dismantled for the next three seasons. No high profile candidate will want to join a dismantle but they may look at what Toronto currently has and see a way out of it without going there. The team does have some talent after all.

    You guys who want it blown up but also want MLSE to score a good GM: You're dreaming.
    Danny Ferry came to Atlanta as a "big name" GM last summer and immediately starting dismantling that team with an eye on the future. Rob Hennigan took over in Orlando last summer with the reputation as one of the brightest young minds in the game, and completely stripped it down with an eye on bottoming out this season and for the foreseeable future. Chris Grant has been "tanking" for his entire tenure running the Cavs; the majority of people are saying that he's doing a fantastic job and their future is incredibly bright. Ryan McDonough, another front office wunderkid, just signed on to run the Suns as they are set to enter a lengthy run as a bottom feeder. Sam Presti - who makes everyone's list of top 5 executive's - was the guy who orchestrated one of the most successful runs of tanking in NBA history. The list goes on.

    Hypothetically, I don't think having a "dismantle" looming would deter potential candidates any more than inheriting a capped out non-playoff team with no draft picks this summer and little in the way of trade assets, and trying to figure out what to do next. I'd even argue that the latter would be much more of a deterrent than the former.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed May 22nd, 2013 at 09:42 AM.

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  20. #158
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Danny Ferry came to Atlanta as a "big name" GM last summer and immediately starting dismantling that team with an eye on the future. Rob Hennigan took over in Orlando last summer with the reputation as one of the brightest young minds in the game, and completely stripped it down with an eye on bottoming out this season and for the foreseeable future. Chris Grant has been "tanking" for his entire tenure running the Cavs; the majority of people are saying that he's doing a fantastic job and their future is incredibly bright. Ryan McDonough, another front office wunderkid, just signed on to run the Suns as they are set to enter a lengthy run as a bottom feeder. Sam Presti - who makes everyone's list of top 5 executive's - was the guy who orchestrated one of the most successful runs of tanking in NBA history. The list goes on.

    Hypothetically, I don't think having a "dismantle" looming would deter potential candidates any more than inheriting a capped out non-playoff team with no draft picks this summer and little in the way of trade assets, and trying to figure out what to do next. I'd even argue that the latter would be much more of a deterrent than the former.
    I think the point is that any "blowing it up" should wait for the new GM to be hired, so that they have the assets to work with, in order to tear down / rebuild the team the way they say fit. I don't think a GM would want a team to be blown up right before they're hired, since they'd have a lot less options available with all the most tradeable assets gone.

  21. #159
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think the point is that any "blowing it up" should wait for the new GM to be hired, so that they have the assets to work with, in order to tear down / rebuild the team the way they say fit. I don't think a GM would want a team to be blown up right before they're hired, since they'd have a lot less options available with all the most tradeable assets gone.
    Actually I think Apollo came out from left field with his 'statement' that no GM would come here with a team that got blown up. I don't think there is a single person in the universe who thinks it should (or could) be done before a GM is hired.
    your pal,
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  22. #160
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    “After thorough evaluation and considering all the options, we have concluded that these changes will be in the best interest of the organization,” said Leiweke. “By splitting the roles and having both men report directly to me, we are adding depth to the basketball operations group and giving the Toronto Raptors the best chance of competing for championships in the future. The new GM will inherit a great situation in Toronto, as all of my due diligence around the League indicates that we have a fine, young core and a few key moves will make us a playoff contender next season.”

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/after-cola...or-the-raptors
    I think blowing it up/tanking can safely be removed from the equation or list of possibilities.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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