View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #181
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Maybe. I would imagine everyone but JV is a likely candidate to be moved now.



    Only reason why JV is likely safe is because he has shown his floor to be an average to slightly above average NBA centre - the hardest position to fill in the NBA.
    Thing is its hard to blow it up and except playoffs next year. The way I see it you 3 position talent wise that are at least top 15 at their position. Lowry, Rudy and Jonas. You just have to fill the holes.

  2. #182
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Thing is its hard to blow it up and except playoffs next year. The way I see it you 3 position talent wise that are at least top 15 at their position. Lowry, Rudy and Jonas. You just have to fill the holes.
    In my book, that's our core right there (along with Amir). That's a healthy foursome to build a team from.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #183
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    In my book, that's our core right there (along with Amir). That's a healthy foursome to build a team from.
    Yeah I feel like Amir and Landry would compliment that starting lineup nicely. Than you could flip DD/Barney for Gasol. Have a starting lineup of Lowry, Landry, Gay, Gasol and Val. With a wing rotation of Landry/Gay/Ross and big rotation of JV/Gasol/Amir. Get a back up PG and you have a legit playoff 8 man rotation. A team that really compliments every player.

  4. #184
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think there seems to be a bit of a gap on the definition of a rebuild. We have seen a few half-assed attempts at a rebuild but they were never carried through. After averaging 30 wins over the past 5 years, how could you not do a proper rebuild?

    I'm not going to sit here and say that rebuilding a franchise is easy. But when you lose 242 games over 5 years (sadly, that includes a shortened season) and you're about to enter a season over the cap and have no choice but to field the exact same roster as you did last season, then if alarm bells aren't going off in your head I don't know what else to tell you.

    To me, here are the fundamentals to a proper rebuild -- drafting well (having actual draft picks helps too), developing young players, establishing cap and financial flexibility, and then taking advantage of that flexibility in trades and free agency.

    Here's an old quote from an old thread (March 2011) about rebuilding:

    Cleveland has two lotto picks in a weak draft and there is no telling if either guy they pick will be successful. Then you need to consider the fact that they cast a dark cloud over the roster to get that pick when they took back out of shape Baron Davis and his huge, ridiculous contract. Him alone is going to stunt their growth by killing their flexibility. Right now, they don't have anywhere near the talent the Raptors have. After the draft they still might not be much closer because Colangelo is one of the best drafters in the league and Bargnani will probably be on the move.
    The first and last line made me chuckle.

    I'd much rather have Cleveland's roster today than Toronto's because they did it right. They lost Lebron at the same time we lost Bosh, but instead of retooling like we did, they took on bad contracts in order to gain draft picks and start over. We've lost 151 games since, they've lost 166. Today we have (arguably) better talent, but they have the better outlook. Cleveland heads into this offseason with a future superstar in tow, a lottery pick, and are $22M under the cap. We're heading in with a potential all-star who just had eye surgery, no draft picks, and are $14M over the cap.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  6. #185
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Yeah I feel like Amir and Landry would compliment that starting lineup nicely. Than you could flip DD/Barney for Gasol. Have a starting lineup of Lowry, Landry, Gay, Gasol and Val. With a wing rotation of Landry/Gay/Ross and big rotation of JV/Gasol/Amir. Get a back up PG and you have a legit playoff 8 man rotation. A team that really compliments every player.
    Speaking of backup PG, I hear Prigioni might be available. I think he'd be a solid veteran backup (who can actually distribute the ball), that would fit in nicely here. Sign-and-trade perhaps?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #186
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Speaking of backup PG, I hear Prigioni might be available. I think he'd be a solid veteran backup (who can actually distribute the ball), that would fit in nicely here. Sign-and-trade perhaps?
    Maybe straight up sign-and-trade for Alan Anderson?

    I like Prigioni's game...and especially if we stock another young PG in the rotation.

  8. #187
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Thing is its hard to blow it up and except playoffs next year. The way I see it you 3 position talent wise that are at least top 15 at their position. Lowry, Rudy and Jonas. You just have to fill the holes.
    I did not mean to imply that there would be a blow up or tank. I'm sure pieces of value can be obtained for Toronto's pieces - even Bargnani.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #188
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Everyone gets that. We're just not all on board with slashing the cap to nothing, praying for a high pick, praying that the high pick turns out to be a really good player and then praying that really good player decides to stay in Toronto. We've been there, we've seen this. It hasn't worked and I personally don't want to sit through three to five more seasons of losing to have a couple chances at the roulette wheel and to see them overpay for free agents.
    What excites you about staying the course?

    You say you don't want to experience any more losing but the current "win now" version of the Raptors finished 14 games under .500 last year, and will be forced to return much of the same lineup next season as well. You don't want to see the team be forced to 'overpay for free agents' in the future yet the current roster is littered with grossly overpaid players.

    I don't think it's fair to say that a rebuild hasn't worked in Toronto because a true rebuild has never been attempted. What you've seen is the Bryan Colangelo version of a rebuild. That's where you preach a youth movement and building through the draft out of one side of your mouth but you actually offer big money/long term extensions to vets like Chandler & Nash in back to back summers, trade away first round picks for marginal short term upgrades, sacrifice youth/financial flexibility/draft picks to go "all in" on a player like Rudy Gay, and foolishly burn through your cap space for guys like Landry Fields out of the other. Are you surprised at all that BC's "rebuild" fell flat?

    There is so much more that goes into a proper rebuild then getting bad and 'praying' for a high draft pick. You're able to absorb bad deals and get assets in return, develop your young building blocks without a "win now" mandate, and you create other opportunities to improve your team by stockpiling assets/draft picks/financial flexibility.

    Cleveland is the team right now that provides the best example. Everyone will point to how "lucky" they were to get Kyrie Irving. It wasn't even their own pick that ended up being number one! It was the Clippers pick, which they acquired in the Baron Davis deal by absorbing his Hindenburg of a contract. They have two more first rounders this year - including the #1 overall - and 4 more first rounders in 2014 and 2015. They also have a glut of cap space over the next two summers, as well as a stable of young, cheap and promising talent. Yes, they've been aided by some amount of inherent luck, but they've also had a real plan that they've committed to in the post Lebron era. They've been patient, they've been calculated, and they've put themselves in a great position moving forward.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu May 23rd, 2013 at 10:17 AM.

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  11. #189
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Even so, the Lowry-Gay-Johnson-Valanciunas-DeRozan five-man core has promise; the Raps outscored opponents by nearly 13 points per 100 possessions — a larger number than Oklahoma City’s league-leading margin — in 343 minutes with those five on the floor, and it’s fun to think of how good that group might do on offense if Valanciunas develops and the Raps dare to flip DeRozan — one of their own — for some real outside shooting.

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...ess-in-the-nba
    A good reason why a blow up is not necessary.

    Definitely agree with the idea of tweaking this. What can some current assets return? Can current assets make a better five man lineup?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #190
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    This team can be elite if they are managed the right way and if they don't keep running stupid iso's everytime down the floor.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  13. #191
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Everyone gets that. We're just not all on board with slashing the cap to nothing,
    I'm not on board with that either. We've already gone through 5 losing seasons, and I'm not prepared to go another 3-4 more.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    praying for a high pick, praying that the high pick turns out to be a really good player and then praying that really good player decides to stay in Toronto. We've been there, we've seen this. It hasn't worked and I personally don't want to sit through three to five more seasons of losing to have a couple chances at the roulette wheel and to see them overpay for free agents.
    I'd argue that proper rebuilding isn't about praying for a high pick and praying that the high pick turns out to be really good and then praying he'll stay with the team. That's a sign of a team who has decided to rebuild.. and then stop after one year. When done properly, it's not 1 guy you're worried about but 2-4 guys that don't necessarily need to be superstars. When you have that many assets then you have options.

    Cleveland won only 24 games this season. We won 34, and with a full season of Gay we might win 40 and make the playoffs next year. But despite that possibility I'd STILL rather have the Cavs' payroll situation and future outlook. They've built their team through the draft (the only mistake so far has been picking Thompson over Valanciunas). They've taken on big contracts (Baron Davis) to get there.

    Anyway, I think that despite philosophical differences on this topic, we are where we're at and there really isn't a whole lot of options other than to move forward with what we have. I think for me I've always lamented at the way Colangelo mis-managed this team over the years. My only point was that a proper rebuild does work, if carried through.

    With what we have, I still think DeRozan should be moved, not because he's not very good, but because he's the only guy anyone is going to trade for that has value.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  14. #192
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Modeling after mediocrity will lead to mediocrity

    You're contradicting yourself. One paragraph you're saying you're not prepared for 3-4 years of losing, the next you're saying you prefer the Cavs situation and essentially you're bummed that the Raptors will probably make the playoffs next year. You can't have both. You can't be in the Cavs' current situation without doing what they did.

    That doesn't mean you can't get to where they want to go by doing it another way.

    I don't envy the Cavs. They were perennial losers for years prior to LBJ and they've been losers since. I do want the Raptors to get to the same position that they're trying to get to however...

  15. #193
    Raptors Republic Starter Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're contradicting yourself. One paragraph you're saying you're not prepared for 3-4 years of losing, the next you're saying you prefer the Cavs situation and essentially you're bummed that the Raptors will probably make the playoffs next year. You can't have both. You can't be in the Cavs' current situation without doing what they did.

    That doesn't mean you can't get to where they want to go by doing it another way.

    I don't envy the Cavs. They were perennial losers for years prior to LBJ and they've been losers since. I do want the Raptors to get to the same position that they're trying to get to however...
    Great post. All this talk of the Cavs being desirable is blowing my mind. That team has sucked every single year except for the years Lebron was there. I don't think they'll be a playoff team next year either. Having a bunch of lotto picks on your team does not make it good. I posted this a few days ago in a different thread but of all the playoff teams this year, only 2 had more than one lotto pick starting for them (that they selected). Spurs built through the draft, but did so by selecting great value at high picks, not being in the lottery (Duncan is the only player selected in the lotto). The Heat didn't select any of their players in the lotto. The Grizzlies only selected Conley in the lotto. The Pacers only selected Granger in the lotto. The Bobcats have tons of lotto picks on their team, how is that working out for them?

  16. #194
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Great post. All this talk of the Cavs being desirable is blowing my mind. That team has sucked every single year except for the years Lebron was there. I don't think they'll be a playoff team next year either. Having a bunch of lotto picks on your team does not make it good. I posted this a few days ago in a different thread but of all the playoff teams this year, only 2 had more than one lotto pick starting for them (that they selected). Spurs built through the draft, but did so by selecting great value at high picks, not being in the lottery (Duncan is the only player selected in the lotto). The Heat didn't select any of their players in the lotto. The Grizzlies only selected Conley in the lotto. The Pacers only selected Granger in the lotto. The Bobcats have tons of lotto picks on their team, how is that working out for them?
    The lotto actually does help. Spurs had Robinson before Duncan and he was a lotto pick. Pacers drafted George who was in the lotto. They traded Leonard for Hill and Leonard was in the lotto. Grizzlies traded Pau (who was in the lotto) for Marc. Having lotto picks are great assets because they are cheap and have a lot of potential.

    Cleveland can easily flip a lot of their young assets for all-star type talent. If Minny for example was willing to trade Love, Cleveland could make a great offer. If Cleveland wanted Gay they could have gotten him as they could have offered a better package (Andy V and TT would be an arguably better deal than Jose and Ed for example). If they wanted Harden they could have created a better package then Houston, also in my opinion.

    Drafting TT over JV or Waiters over Barnes are eye scratchers. However they can become better then the Raptors quicker because they have cap space, young assets, and draft picks (all of which are gold in the new CBA).

    Saying all that, I think its too late for the Raptors to start all over. We need to try and find a GM that can work miracles by turning our 'assets' into quality players. JV/Gay/Amir are the core we need to build around, and that's a pretty good start. DeMar could be in there, but I think he's a little to redundant. I would like to see how he does going into next year (he's turning the age where most SG's peak). But by the deadline if he doesn't improve enough he should be moved for someone that works better next to Gay and JV. And that one move could make enough of a difference that you could continue to build on.

    We still don't have a stud though.. and unfortunately every team in the playoffs right now does.. Lebron/George/Duncan/Gasol are the real talented players. Gay/JV could get us there, but JV is still 2-3 years away, and by then Gay is a free agent. But we should see how it plays out.

    However my point to all this is that Cleveland could quickly become better then the Raptors. They have a proven stud in Irving and could easily flip their assets for quality all-star caliber players. They just need a GM that knows how to do that, but I don't think the Cavs GM is good enough.

  17. #195
    Raptors Republic Starter Primer's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The lotto actually does help. Spurs had Robinson before Duncan and he was a lotto pick. Pacers drafted George who was in the lotto. They traded Leonard for Hill and Leonard was in the lotto. Grizzlies traded Pau (who was in the lotto) for Marc. Having lotto picks are great assets because they are cheap and have a lot of potential.

    Cleveland can easily flip a lot of their young assets for all-star type talent. If Minny for example was willing to trade Love, Cleveland could make a great offer. If Cleveland wanted Gay they could have gotten him as they could have offered a better package (Andy V and TT would be an arguably better deal than Jose and Ed for example). If they wanted Harden they could have created a better package then Houston, also in my opinion.

    Drafting TT over JV or Waiters over Barnes are eye scratchers. However they can become better then the Raptors quicker because they have cap space, young assets, and draft picks (all of which are gold in the new CBA).

    Saying all that, I think its too late for the Raptors to start all over. We need to try and find a GM that can work miracles by turning our 'assets' into quality players. JV/Gay/Amir are the core we need to build around, and that's a pretty good start. DeMar could be in there, but I think he's a little to redundant. I would like to see how he does going into next year (he's turning the age where most SG's peak). But by the deadline if he doesn't improve enough he should be moved for someone that works better next to Gay and JV. And that one move could make enough of a difference that you could continue to build on.

    We still don't have a stud though.. and unfortunately every team in the playoffs right now does.. Lebron/George/Duncan/Gasol are the real talented players. Gay/JV could get us there, but JV is still 2-3 years away, and by then Gay is a free agent. But we should see how it plays out.

    However my point to all this is that Cleveland could quickly become better then the Raptors. They have a proven stud in Irving and could easily flip their assets for quality all-star caliber players. They just need a GM that knows how to do that, but I don't think the Cavs GM is good enough.
    Leonard was not a lotto pick. Leonard went 15th.

    Marc was a 2nd round pick (18th). You saying we should get lotto picks so we can later trade them for 2nd rounders?

    For all this talk of Cleveland, the Raptors were still better than them this year. I'll believe that what Cleveland is doing is smart when they actually win more games than they lose. No idea why people are lauding them when the results say otherwise.

  18. #196
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Leonard was not a lotto pick. Leonard went 15th.

    Marc was a 2nd round pick (18th). You saying we should get lotto picks so we can later trade them for 2nd rounders?

    For all this talk of Cleveland, the Raptors were still better than them this year. I'll believe that what Cleveland is doing is smart when they actually win more games than they lose. No idea why people are lauding them when the results say otherwise.
    You do realize that the Cavs are basically losing on purpose for now, right? They've set themselves up to have 5 or 6 lottery picks all under the age of 24 hit their stride around the same time that they'll have tens of millions in cap space to add pieces to the core as well.

    I would trade situations with the Cavs in a nanosecond.

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  20. #197
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're contradicting yourself. One paragraph you're saying you're not prepared for 3-4 years of losing, the next you're saying you prefer the Cavs situation and essentially you're bummed that the Raptors will probably make the playoffs next year. You can't have both. You can't be in the Cavs' current situation without doing what they did.

    That doesn't mean you can't get to where they want to go by doing it another way.

    I don't envy the Cavs. They were perennial losers for years prior to LBJ and they've been losers since. I do want the Raptors to get to the same position that they're trying to get to however...
    I haven't contradicted myself at all.

    I'm not prepared to blow it up now, but 2-3 years ago it should have been done. Maybe even sooner than that. You've been against blowing it up because it's your opinion that the Raptors have tried before and it failed. My argument is that we've never tried, and that blowing it up and rebuilding does work when applied properly.

    To embolden my point, I quoted your own words regarding the doubts you had about Cleveland's moves two years ago. Fast forward two years later and they're in a far more desirable position than we are.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  21. #198
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    I still don't like Cleveland and I don't think they are in a better position. We'll have to see in a few years.

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  23. #199
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I haven't contradicted myself at all.

    I'm not prepared to blow it up now, but 2-3 years ago it should have been done. Maybe even sooner than that. You've been against blowing it up because it's your opinion that the Raptors have tried before and it failed. My argument is that we've never tried, and that blowing it up and rebuilding does work when applied properly.
    Not blowing it up works when performed correctly.

  24. #200
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I still don't like Cleveland and I don't think they are in a better position. We'll have to see in a few years.
    Honestly outside of Kyrie and maybe Thompson their future is full of mediocre to below average draft picks. I'm not including Varejao because i think he might get moved. Dion Waiters is basically Rodney Stucky 2.0, and Zeller is a very bad finisher (worse than his brother) and he shoots a garbage percentage from the floor. If they pick Mclemore they might be able to move Waiters and fill the SG position long term. But if they seriously think that they are done rebuilding then they must be out of their damn mind.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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