I think there seems to be a bit of a gap on the definition of a rebuild. We have seen a few half-assed attempts at a rebuild but they were never carried through. After averaging 30 wins over the past 5 years, how could you not do a proper rebuild?
I'm not going to sit here and say that rebuilding a franchise is easy. But when you lose 242 games over 5 years (sadly, that includes a shortened season) and you're about to enter a season over the cap and have no choice but to field the exact same roster as you did last season, then if alarm bells aren't going off in your head I don't know what else to tell you.
To me, here are the fundamentals to a proper rebuild -- drafting well (having actual draft picks helps too), developing young players, establishing cap and financial flexibility, and then taking advantage of that flexibility in trades and free agency.
Here's an old quote from an old thread (March 2011) about rebuilding:
The first and last line made me chuckle.Cleveland has two lotto picks in a weak draft and there is no telling if either guy they pick will be successful. Then you need to consider the fact that they cast a dark cloud over the roster to get that pick when they took back out of shape Baron Davis and his huge, ridiculous contract. Him alone is going to stunt their growth by killing their flexibility. Right now, they don't have anywhere near the talent the Raptors have. After the draft they still might not be much closer because Colangelo is one of the best drafters in the league and Bargnani will probably be on the move.
I'd much rather have Cleveland's roster today than Toronto's because they did it right. They lost Lebron at the same time we lost Bosh, but instead of retooling like we did, they took on bad contracts in order to gain draft picks and start over. We've lost 151 games since, they've lost 166. Today we have (arguably) better talent, but they have the better outlook. Cleveland heads into this offseason with a future superstar in tow, a lottery pick, and are $22M under the cap. We're heading in with a potential all-star who just had eye surgery, no draft picks, and are $14M over the cap.
You say you don't want to experience any more losing but the current "win now" version of the Raptors finished 14 games under .500 last year, and will be forced to return much of the same lineup next season as well. You don't want to see the team be forced to 'overpay for free agents' in the future yet the current roster is littered with grossly overpaid players.
I don't think it's fair to say that a rebuild hasn't worked in Toronto because a true rebuild has never been attempted. What you've seen is the Bryan Colangelo version of a rebuild. That's where you preach a youth movement and building through the draft out of one side of your mouth but you actually offer big money/long term extensions to vets like Chandler & Nash in back to back summers, trade away first round picks for marginal short term upgrades, sacrifice youth/financial flexibility/draft picks to go "all in" on a player like Rudy Gay, and foolishly burn through your cap space for guys like Landry Fields out of the other. Are you surprised at all that BC's "rebuild" fell flat?
There is so much more that goes into a proper rebuild then getting bad and 'praying' for a high draft pick. You're able to absorb bad deals and get assets in return, develop your young building blocks without a "win now" mandate, and you create other opportunities to improve your team by stockpiling assets/draft picks/financial flexibility.
Cleveland is the team right now that provides the best example. Everyone will point to how "lucky" they were to get Kyrie Irving. It wasn't even their own pick that ended up being number one! It was the Clippers pick, which they acquired in the Baron Davis deal by absorbing his Hindenburg of a contract. They have two more first rounders this year - including the #1 overall - and 4 more first rounders in 2014 and 2015. They also have a glut of cap space over the next two summers, as well as a stable of young, cheap and promising talent. Yes, they've been aided by some amount of inherent luck, but they've also had a real plan that they've committed to in the post Lebron era. They've been patient, they've been calculated, and they've put themselves in a great position moving forward.
Last edited by Fully; Thu May 23rd, 2013 at 10:17 AM.
A good reason why a blow up is not necessary.Even so, the Lowry-Gay-Johnson-Valanciunas-DeRozan five-man core has promise; the Raps outscored opponents by nearly 13 points per 100 possessions — a larger number than Oklahoma City’s league-leading margin — in 343 minutes with those five on the floor, and it’s fun to think of how good that group might do on offense if Valanciunas develops and the Raps dare to flip DeRozan — one of their own — for some real outside shooting.
Definitely agree with the idea of tweaking this. What can some current assets return? Can current assets make a better five man lineup?
This team can be elite if they are managed the right way and if they don't keep running stupid iso's everytime down the floor.
Cleveland won only 24 games this season. We won 34, and with a full season of Gay we might win 40 and make the playoffs next year. But despite that possibility I'd STILL rather have the Cavs' payroll situation and future outlook. They've built their team through the draft (the only mistake so far has been picking Thompson over Valanciunas). They've taken on big contracts (Baron Davis) to get there.
Anyway, I think that despite philosophical differences on this topic, we are where we're at and there really isn't a whole lot of options other than to move forward with what we have. I think for me I've always lamented at the way Colangelo mis-managed this team over the years. My only point was that a proper rebuild does work, if carried through.
With what we have, I still think DeRozan should be moved, not because he's not very good, but because he's the only guy anyone is going to trade for that has value.
You're contradicting yourself. One paragraph you're saying you're not prepared for 3-4 years of losing, the next you're saying you prefer the Cavs situation and essentially you're bummed that the Raptors will probably make the playoffs next year. You can't have both. You can't be in the Cavs' current situation without doing what they did.
That doesn't mean you can't get to where they want to go by doing it another way.
I don't envy the Cavs. They were perennial losers for years prior to LBJ and they've been losers since. I do want the Raptors to get to the same position that they're trying to get to however...
Cleveland can easily flip a lot of their young assets for all-star type talent. If Minny for example was willing to trade Love, Cleveland could make a great offer. If Cleveland wanted Gay they could have gotten him as they could have offered a better package (Andy V and TT would be an arguably better deal than Jose and Ed for example). If they wanted Harden they could have created a better package then Houston, also in my opinion.
Drafting TT over JV or Waiters over Barnes are eye scratchers. However they can become better then the Raptors quicker because they have cap space, young assets, and draft picks (all of which are gold in the new CBA).
Saying all that, I think its too late for the Raptors to start all over. We need to try and find a GM that can work miracles by turning our 'assets' into quality players. JV/Gay/Amir are the core we need to build around, and that's a pretty good start. DeMar could be in there, but I think he's a little to redundant. I would like to see how he does going into next year (he's turning the age where most SG's peak). But by the deadline if he doesn't improve enough he should be moved for someone that works better next to Gay and JV. And that one move could make enough of a difference that you could continue to build on.
We still don't have a stud though.. and unfortunately every team in the playoffs right now does.. Lebron/George/Duncan/Gasol are the real talented players. Gay/JV could get us there, but JV is still 2-3 years away, and by then Gay is a free agent. But we should see how it plays out.
However my point to all this is that Cleveland could quickly become better then the Raptors. They have a proven stud in Irving and could easily flip their assets for quality all-star caliber players. They just need a GM that knows how to do that, but I don't think the Cavs GM is good enough.
Marc was a 2nd round pick (18th). You saying we should get lotto picks so we can later trade them for 2nd rounders?
For all this talk of Cleveland, the Raptors were still better than them this year. I'll believe that what Cleveland is doing is smart when they actually win more games than they lose. No idea why people are lauding them when the results say otherwise.
I would trade situations with the Cavs in a nanosecond.
I'm not prepared to blow it up now, but 2-3 years ago it should have been done. Maybe even sooner than that. You've been against blowing it up because it's your opinion that the Raptors have tried before and it failed. My argument is that we've never tried, and that blowing it up and rebuilding does work when applied properly.
To embolden my point, I quoted your own words regarding the doubts you had about Cleveland's moves two years ago. Fast forward two years later and they're in a far more desirable position than we are.
I still don't like Cleveland and I don't think they are in a better position. We'll have to see in a few years.
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