View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #461
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I think I have talked myself in to a total rebuild on some conditions.

    1) you need to get a top 5 pick this year and one more,
    2) you need to get at least two extra 2014 picks (with own 3),
    3) you need to get back 1-2 players in the mold of Fields or Amir (< 25 years old proven role players that are highly efficient players).
    4) you have extra cap space for 2014-15 season to be a facilitator in deals or take on salary for tax fearing teams (for a price).


    It is not very often a team enters in to a rebuild with the hardest piece already in place - that of course being the C and JV.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #462
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think I have talked myself in to a total rebuild on some conditions.

    1) you need to get a top 5 pick this year and one more,
    2) you need to get at least two extra 2014 picks (with own 3),
    3) you need to get back 1-2 players in the mold of Fields or Amir (< 25 years old proven role players that are highly efficient players).
    4) you have extra cap space for 2014-15 season to be a facilitator in deals or take on salary for tax fearing teams (for a price).


    It is not very often a team enters in to a rebuild with the hardest piece already in place - that of course being the C and JV.
    I was expecting us to try and build around JV in the 2015 offseason when all the big contracts come off the books. The Ujiri hiring just speeds up the process, and also helps to ensure a proper build-around, and not whatever BC would end up doing.

    I'd also love a top 5 pick this year, maybe even top 7. I'm fairly confident Gay could bring back one of those picks in a trade. Not sure if DD could but I suppose it's possible. Ross and JV are the only other guys on the roster that could do it but I wouldn't want to send one of them out. Lowry might be enough to get a first round pick this year as well, but not top 7.

    No idea how we could also get 2 more picks in next years draft, we just don't have any more assets, especially in a draft that is highly valued in 2014. So I'm not sure if we could meet all your points above even if that was the goal.

  3. #463
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I was expecting us to try and build around JV in the 2015 offseason when all the big contracts come off the books. The Ujiri hiring just speeds up the process, and also helps to ensure a proper build-around, and not whatever BC would end up doing.

    I'd also love a top 5 pick this year, maybe even top 7. I'm fairly confident Gay could bring back one of those picks in a trade. Not sure if DD could but I suppose it's possible. Ross and JV are the only other guys on the roster that could do it but I wouldn't want to send one of them out. Lowry might be enough to get a first round pick this year as well, but not top 7.

    No idea how we could also get 2 more picks in next years draft, we just don't have any more assets, especially in a draft that is highly valued in 2014. So I'm not sure if we could meet all your points above even if that was the goal.
    It would involve taking on some pretty bad contracts. I had some ideas in this thread:

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post212359
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #464
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    PGS in the draft to be on the radar

    Burke
    Schroeder
    Larkin
    MCW
    Kbongo

    Lowry is awesome but his emotional state and hot headedness is a concern to me Raps need to draft a guard.

  5. #465
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    PGS in the draft to be on the radar

    Burke
    Schroeder
    Larkin
    MCW
    Kbongo

    Lowry is awesome but his emotional state and hot headedness is a concern to me Raps need to draft a guard.
    Agreed. I would put MCW a little higher though in my opinion, possibly over Larkin, and I think we can include Seth Curry, haven't watched too much about him, but friends and basketball people I talk to are high on him.

    I also feel this team needs to draft another big, if possible, preferably a centre, Aaron Gray is a 3rd stringer at best, and back-up against bigger centres like Hibbert, Dwight, etc. Power forward position will be addressed via trade.

  6. #466
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Lowry could be a good trade chip if Ujiri wants to go that route but ifhes planning on building around Gay then its probably best to keep Lowry around.

  7. #467
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    draft Kabongo regardless with a 2nd rounder for insurance and send him to the D-League as Raps and Ujiri see how Lowry does this season.

  8. #468
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    So much of what needs to change depends on how these guys come back. I might only tinker this summer and save the heavy moves for the tread dead line.

    Lowry according to Casey is already down 15 pounds and has promised to come back in the best shape of his life.

    DeMar was shooting the three ball very effeciently towards the end of the season. Does that keep up?

    Rudy had eye surgery, and might finally be able to fill up the bucket this season. Casey has said he expects 25pts and night and that the offense will be re-tooled around him.

    Landry will have finally had enough time to get that damn elbow right. Let's see if he is any closer to that rookie 3pt mark of 40%

    Terrence Ross had a patchy rookie season. I'd like to see where he is at in the first few months.

    Aside from that...Summer time moves that need to be addressed are still the usual. Backup PG, Kleiza, Bargnani, starting or backup 4.

  9. #469
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    So much of what needs to change depends on how these guys come back. I might only tinker this summer and save the heavy moves for the tread dead line.

    Lowry according to Casey is already down 15 pounds and has promised to come back in the best shape of his life.

    DeMar was shooting the three ball very effeciently towards the end of the season. Does that keep up?

    Rudy had eye surgery, and might finally be able to fill up the bucket this season. Casey has said he expects 25pts and night and that the offense will be re-tooled around him.

    Landry will have finally had enough time to get that damn elbow right. Let's see if he is any closer to that rookie 3pt mark of 40%

    Terrence Ross had a patchy rookie season. I'd like to see where he is at in the first few months.

    Aside from that...Summer time moves that need to be addressed are still the usual. Backup PG, Kleiza, Bargnani, starting or backup 4.
    Can I see a source about Lowry losing 15 pounds and him saying he wants Gay to average 25 points?

  10. #470
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Can I see a source about Lowry losing 15 pounds and him saying he wants Gay to average 25 points?
    http://raptorfan.ca/2013/06/11/break...h-coach-casey/

  11. #471
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    http://raptorfan.ca/2013/06/11/break...h-coach-casey/

    Q: Klow – I loved the guy in Houston, loved the acquisition when it happened, did well in the begging on the year, then tailed off. What happened? and is He STILL the GUY for this team?



    DC …(para phrasing) Lowry has the skill set to make him a great player. Kyle (and he’ll the first to tell you this) was in the worst shape of his career coming into this season. He missed training camp bc of the abdominal injury and even when he came back he wasn’t 100%. Once he went down, Jose came in and we reeled off 5-6 wins in a row. That added to the psyche of Kyle. First injury now his role being compromised. When he returned, he still wasn’t 100% and got fatigued often. There were times when you saw guys blow by him, not because he couldn’t stop them but bc he was out of shape.



    He’s butt heads with alot of coaches in the past… Iavarroni, Mchale etc. Kyle is a competitor and everyone knows that. Him and I have spoke alot and he knows that I NEED him to be at his best at all times. This is a big year for him. I’ve told him that this is his year and his shot. He’s got to be in the best shape of his career and be ready to take this team to the next level. It’s there for him to take. I’ve been texting Kyle alot, and he’s already lost 15 lbs. It’s great news and we are looking for him to be the guy – not just THAT GUY in a contract year. I’ve told KYLE, I’ve been spoiled with PG’s in the past, I had PAYTON and JKIDD in the past.
    Q: Rudy Gay, his fit, what he needs to do this year.



    DC … Rudy is a great talent and has the respect of the league and officials. When he came in, he gave us that BOOST OF CONFIDENCE that we needed. He’s a STAR. He knows the game and knows how to play it. Rudy is a guy who has a ton of confidence on the offensive end. When he gets the ball, and gets in the motion (coach mimicking cross overs), he knows he can score on the opposition. He gets ‘geeked’ up for the matchups vs Lebron, Carmelo etc. What we NEED from Rudy is to do that EVERY NIGHT, against even the 2nd or 3rd tier players whomever they might be. Rudy and I are very close and we talk often. He offers alot of insight on strategy and offers suggestions. I’ve told him, that he needs to TAKE THIS TEAM and MAKE IT HIS. We have talent on this team but no disrespect to our guys, RUDY IS OUR GUY. I’ve told him that we need him to be a different guy than he was in Memphis. There, he could have off nights or the luxury of having Zach and Marc with him to spread the load. HERE, we NEED him to drop 25 points a night and a grab few rebounds. He’s up for it,wants it and wants to be an ALL STAR.

  12. #472
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    One would expect nothing less than Lowry to get his ass in shape this summer - probably the best of his life. Sure he already signed a $24M contract but the next 12 months will decide if he gets another contract at $6+M per year or if he becomes a MLE or less type of player.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #473
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    One would expect nothing less than Lowry to get his ass in shape this summer - probably the best of his life. Sure he already signed a $24M contract but the next 12 months will decide if he gets another contract at $6+M per year or if he becomes a MLE or less type of player.
    I give him a bit of pass considering the injury/surgery etc...he came off last season. It just keeps making me wonder though...and perhaps it should be the focal point of this rebuild/retool discussion....


    NOW or Trade Deadline?

  14. #474
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I give him a bit of pass considering the injury/surgery etc...he came off last season. It just keeps making me wonder though...and perhaps it should be the focal point of this rebuild/retool discussion....

    NOW or Trade Deadline?
    He's never been in 'great' shape in his career, I don't think, which might be a result of or a reason for his injuries over the years. But if there's pressure on him now to get in great shape, that's only good for Toronto.

    As for the question, you trade him whenever the return is the best. If they are rebuilding -- and I believe they probably are leaning that way; if nothing else, it provides Ujiri with limitless options in terms of getting rid of Bargnani -- then he's a very valuable asset this year. I don't think there's any imperative to choose now vs. later. He may up his value by his play, but I think he's a fairly known commodity around the league at this point, and it's really his contract numbers that make him a great asset, anyway, moreso than his talent.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  15. #475
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    So doesn't look like Rudy and Lowry are going anywhere soon.

    Also does make it seem like DD is on his way out. If he actually wants Gay to be 25 point scorer. Those shots are going to come for some where. For Rudy to be that effective his going to need space on the court. Meaning some legit court spacing. Thier need a shooter at the 2 spot. He really made it seem like this offense was going to run through Lowry and Gay with JV being the third option.

    You could also writte off them going after a big if the get in draft. Looks thier set on getting a veteran big to either start or spell JV/AJ. If Casey and Ujiri actually are on the same page doesn't seem like thier thinking rebuilt.

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  17. #476
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    If the Raps rebuild on the fly as it appears to be (or not to be) depending on who you listen to, how about this:

    Golden State: Bargnani, Marion
    Detroit: DeRozan, Kleiza, #13
    Dallas: cap space
    Toronto: Jefferson, Biedrins, Stuckey, #8

    When sending out over $19.6M, teams can take back 125% + 100k.

    Bargnani (11.28), DeRozan (9.5), and Kleiza (4.6) = $25.38M x 125% + 100k = $31.28M

    Jefferson ($11), Biedrins ($9), and Stuckey ($8.5) = $28.5M


    So Golden State turns $21M of deadweight in to something useful;
    Dallas gains cap space for their free agent binge;
    Detroit gets DeRozan for moving down 5 spots in the draft for a PG they don't want, an expiring contract, and still maintains enough cap space to be a free agent player;
    Toronto gets #8, a back up PG, sheds Bargnani, and acquires nearly $30M in expiring contracts or creates a possible $20M cap space for next summer.


    I'd do it.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #477
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    .....If he actually wants Gay to be 25 point scorer. Those shots are going to come for some where. ...
    Rudy could get half way there by taking better shots and moving back up to his 2010-2011 shooting % and get the rest of the way there by getting to the line a couple more times a game. Would be nice if he gave up a few of those long twos for dunk attempts.

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  20. #478
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Rudy could get half way there by taking better shots and moving back up to his 2010-2011 shooting % and get the rest of the way there by getting to the line a couple more times a game. Would be nice if he gave up a few of those long twos for dunk attempts.
    or swapped them for corner 3s.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #479
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If the Raps rebuild on the fly as it appears to be (or not to be) depending on who you listen to, how about this:

    Golden State: Bargnani, Marion
    Detroit: DeRozan, Kleiza, #13
    Dallas: cap space
    Toronto: Jefferson, Biedrins, Stuckey, #8

    When sending out over $19.6M, teams can take back 125% + 100k.

    Bargnani (11.28), DeRozan (9.5), and Kleiza (4.6) = $25.38M x 125% + 100k = $31.28M

    Jefferson ($11), Biedrins ($9), and Stuckey ($8.5) = $28.5M


    So Golden State turns $21M of deadweight in to something useful;
    Dallas gains cap space for their free agent binge;
    Detroit gets DeRozan for moving down 5 spots in the draft for a PG they don't want, an expiring contract, and still maintains enough cap space to be a free agent player;
    Toronto gets #8, a back up PG, sheds Bargnani, and acquires nearly $30M in expiring contracts or creates a possible $20M cap space for next summer.


    I'd do it.
    By the way, this could also be done if the Raptors amnestied Kleiza, declined JL3, luxury tax goes to $71.6m as reported, and Golden State or Detroit took Gray (but would have to be done after July 1st). Going this route would also allow Toronto to do sign and trades. For example, if Toronto secured #8, would Utah have interest in moving up to #8 in a sign and trade for Millsap? Say Millsap and #14 for an expiring (Stuckey/Biedrins/Jefferson) and #8?


    *EDIT* Shit. Sorry, wrong. Raps would be off by $600K and I forgot about the rookie cap hold on the #8 pick.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Jun 13th, 2013 at 08:29 AM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  22. #480
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Coach Casey isn't the only person who wants Gay to drop 25pts. each night, we all do, but what he is asking Gay to do is become an elite, franchise player by putting up those numbers. I really like Gay, and I had hoped when he was traded to Toronto he would have grabbed the opportunity a la James Harden and take that next step, but he didn't. I still like the trade for Toronto, but I don't know what would have changed between last season and this that makes Casey think that Gay can/will take that next step towards being a franchise player.

    Sad part is that I and many people out there think he is capable of it because he has all the tools to do it, but the focus and motor aren't there to do it every night imo.

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