View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #481
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Coach Casey isn't the only person who wants Gay to drop 25pts. each night, we all do, but what he is asking Gay to do is become an elite, franchise player by putting up those numbers. I really like Gay, and I had hoped when he was traded to Toronto he would have grabbed the opportunity a la James Harden and take that next step, but he didn't. I still like the trade for Toronto, but I don't know what would have changed between last season and this that makes Casey think that Gay can/will take that next step towards being a franchise player.

    Sad part is that I and many people out there think he is capable of it because he has all the tools to do it, but the focus and motor aren't there to do it every night imo.
    The only way I can see it happening is if the offense becomes more system based with more post up opportunities... oh and Rudy buys in.

    More ball movement, cuts, open looks versus ISO.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  2. #482
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Rudy has an opportunity here to take a big leap and get the respect he deserves being the leader of this team in his mind hes a superstar/all star player that isnt recognized time to play with a chip on his shoulder and bring it every night. It is true about him kind of scoffing lower level players though if it isnt Lebron Melo or Durant he doesnt go Hard and just plays in "cruise control mode" but that could be because his bask issues this season he played stiff but the Wizards and Cavs games that we lost was silly because they dont have anyone that can bother Rudy...He should dominate.

    IF RUDY WANTS TO BE AN ALL STAR LIKE HE THINKS HE IS, THEN HE HAS TO PLAY HARD EVERY NIGHT like Lebron James says "DON'T PLAY TO THE LEVEL YOUR COMPETITION. IF YOU AS A PLAYER SET THE BAR TOO LOW YOU WILL ONLY TRIP OVER IT, PLAY HARD EVERY NIGHT"

  3. #483
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Coach Casey isn't the only person who wants Gay to drop 25pts. each night, we all do, but what he is asking Gay to do is become an elite, franchise player by putting up those numbers. I really like Gay, and I had hoped when he was traded to Toronto he would have grabbed the opportunity a la James Harden and take that next step, but he didn't. I still like the trade for Toronto, but I don't know what would have changed between last season and this that makes Casey think that Gay can/will take that next step towards being a franchise player.

    Sad part is that I and many people out there think he is capable of it because he has all the tools to do it, but the focus and motor aren't there to do it every night imo.
    He can still do that. He's never truly been the focal point of a team. Even though he took the most shots in Memphis, we all know that wasn't his team. Rudy might surprise some people next year. Of course, this will all depend on what direction management decides to take.

  4. #484
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Michel G wrote: View Post
    He can still do that. He's never truly been the focal point of a team. Even though he took the most shots in Memphis, we all know that wasn't his team. Rudy might surprise some people next year. Of course, this will all depend on what direction management decides to take.
    That is false. He was clearly the focal point in Memphis for the year and a half period between when they traded Pau to the Lakers and the trade they made for Z-Bo. For what it's worth by the way, the team was terrible.

    Even after Randolph was acquired and Marc Gasol emerged, he was still among the league leaders in usage % and shot attempts. He was 7th in the entire league in field goal attempts as recently as last year. Yes, I understand that Memphis transitioned to more of a low post centric offense but let's not kid ourselves by thinking that Rudy's been under constraint all these years and this will be his first chance to spread his wings and show his stuff.

    Expecting a player to change mental characteristics like their "focus" or their "motor" or their "killer instinct" when they are 8 years into their career is setting yourself up for disappointment. At that point, they pretty much are what they are. If I suggested that this upcoming year would be the season when Bargnani finally clues in, I would be laughed at and yet there seems to be plenty of people who are expecting Gay - a player who has been around as long as Bargs - to magically develop that cold blooded mentality after almost a decade in the league. I mean he was guilty of floating on a team that had aspirations of contending these last few seasons... and now it's not going to happen on a 7-11 seed?
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Jun 13th, 2013 at 12:53 PM.

  5. #485
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    That is false. He was clearly the focal point in Memphis for the year and a half period between when they traded Pau to the Lakers and the trade they made for Z-Bo. For what it's worth by the way, the team was terrible.

    Even after Randolph was acquired and Marc Gasol emerged, he was still among the league leaders in usage % and shot attempts. He was 7th in the entire league in field goal attempts as recently as last year. Yes, I understand that Memphis transitioned to more of a low post centric offense but let's not kid ourselves by thinking that Rudy's been under constraint all these years and this will be his first chance to spread his wings and show his stuff.

    Expecting a player to change mental characteristics like their "focus" or their "motor" or their "killer instinct" when they are 8 years into their career is setting yourself up for disappointment. At that point, they pretty much are what they are. If I suggested that this upcoming year would be the season when Bargnani finally clues in, I would be laughed at and yet there seems to be plenty of people who are expecting Gay - a player who has been around as long as Bargs - to magically develop that cold blooded mentality after almost a decade in the league. I mean he was guilty of floating on a team that had aspirations of contending these last few seasons... and now it's not going to happen on a 7-11 seed?
    Well, I guess you're all-knowing and all-seeing. Rudy will never change. From this moment until the end of time, he will remain the same player.

    By the way, plenty of players improved after the age of 26 and after being in the league for a few years. Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Detlef Schrempf (3 all-star games in his 30s), etc.

  6. #486
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Michel G wrote: View Post
    Well, I guess you're all-knowing and all-seeing. Rudy will never change. From this moment until the end of time, he will remain the same player.

    By the way, plenty of players improved after the age of 26 and after being in the league for a few years. Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Detlef Schrempf (3 all-star games in his 30s), etc.
    No need to get petty. Your original claim that Rudy would be the focal point for the first time in his career was wrong so I said so.

    I'm not saying that Rudy won't improve next year - I fully expect him to have a career season if he's in Toronto for the full 82. I just don't think he's going to evolve into this cold blooded assassin that will take the team to the next level. I'm pretty sure he's going to do the same make it look easy routine where he relies on raw talent to score points and takes a game off every week or two. I'm not trying to knock the guy's skill level - it's the compete level that is my concern and that's not the type of thing that changes historically between a player's seventh and eighth seasons.

    The guys you mentioned all enjoyed success later in their 20's and into their 30's based on opportunity, not because of an alteration in their mindset. Rudy has always been given ample playing time and touches since virtually his first year in the league. They are different situations entirely.

  7. #487
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    ...I don't know what would have changed between last season and this that makes Casey think that Gay can/will take that next step towards being a franchise player...
    Eye surgery?

  8. #488
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Slightly off topic. Anyone here think JV could easily slide over and play the 4?

    I was running through scenarios, in which we could get a little more Memphis like and thought if we could poach Pekovic from Minnesota and start him along side Jonas.

    This would go more towards and retool and than a rebuild

  9. #489
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Slightly off topic. Anyone here think JV could easily slide over and play the 4?

    I was running through scenarios, in which we could get a little more Memphis like and thought if we could poach Pekovic from Minnesota and start him along side Jonas.

    This would go more towards and retool and than a rebuild
    No. JV is very obviously a natural 5 and was clearly not suited to matching up against PFs. He's young and pretty athletic. I'm sure if somehow he matches up against one, he won't necessarily get killed, but I don't think he'll ever be quick enough to play it regularly. He was obviously too slow this year, and while he can work on his agilitiy, he's not suddenly going to become quick enough to guard PFs on a nightly basis.

    I don't know man, JV is a big dude. I don't see why you'd move him to the 4 where he's bigger than guys, but slower. At the 5 he projects to be bigger AND faster than most guys.

  10. #490
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I don't know man, JV is a big dude. I don't see why you'd move him to the 4 where he's bigger than guys, but slower. At the 5 he projects to be bigger AND faster than most guys.
    I'm not so much sold on Pek specifically. I was just looking at the teams that gave Miami the most trouble this year. The main thread between all of them were big physical strong bigs smacking them around and keeping them out of the paint. "Boozer, Noah", "West, Hibbert", "Tiago, Duncan". It just got me thinking along those lines.

  11. #491
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'm not so much sold on Pek specifically. I was just looking at the teams that gave Miami the most trouble this year. The main thread between all of them were big physical strong bigs smacking them around and keeping them out of the paint. "Boozer, Noah", "West, Hibbert", "Tiago, Duncan". It just got me thinking along those lines.
    I think my preference is to put a physically stronger 4 next to JV. Amir is a solid player, but he's still too thin in the post. Unfortunately I also don't really see an obvious option along those lines. I doubt Ujiri re-visits a Boozer deal (assuming CHI would). West is most likely going to re-sign in Indy.

    Things don't have to happen right away. That's one thing I hope Ujiri stays true to, and doesn't try to rush building a team. FInd the best guy they can to play with JV and Amir for now. If that strong PF isn't available now, maybe he will be in a year or two.

  12. #492
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I guess file this under retool, from Ryan Wolstats/Toronto Sun chat today:
    http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/16...ba-finals-chat


    See, I would think Masai deals Rudy before DeMar, since I think Rudy could net us more, despite his contract. Why do you think DeMar?
    by Randall 3:52 PM

    @Randall: Because his contract is easier to move, he's younger and not as good. Maybe Gay goes instead, maybe they both stay, but Gay and DeRozan aren't going to win you ballgames because they aren't good enough defensively or from outside
    by Ryan Wolstat 3:53 PM
    how do you think Masai views as Demar as having met him during the draft process back when he was in toronto? does he regard him highly?

    by Tommy 3:53 PM
    @Tommy: I haven't talked to him about DeMar specifically. But he has liked guys like Afflalo and Iguodala in the past who give you a lot more defensively and are threats from outside. Think he'd prefer his swingmen to be more like that. DeMar has his pluses and he's certainly not as harmful to a team as Bargnani, defensively-speaking, but he has to really be rolling offensively to make up for his defensive issues

    Gay is a better defensive player than DeRozan and can be quite good when he wants to be. Imagine a defensive ace who can shoot next to Gay. Ross has every opportunity in the world to make this his as he has the skills.


    raps organization thinks ross lags for parts of game..but considering that was his rookie year, demar tends to do that far more often during the game despite being in 4th year? don't you think ross can supplant him?
    by Parth 4:00 PM

    @Parth: If Ross wants it and works for it, yes, he can supplant DeMar. As a rookie, he didn't really adapt fully to the NBA. The hope is he comes back as a sophomore knowing what needs to be done to utilize his potential. He's got the talent. Now needs to put in the work and get the focus required to be good
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  13. #493
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    I don't agree with Afflalo and Iguodala being threats from outside. They are capable of hitting shots, but I wouldn't venture into saying that they are deep ball threats. Although, I do agree with Masai liking his defensive shooting guards -- Afflalo & Iggy are two of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

    I also think that Ross (as long as he can improve) can be that type of wing Masai likes. He has all the tools in the world (except for long wingspan) to be a good perimeter defender.
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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  14. #494
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with Afflalo and Iguodala being threats from outside. They are capable of hitting shots, but I wouldn't venture into saying that they are deep ball threats. Although, I do agree with Masai liking his defensive shooting guards -- Afflalo & Iggy are two of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

    I also think that Ross (as long as he can improve) can be that type of wing Masai likes. He has all the tools in the world (except for long wingspan) to be a good perimeter defender.
    Based on last year you are correct. But last year Afflalo was asked to do more than he should have.

    He shot 30% from deep after shooting 40% for the previous 4 seasons.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  15. #495
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with Afflalo and Iguodala being threats from outside. They are capable of hitting shots, but I wouldn't venture into saying that they are deep ball threats. Although, I do agree with Masai liking his defensive shooting guards -- Afflalo & Iggy are two of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

    I also think that Ross (as long as he can improve) can be that type of wing Masai likes. He has all the tools in the world (except for long wingspan) to be a good perimeter defender.
    I'm starting to doubt Terrence Ross' 3 point shooting ability. Hopefully he shoots better in summer league. His never been an accurate shooter but, a volume one. His like DD but with 3s.

  16. #496
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I'm starting to doubt Terrence Ross' 3 point shooting ability. Hopefully he shoots better in summer league. His never been an accurate shooter but, a volume one. His like DD but with 3s.
    He shot 35% & 37% in college. I think it's realistic to expect those numbers as he progresses further along his development. He needs to work on squaring his shoulders on the catch & getting his shot up faster as well.
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  17. #497
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Based on last year you are correct. But last year Afflalo was asked to do more than he should have.

    He shot 30% from deep after shooting 40% for the previous 4 seasons.
    You're right, he shot 40% (or close to it) for the past 4 seasons. Those are pretty good %'s from long range. I take my statement back about Afflalo, not so much for Iguodala.
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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  18. #498
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    He shot 35% & 37% in college. I think it's realistic to expect those numbers as he progresses further along his development. He needs to work on squaring his shoulders on the catch & getting his shot up faster as well.
    35% and 37% doesn't really scream out accurate. I would say his more of streaky shooter than an actually a 3 point shooter.

  19. #499
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    ross shot 33% this year didnt he? thats decent for a rookie who got spotty minutes and had terrible college plays ran for him to get his looks.
    though i do agree with the streaky part because he will be a guy who can catch fire from 3.
    needs to get stronger tho

  20. #500
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree about the streaky part -- but averages are averages at the end of the day. I think he misses a lot when he doesn't get his feet set (his balance is off). However, on set shots, he's pretty accurate. It's still early in his NBA career, so I can only assume improvement as he develops.

    He really does need to bulk up big time. He looked every bit of a rookie last year.
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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