View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #601
    Raptors Republic All-Star
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If there ever was a time to tank it is right now to be honest.

    The Raps have the hardest position to secure locked up for 7 or 8 years. JV's floor is a starting C. His ceiling is pretty damn good.

    They have teams who have sucked for years and have valuable assets forcing to become playoff teams. On the flip side, the Raptors have assets who would likely appeal (Gay, Lowry).

    There is a really good draft class coming.

    There are no significant financial commitments after 2 seasons minus DeRozan.


    Looking at how the East is shaping up, if the Raps could get proven NBA talent still on rookie deal combined with more picks and financial flexibility, I would be all over tanking (although in this case I"d call it rebuilding because valuable assets have to come back to ensure you are not leaving yourself 100% susceptible to the bouncing balls).
    Please no more bouncing balls! You wait all year for the draft pick then get screwed in the end.

  2. #602
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Please no more bouncing balls! You wait all year for the draft pick then get screwed in the end.
    And don't forget the coin flips!
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  3. #603
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    http://hoopshype.com/articles/sierra...to-their-teams

    10% Via free agency
    24.6% Via Trade
    65.3% Via Draft

  4. #604
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    i think the easiest way to see this from both sides is that in order for us to try and get a good draft pick this year, we really don't have to do much different than we've been trying to do for the past few years. Play the young guys, see what comes together. What ever bold moves there are to move forward...let's just hold off for one year and do it then.

  5. #605
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    i think the easiest way to see this from both sides is that in order for us to try and get a good draft pick this year, we really don't have to do much different than we've been trying to do for the past few years. Play the young guys, see what comes together. What ever bold moves there are to move forward...let's just hold off for one year and do it then.
    Any bold moves would come from trading Gay, Lowry, and DD. In one year:

    Gay will have a player option and not be eligible for trade until July 1st assuming he picks it up. With new CBA it makes most sense for players to become UFA before signing therefore teams might not give up big assets to watch a player walk (unless you are Milwaukee and send Harris to Orlando). Gay might not take that next step so many, including Casey, are hoping for. The argument that DeRozan is what he is is equally applicable to Gay.

    Lowry will be UFA and is not eligible to be traded after deadline unless it is a S&T. He is one of the few Raptors not on a rookie deal that is actual value. By trading him whatever team gets him would at least have Bird Rights.

    DeRozan will have taken the next step or everyone will finally agree he is what he is - overpaid inefficient one dimensional volume scorer. Right now he at least has potential.


    If the Raps are being bold, I think now is the time to maximize return.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  6. #606
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Even if we had a poorly mismanaged team, we're talking about Cleveland who went 5 of 7 years making it all the way to the conference semifinals, one conference finals appearance and one finals appearance.

    What did you expect, that we tanked and then went on to win 10 championships in a row?
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  8. #607

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    I can play this game too. What happens is we trade rudy gay for some draft picks, rotation player and expirings. We have demar, wiggins and jv as a big three. Then we fill out our bench with the draft picks, tross, and FAs with the cap space. Kinda basic

  9. #608
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    *BUMP*

    Ahhhh, the original thread that ignited numerous threads centering around the Great Raptor Debate of 2013.... to tear it down or not to tear it down, that is the question.


    I think I've moved to the tear it down side with the assumption that every trade is returning valuable assets rather than just clearing cap space. In any trade, you need proven NBA talent and picks (at this point in time I would consider any player picked in 2013 a pick since they have yet to play an NBA minute).

    Too many weaker teams making improvements that are passing the Raptors (Washington) or making it too close to call (Cleveland, Detroit) and too many stronger teams still strong (Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Brooklyn, New York) or weaker but still likely just as good if not better (Milwaukee, Atlanta).




    Looking at Rudy Gay, I'd call up these three teams and offer:

    Detroit - Monroe, Knight, 1st available pick, Stuckey, Charlie V

    Cleveland - Thompson, CJ Miles, rights to Karasev, 2014 pick

    Charlotte - rights to Zeller, Gordon, 2014 Pistons pick (top 8 protected), Portland pick (top 12 protected), right to swap own Raptor pick with theirs

    Of the 3 I like Cleveland best, then Charlotte, then Detroit.
    Just a follow up to this, particularly the bold:

    Essentially the competition for 7-11 has increased significantly and the Raptors were already a 7-11 team as constructed. Seems like 11 could be more of a possibility than 7 right now.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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  11. #609
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    No one should be surprised at the lack of FA movement within the raptors. Just remind yourself the position BC left us in, our assets, and the contracts and costs to go with them.

  12. #610
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting read from the detroit side of things after the JSmith signing

    http://www.pistonpowered.com/2013/07...ng-josh-smith/

    You could argue we were similar teams before. Not very good. Promising young centre. Some other pieces that had promise but no all stars. Some bad contracts.
    So, given that, interesting to see their thoughts on going for it this year.

    As a side note, it does bring up the question of who exactly is going to be the pointguard to lead that big frontcourt

  13. #611
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote [email protected] wrote: View Post
    I can play this game too. What happens is we trade rudy gay for some draft picks, rotation player and expirings. We have demar, wiggins and jv as a big three. Then we fill out our bench with the draft picks, tross, and FAs with the cap space. Kinda basic
    And if you don't get that for Gay?
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  14. #612
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    And if you don't get that for Gay?
    Then you're going to lose with him rather than without him. Like we've said before: Rudy is not a bad player. He's an overpaid one who isn't getting the job done for us, but that's not his fault: that's BC's fault for pretending he was a franchise player when he wasn't one.

    Most of the pro-tankers here were completely opposed to the Detroit offer last week because it was laughably low. That hasn't changed, but the Detroit offer was the start of a good offer: if they had thrown in KCP and a draft pick, say, it might well have been worth considering. Expiring contracts, a good young prospect, and picks: that's the currency we want for our overpaid-but-competent players.

  15. #613
    Raptors Republic Rookie Lefty's Avatar
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    Tanking is the way to go. Why? Because I don't see anyway in hell we end up in the finals, let alone ECF with this core. Say in a year or two down the road, we add another borderline all star. Not cutting it. We are not even sniffing the Larry Obrien with this team. So if we want to win, we gotta go in another direction. DRAFT 2014, has at least five projected franchise players, if not more. Those are very good odds. We have a bigger chance of winning with a franchise cornerstone from next year's draft along with JV, then from our current roster, tweaked and all.

  16. #614
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bad examples.

    Both teams were horribly mismanaged and had no flexibility to make meaningful additions.

    Cap space and exceptions were not used to secure value contracts.

    Trades were shortsighted and each trade made the flexibility less and less.
    Come on Matt, there are what 4 well managed teams in the NBA? Poor management doesn't disprove his fact at all. The only well managed team to win the lottery was San Antonio.

  17. #615
    Raptors Republic All-Star saints91's Avatar
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    I'm opposed to tanking, but if we are going forward with this team as it is, we'll be stuck in no man's land. Bad draft picks, or just scraping into the playoffs.

    I don't think we can really judge Rudy yet, but I think he'll be an all star next year. With training camp, the surgery and an off season with us, he'll be a way better player. He was already pretty impressive.

    What I would like to see is a move for a young PF like Tristan Thompson, or someone of that calibre, that can grow with this team. I think we have the assets to get someone.

    If DeMar, JV, and Ross can improve we'll have a good team going forward.

  18. #616
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Come on Matt, there are what 4 well managed teams in the NBA? Poor management doesn't disprove his fact at all. The only well managed team to win the lottery was San Antonio.
    Boston
    Chicago
    Atlanta
    Indiana
    Miami
    Orlando (Henningan is only in his 2nd year but they are on a very good path)
    Golden State
    Houston
    Clippers
    Lakers (despite shit show of late)
    OKC
    San Antonio
    Utah


    They are all teams that I would say are well managed.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  19. #617
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Boston
    Chicago
    Atlanta
    Indiana
    Miami
    Orlando (Henningan is only in his 2nd year but they are on a very good path)
    Golden State
    Houston
    Clippers
    Lakers (despite shit show of late)
    OKC
    San Antonio
    Utah


    They are all teams that I would say are well managed.
    I'd say you even leave out some well managed teams, e.g. the Warriors are going up and are doing well the last couple of years with their decisions. The jury is now out on Denver, but it was well managed. And, despite all the criticism, the Nets have done exactly what they wanted to do and nobody can deny their relevancy at the moment and their great marketing. I personally think Memphis is not badly managed as well.

  20. #618
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    http://hoopshype.com/articles/sierra...to-their-teams

    10% Via free agency
    24.6% Via Trade
    65.3% Via Draft
    This article looks good enough to "sticky" someplace so it will be readily available whenever this conversation comes up. I haven't read the whole thing, so there may be provisos, but it seems to be a pretty comprehensive breakdown.

  21. #619
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Lefty wrote: View Post
    ... Say in a year or two down the road, we add another borderline all star. Not cutting it. We are not even sniffing the Larry Obrien with this team. So if we want to win, we gotta go in another direction....
    I don't have the time, but it would be interesting to list where the last 6-10 (different) teams that have appeared in the finals game were, three years before their appearances. That is, what position, what roster, and what changes they made to get there. While drafting is the way 65% or all ALL-NBA Team selections made it to their respective teams, did the teams making it to the finals have to trade, or acquire through free agency, the final couple of pieces?

    I suspect yes.

  22. #620
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Come on Matt, there are what 4 well managed teams in the NBA? Poor management doesn't disprove his fact at all. The only well managed team to win the lottery was San Antonio.
    How do you possibly come to that conclusion?

    - managment changes over time. Cleveland has gone through 3 (maybe 4?) GMs since Lebron was drafted.
    - ownership changes, and as such expectations on managers change over time. Golden State sold in 2010, since then how the team has operated changed greatly (may have been a management change aswell although I'm not sure on that)
    - good managers taking good risks can still lose. Even Warren Buffet has plenty of losers in his portfolio.
    - and what the heck was the criteria here? Winning a lottery/drafting a stud and then winning a championship or building a contender is the only thing that defines 'good management'? Reading Matt52's posts doesn't seem to indicate to me that was his criteria - seems that he has a much broader view of 'good management'.

    Poor management may not disprove the stated 'fact'. There may be other reasons to. But I'd point out the 'fact' is not a 'fact' at all. Its at best a very weak correlation that avoids all causation.

    LBF's argument was, even if he didn't mean it as such, making a great pick = losing that player. Which simply avoids the 1000s of different events that take place between those two points. Matt52 (and others) were pointing out a very obvious cause of the result.

    Drafting a stud (in this case Wiggins) doesn't mean he'll leave because Lebron did. Drafting a stud and then doing a crappy job building around/with him will likely greatly increase the chance he'll leave though. But even that argument is universal to all players and all forms of team building. There is no shortage players (studs or not) who will leave their team if their team is doing a crappy job, or even if their team isn't doing a crappy job. No matter if they are drafted, traded for or signed as a free agent.

    What if you draft a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you trade for a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you sign a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you try and build a Detroit like well rounded roster without a stud and it doesn't work?

    I really don't know - what do you do if something doesn't work out? Keep trying or fold up into the fetal position and give up I guess......


    I have no idea why tanking threads need to be become such a bastion of logical fallacies.

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