View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #621
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    ... have no idea why tanking threads need to be become such a bastion of logical fallacies.
    When you are right, you are right.

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  3. #622
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Then you're going to lose with him rather than without him. Like we've said before: Rudy is not a bad player. He's an overpaid one who isn't getting the job done for us, but that's not his fault: that's BC's fault for pretending he was a franchise player when he wasn't one.

    Most of the pro-tankers here were completely opposed to the Detroit offer last week because it was laughably low. That hasn't changed, but the Detroit offer was the start of a good offer: if they had thrown in KCP and a draft pick, say, it might well have been worth considering. Expiring contracts, a good young prospect, and picks: that's the currency we want for our overpaid-but-competent players.
    What are you on about? Colangelo never said anything about him being a franchise player and he's only been here half a season. The way your talking is like he's been here for years..

    On the chance that you do get a "franchise" player. You need more than that.

    The way your talking is like..trade everyone who's "good" on the team because they're not "franchise" players..

    "Gay is over-paid"..So is the entire friggin league!

    He's our best player. You don't just trade away your best player because "he's over-paid".

    There's two ways you attract good players to come here. Championship contention or money. The raptors are not contenders. Therefore, they are going to have to pony up the cash and (over) pay for players, if they hope to go anywhere..

    That's the way the world works. It doesn't matter if your a lawyer, doctor, mechanic, or pro athlete. You want someone good, your going to have to "over" pay them..

    The money does not matter. It's what they give you in return for that money.

    Gay gives us a great (elite?) wing player. Which we have not had in a damn long while..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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  5. #623
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    I think the Raps are neither tanking nor re-tooling. My prediction is that the season would start as is with Lowry, DD, Gay, Amir and JV. They'll put up similar numbers as last year and once the playoff picture gets clearer, there will be a mad fire sale by the trade deadline. I guess people would wonder what happens if the team is actually playing well. That will be a bridge that the team must cross once it gets there.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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  7. #624
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    What are you on about? Colangelo never said anything about him being a franchise player and he's only been here half a season. The way your talking is like he's been here for years..

    On the chance that you do get a "franchise" player. You need more than that.

    The way your talking is like..trade everyone who's "good" on the team because they're not "franchise" players..

    "Gay is over-paid"..So is the entire friggin league!

    He's our best player. You don't just trade away your best player because "he's over-paid".

    There's two ways you attract good players to come here. Championship contention or money. The raptors are not contenders. Therefore, they are going to have to pony up the cash and (over) pay for players, if they hope to go anywhere..

    That's the way the world works. It doesn't matter if your a lawyer, doctor, mechanic, or pro athlete. You want someone good, your going to have to "over" pay them..

    The money does not matter. It's what they give you in return for that money.

    Gay gives us a great (elite?) wing player. Which we have not had in a damn long while..
    its pretty obvious BC brought in gay to get that 'star/franchise' player despite stats saying otherwise. same with how derozan was marketed as the face of the team when bosh left.

    me thinks you don't really understand CBA or proper value of players if you think 'the money does not matter'.
    i think some fans are just desperate for ANY good player that they think once we have a good one, we have to keep them no matter the cost.

  8. #625
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    its pretty obvious BC brought in gay to get that 'star/franchise' player despite stats saying otherwise. same with how derozan was marketed as the face of the team when bosh left.

    me thinks you don't really understand CBA or proper value of players if you think 'the money does not matter'.
    i think some fans are just desperate for ANY good player that they think once we have a good one, we have to keep them no matter the cost.
    Youve seen Gay for half a season.
    Watch out next season when he has had a full training camp and chemistry with Val + Demar.

    One thing that many posters here lack is a regard for consistency and what that does for a Teams' chemistry.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  10. #626
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Youve seen Gay for half a season.
    Watch out next season when he has had a full training camp and chemistry with Val + Demar.

    One thing that many posters here lack is a regard for consistency and what that does for a Teams' chemistry.
    When the pieces fit and the talent is there, yes, absolutely chemistry is important.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #627
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    its pretty obvious BC brought in gay to get that 'star/franchise' player despite stats saying otherwise. same with how derozan was marketed as the face of the team when bosh left.

    me thinks you don't really understand CBA or proper value of players if you think 'the money does not matter'.
    i think some fans are just desperate for ANY good player that they think once we have a good one, we have to keep them no matter the cost.
    I don't have to understand the CBA. I'm not a gm or front office member or whatever.

    I'm a fan. I pay to go see good players play. I don't want to watch Steve fucking Novak, Marcus fucking Camby, Landry fucking Fields, Aaron fucking Gray, etc.

    Nothing against these guys. But...

    I want to see a star player! Rudy is a star player!

    He puts asses in seats. Those guys don't..

    I understand all the other shit like the CBA. But, do I need to or have to? As a fan? Fuck no!
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  12. #628
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    When the pieces fit and the talent is there, yes, absolutely chemistry is important.
    You bring in more good players. You don't ship out the one good one you have. Unless you need to rebuild from scratch and the raptors don't.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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  14. #629
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    When the pieces fit and the talent is there, yes, absolutely chemistry is important.
    Its a catch-22

    How do you know that the pieces fit? Give them time and consistency. How do you know whether to give them time and consistency? You have to know that they fit!

    Id say that there were 2, 5 game winning streaks that showed just how lethal the team can be when clicking. I think there were many more stretches that showed the flaw in our offensive sets and coordination. I think that the talent flourishes when given the chance, and that means giving the talent consistency to allow it to flourish.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  16. #630
    Raptors Republic Rookie Lefty's Avatar
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    The goal is to win championships, you can't do that with Rudy as your star.

  17. #631
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Lefty wrote: View Post
    The goal is to win championships, you can't do that with Rudy as your star.
    You also cant do that by consistently staying at the basement of the league.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  19. #632
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    Quote Lefty wrote: View Post
    The goal is to win championships, you can't do that with Rudy as your star.
    You can't do that with anybody fucking else on the team either.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  20. #633
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Lefty wrote: View Post
    The goal is to win championships, you can't do that with Rudy as your star.
    Not with a salary cap and Rudy getting paid nearly 1/3 of it.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #634
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not with a salary cap and Rudy getting paid nearly 1/3 of it.
    For 1 season...we aren't going to win the championship next year
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  22. #635
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    For 1 season...we aren't going to win the championship next year
    If he picks up his player option, it will be 2 seasons.... and the Raptors won't win the championship in 2014-15 either.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #636
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    How do you possibly come to that conclusion?

    - managment changes over time. Cleveland has gone through 3 (maybe 4?) GMs since Lebron was drafted.
    - ownership changes, and as such expectations on managers change over time. Golden State sold in 2010, since then how the team has operated changed greatly (may have been a management change aswell although I'm not sure on that)
    - good managers taking good risks can still lose. Even Warren Buffet has plenty of losers in his portfolio.
    - and what the heck was the criteria here? Winning a lottery/drafting a stud and then winning a championship or building a contender is the only thing that defines 'good management'? Reading Matt52's posts doesn't seem to indicate to me that was his criteria - seems that he has a much broader view of 'good management'.

    Poor management may not disprove the stated 'fact'. There may be other reasons to. But I'd point out the 'fact' is not a 'fact' at all. Its at best a very weak correlation that avoids all causation.

    LBF's argument was, even if he didn't mean it as such, making a great pick = losing that player. Which simply avoids the 1000s of different events that take place between those two points. Matt52 (and others) were pointing out a very obvious cause of the result.

    Drafting a stud (in this case Wiggins) doesn't mean he'll leave because Lebron did. Drafting a stud and then doing a crappy job building around/with him will likely greatly increase the chance he'll leave though. But even that argument is universal to all players and all forms of team building. There is no shortage players (studs or not) who will leave their team if their team is doing a crappy job, or even if their team isn't doing a crappy job. No matter if they are drafted, traded for or signed as a free agent.

    What if you draft a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you trade for a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you sign a stud and building around him doesn't work out? What if you try and build a Detroit like well rounded roster without a stud and it doesn't work?

    I really don't know - what do you do if something doesn't work out? Keep trying or fold up into the fetal position and give up I guess......


    I have no idea why tanking threads need to be become such a bastion of logical fallacies.
    Cool story bro, didn't know that your name was Matt, Craiger.

    1. I never posted my opinion, I was merely pointing out that blaming management was not a legit point to dissuade his argument.

    Not my opinion, but if we're bringing up people like Warren Buffet-- look at how many times Buffet "wins" his investments (For instance grabbing GE on the cheap, reorganizing them and coming out smelling like roses). Buffet "wins" these kinds of investments regularly. Does Buffets wins make it impossible for other less skilled talents to have investment success?

    Now look how few NBA managers win titles. There are 4 maybe 5 active GM/Presidents who've won titles. Then throw out outlying characters like Dumars who have no right being called good. I guess you could throw in GMs like Bird who are consistently close as well.

    The criteria is titles, or the ability to create championship caliber teams. Winning a draft means nothing. There is zero talent in winning a lottery. The skill is in developing talent, surrounding talent, identifying who to keep and who to let go, knowing when to sell high and when to hold on to a falling talent, scouting for hidden gems... Just like the financial world, there are more bad GMs/Presidents than talented ones, however, there are outliers like Dumars, the Mavs staff, Ainge, etc. Even mediocre managers can learn to be patient, spot opportunities, and have moments of brilliance.

    As far as if talent stays, again, I didn't say anything so I have no clue where you THINK I was coming from. Has nothing to do with what I was saying-- if the draft pick wants money they stay for a portion of the 2nd contract; if they want to win they don't. I've talked about the difficulty in diving before in other threads...it takes years of preparation to dive and recover properly. Most managers are incapable of doing this, however, who's not to say that a bad GM learns from their mistakes.

    What do you do? Again I've made my suggestions in multiple threads. With the current team's construction the Raptors would be better to take the long route, try to make the playoffs multiple years, create value for their current assets and build a reputation as a team that values playing in the playoffs. Use that reputation to cherry pick talented free agents from bad teams who don't make playoffs, and slowly trade certain players when their value is at its height. Yes, this strategy is slow, not glamorous, and takes years to see the rewards beyond 1st round playoff wins...

    Why no to diving? Personal opinion. Both are legit strategies but one shows patience outwardly while another creates a temporary splash that appeases the public but depends on your draft pick being as patient as the GM. How many years did Dirk have to wait for a team to be built around him? To me that seems more likely than Shaq running to Wade. In the modern NBA are any "stars" that patient?

    Just because people disagree with diving doesn't mean they are huddled in a corner, and have quit on sports. What a hilarious illogical reach.

    Pretty sure you're incorrectly using the word fallacy. I am confident that both rationale are extremely sound. The point of debate is that there are multiple legitimate stances. Just because people disagree with you does not make their opinion less thought out. Since the only language in use on this thread is colloquial English I implore you to use the words you choose correctly.

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  25. #637
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If he picks up his player option, it will be 2 seasons.... and the Raptors won't win the championship in 2014-15 either.
    You guys are skipping so many steps. Why are you looking at everything like "that's not going to win us championships."?

    We haven't had a winning season in a while. How about we just work on that?
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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  27. #638
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Cool story bro, didn't know that your name was Matt, Craiger.

    1. I never posted my opinion, I was merely pointing out that blaming management was not a legit point to dissuade his argument.

    Not my opinion, but if we're bringing up people like Warren Buffet-- look at how many times Buffet "wins" his investments (For instance grabbing GE on the cheap, reorganizing them and coming out smelling like roses). Buffet "wins" these kinds of investments regularly. Does Buffets wins make it impossible for other less skilled talents to have investment success?

    Now look how few NBA managers win titles. There are 4 maybe 5 active GM/Presidents who've won titles. Then throw out outlying characters like Dumars who have no right being called good. I guess you could throw in GMs like Bird who are consistently close as well.

    The criteria is titles, or the ability to create championship caliber teams. Winning a draft means nothing. There is zero talent in winning a lottery. The skill is in developing talent, surrounding talent, identifying who to keep and who to let go, knowing when to sell high and when to hold on to a falling talent, scouting for hidden gems... Just like the financial world, there are more bad GMs/Presidents than talented ones, however, there are outliers like Dumars, the Mavs staff, Ainge, etc. Even mediocre managers can learn to be patient, spot opportunities, and have moments of brilliance.

    As far as if talent stays, again, I didn't say anything so I have no clue where you THINK I was coming from. Has nothing to do with what I was saying-- if the draft pick wants money they stay for a portion of the 2nd contract; if they want to win they don't. I've talked about the difficulty in diving before in other threads...it takes years of preparation to dive and recover properly. Most managers are incapable of doing this, however, who's not to say that a bad GM learns from their mistakes.

    What do you do? Again I've made my suggestions in multiple threads. With the current team's construction the Raptors would be better to take the long route, try to make the playoffs multiple years, create value for their current assets and build a reputation as a team that values playing in the playoffs. Use that reputation to cherry pick talented free agents from bad teams who don't make playoffs, and slowly trade certain players when their value is at its height. Yes, this strategy is slow, not glamorous, and takes years to see the rewards beyond 1st round playoff wins...

    Why no to diving? Personal opinion. Both are legit strategies but one shows patience outwardly while another creates a temporary splash that appeases the public but depends on your draft pick being as patient as the GM. How many years did Dirk have to wait for a team to be built around him? To me that seems more likely than Shaq running to Wade. In the modern NBA are any "stars" that patient?

    Just because people disagree with diving doesn't mean they are huddled in a corner, and have quit on sports. What a hilarious illogical reach.

    Pretty sure you're incorrectly using the word fallacy. I am confident that both rationale are extremely sound. The point of debate is that there are multiple legitimate stances. Just because people disagree with you does not make their opinion less thought out. Since the only language in use on this thread is colloquial English I implore you to use the words you choose correctly.
    What is your problem?

    You bring a shit argument to a discussion and it gets rejected and you can't take it?

    Here are two choices:
    1) Grow a set, or
    2) Put some thought in to your posts first rather than after.

    Nice post, btw.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  28. #639
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    Slightly off topic....Warren Buffet/Berkshire typically doesnt do "small" buys. He often gets a premium price on valuations simply because most of his investments are in the billion$ category (companies sell their holdings directly to him). So, right off the bat he is at first or second base in terms of a positive payout when he sells ...better than the rest of us schlubs. Also he times the market quite well alongwith competitive advantages. In basketball terms eg. this would be the proper use of analytics to choose and exchange your assets in a manner superior to your competitors. The Celtics and the Spurs are two who are v. good at this and hence why so many of their assts./protoges are hired around the league.

  29. #640
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Looking at Rudy Gay, I'd call up these three teams and offer:
    Detroit - Monroe, Knight, 1st available pick, Stuckey, Charlie V
    Cleveland - Thompson, CJ Miles, rights to Karasev, 2014 pick
    Charlotte - rights to Zeller, Gordon, 2014 Pistons pick (top 8 protected), Portland pick (top 12 protected), right to swap own Raptor pick with theirs

    Of the 3 I like Cleveland best, then Charlotte, then Detroit.
    WRT Detroit deal -would you be willing to add Kyle?
    Charlotte: MKG & Gordon for Gay? Everybody happy?

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