View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #641
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    You bring in more good players. You don't ship out the one good one you have. Unless you need to rebuild from scratch and the raptors don't.
    Excellent point. Instead of trading our "good players" for cap space or prospects, why don't we send our "shitty player" for good players?
    Anybody: Kleiza for Barnes; Fields for Durant?
    Unfortunately there are only so many David Kahns & Ted Stepiens in NBA.

  2. #642
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    You guys are skipping so many steps. Why are you looking at everything like "that's not going to win us championships."?

    We haven't had a winning season in a while. How about we just work on that?
    Exactly. Lets learn to walk before we can run. Besides, there is nothing like a bit of playoff success for development of young guys (Demars, Ross, Val...).

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  4. #643
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    Excellent point. Instead of trading our "good players" for cap space or prospects, why don't we send our "shitty player" for good players?
    Anybody: Kleiza for Barnes; Fields for Durant?
    Unfortunately there are only so many David Kahns & Ted Stepiens in NBA.
    Cap space towards WHAT??????

    NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

    You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

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  5. #644
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    Exactly. Lets learn to walk before we can run. Besides, there is nothing like a bit of playoff success for development of young guys (Demars, Ross, Val...).
    I could not agree more.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  6. #645
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Cap space towards WHAT??????

    NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

    You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.
    You can use cap space for more than free agents.

  7. #646
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You can use cap space for more than free agents.
    Like what? I hope you aren't thinking Sign -and-trades because that is the same fucking thing as free agents. They have to agree to come to your team..

    Look, Here is the entire raptors transaction history. Go through the free agent singings since the inaugural season..

    http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/tea...n_History/2012
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  8. #647
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Cap space towards WHAT??????

    NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

    You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.
    On the other hand, if he likes the team /organization, and playing with his best friend (Lowry), I wouldn't be surprised if he goes the Iggy route next year and forgoes his 1 big $ year left to sign a 4-5 year deal at lower dollars, but does it with the Raps.

    AND I would add: all the "sell-off-everybody-but-JV-tank-and-pray-for high-school-kids-being-superstars" proponents keep talking about championships being the goal. Something to consider: to compete for a championship, a team has to go through teams with LeBron, KD, Paul George playing SF. Rudy is one of the very few SFs in the league with the size, length, and athletic ability, to be capable of reasonable coverage of these guys, and even making them work on D. That's a very big commodity, but people want to sell him for garbage expirings and high school hopes. Makes no sense.

  9. #648
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    People forget but this is a brand new organization now. You can't look back at old signings and draft picks to make sense of the future, everyone involved in it is gone.

  10. #649
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    Man say what you want about Detroit but they have some good young talent.

    Forgot they have guys like Middleton and English on the wing.

    If they got a pg like say... Billups, they could do some things. If I'm them and I want to win now I'd trade some of that young talent for a proven wing. People slam the Josh Smith signing but I actually like it. They can now trade Monroe for a guy like oh I dunno... Rudy Gay and have a pretty strong club.

  11. #650
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Its a catch-22

    How do you know that the pieces fit? Give them time and consistency. How do you know whether to give them time and consistency? You have to know that they fit!

    Id say that there were 2, 5 game winning streaks that showed just how lethal the team can be when clicking. I think there were many more stretches that showed the flaw in our offensive sets and coordination. I think that the talent flourishes when given the chance, and that means giving the talent consistency to allow it to flourish.
    yah totally. we should have given bargnani another 10 years but we gave him up too fast. how do we win anything if we don't give people the chance to fluorish??

    2 5 game winning streaks? you mean at the end of the 4-19 start where we faced a bunch of shitty teams at home? or the stretch where JL and AA magically had some fluke good games to defeat the knicks (and lets face it, we would have lost those if our usual shitty players didn't all of a sudden have amazing games. both of which aren't even going to be on the team anymore). whats the other game winning streak? the last run at the end of the season where we 'beat' a bunch of playoff teams?'

    the argument of just "run with the mediocre team we have because NO ONE will sign here" is useless and ridiculous.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Sun Jul 7th, 2013 at 06:03 PM.

  12. #651
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    yah totally. we should have given bargnani another 10 years but we gave him up too fast. how do we win anything if we don't give people the chance to fluorish??

    2 5 game winning streaks? you mean at the end of the 4-19 start where we faced a bunch of shitty teams at home? or the stretch where JL and AA magically had some fluke good games to defeat the knicks (and lets face it, we would have lost those if our usual shitty players didn't all of a sudden have amazing games. both of which aren't even going to be on the team anymore). whats the other game winning streak? the last run at the end of the season where we 'beat' a bunch of playoff teams?'

    the argument of just "run with the mediocre team we have because NO ONE will sign here" is useless and ridiculous.
    The bold: apparently some people get a free ticket to being an asshole. Whose ass do I have to refuse to kiss to get one of those?

    The rest: You seem to miss the point. How many games has a starting unit of Lowry, DD, Gay, Amir, JV had a chance to play together, never mind have a summer and a training camp to work together? The point is to give these guys, ALL YOUNG, a chance to build some chemistry and get to know each other, and there might just be a damn good unit there.

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  14. #652
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    yah totally. we should have given bargnani another 10 years but we gave him up too fast. how do we win anything if we don't give people the chance to fluorish??

    2 5 game winning streaks? you mean at the end of the 4-19 start where we faced a bunch of shitty teams at home? or the stretch where JL and AA magically had some fluke good games to defeat the knicks (and lets face it, we would have lost those if our usual shitty players didn't all of a sudden have amazing games. both of which aren't even going to be on the team anymore). whats the other game winning streak? the last run at the end of the season where we 'beat' a bunch of playoff teams?'

    the argument of just "run with the mediocre team we have because NO ONE will sign here" is useless and ridiculous.
    I dont understand some posters urge to become antagonizing.

    But your first point marks your ignorance. Chemistry is a team thing, and we havent built a team that last more than 1 season together in 7 years. Basketball is a team game, and the success of its parts are directly relative to the cohesiveness of the team as a whole. Bargnani was a lazy team player, failing in all things systematic, specifically on defense. His man-man was never a problem, it is his weak side rotations, and utter lazyness as a help defender/rebounder. If we have young players willing to grow their careers together, then they are willing to buy into the system, and grow into a mechanized whole. One which no longer depends on ISO after ISO on offense, and broken down Defense (what we saw last year).

    Your dismissal of 2 5 game winning streaks is sad. Since the Raptors havent won 5 games in a row for more than 5 years. And dont tell me we didnt have 'easy' teams lined up in 5 years. This year we saw glimpses of a very talented team.

    Obviously we believe this team has potential that is more than just mediocre, and can make some noise as it grows up. Thus putting the Raps on the map of relevancy, capable to attracting good players and staff.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  15. #653
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Like what? I hope you aren't thinking Sign -and-trades because that is the same fucking thing as free agents. They have to agree to come to your team..

    Look, Here is the entire raptors transaction history. Go through the free agent singings since the inaugural season..

    http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/tea...n_History/2012
    Trades?

    How do you think Utah took on $25M in contracts only sending back $800k?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #654
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Trades?

    How do you think Utah took on $25M in contracts only sending back $800k?
    Hold up.. Trades? That's been my entire point..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  17. #655
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Hold up.. Trades? That's been my entire point..
    Cap space is valuable for trades as well. You said earlier today you don't know the CBA and you are a fan, right? All I'm saying is cap space is not just about free agents. If you are above the salary cap you have to abide by rules for trades. It varies between 150%+$100K and $5M and $125%+$100k depending on trading teams circumstances. If you are under the cap you can make crazy unbalanced financial trades depending on how much cap space you have. So when you said:

    Cap space towards WHAT??????

    NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

    You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.

    That is why I said: Trades?

    Cap space is more than about free agency.


    If you understood all this already I apologize and somewhere along the way I obviously missed something.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #656
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I dont understand some posters urge to become antagonizing.

    But your first point marks your ignorance. Chemistry is a team thing, and we havent built a team that last more than 1 season together in 7 years. Basketball is a team game, and the success of its parts are directly relative to the cohesiveness of the team as a whole. Bargnani was a lazy team player, failing in all things systematic, specifically on defense. His man-man was never a problem, it is his weak side rotations, and utter lazyness as a help defender/rebounder. If we have young players willing to grow their careers together, then they are willing to buy into the system, and grow into a mechanized whole. One which no longer depends on ISO after ISO on offense, and broken down Defense (what we saw last year).

    Your dismissal of 2 5 game winning streaks is sad. Since the Raptors havent won 5 games in a row for more than 5 years. And dont tell me we didnt have 'easy' teams lined up in 5 years. This year we saw glimpses of a very talented team.

    Obviously we believe this team has potential that is more than just mediocre, and can make some noise as it grows up. Thus putting the Raps on the map of relevancy, capable to attracting good players and staff.
    I'm totally with you and seems like Massai is with you.

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  20. #657
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Cap space is valuable for trades as well. You said earlier today you don't know the CBA and you are a fan, right? All I'm saying is cap space is not just about free agents. If you are above the salary cap you have to abide by rules for trades. It varies between 150%+$100K and $5M and $125%+$100k depending on trading teams circumstances. If you are under the cap you can make crazy unbalanced financial trades depending on how much cap space you have. So when you said:




    That is why I said: Trades?

    Cap space is more than about free agency.


    If you understood all this already I apologize and somewhere along the way I obviously missed something.
    No, I understand the CBA. The basics,anyway. I was just making the point that as a fan, it's really not my job to understand the CBA. Just to buy the ticket.

    Earlier I snapped and may have not completely thought about making my point clear..You are thinking of trades. So, am I. But, I'm pretty sure my earlier post was not directed at you. So, I was questioning the guy I had quoted. At this point, I don't remember whom that was. If it was you, my apologies.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  21. #658
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Cap space towards WHAT??????

    NOBODY IS FUCKING COMING HERE! Don't you see??

    You think if Rudy fucking Gay was a free agent that he would sign here? I highly fucking doubt it.
    First off, free agents often sign with marginal teams. I have no idea why Carl Landry decided to go back to Sacramento, but he did. The point is: stop being a marginal team. MLSE has publicly signalled willingness to go into the tax for a serious contending team and that matters; we're a very large market, the income tax situation for players is massively improved from the 1990s (when it was awful), and after twenty years, players love being here and everybody knows Toronto is a fun place to live with extremely dedicated fans (CB4 didn't leave because he didn't like the city; he left because he wanted to play with his friends on a contender, rather than be the big fish in an inept pond).

    We've already taken the first important step by getting quality management pieces in place. Our management has been a league joke for over a decade, and nobody wants to sign with a team run by idiots. Leiweke and Ujiri were key steps to getting front office credibility, because serious players aren't going to sign with a team that overpays Landry Fields in the hopes of somehow overpaying a way-beyond-his-prime Steve Nash.

    But to answer your question: no. I agree with you that Rudy would not sign here as a free agent, had he had the opportunity, because free agents chase money and talent, and we only have one of those.

  22. #659
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    First off, free agents often sign with marginal teams. I have no idea why Carl Landry decided to go back to Sacramento, but he did. The point is: stop being a marginal team. MLSE has publicly signalled willingness to go into the tax for a serious contending team and that matters; we're a very large market, the income tax situation for players is massively improved from the 1990s (when it was awful), and after twenty years, players love being here and everybody knows Toronto is a fun place to live with extremely dedicated fans (CB4 didn't leave because he didn't like the city; he left because he wanted to play with his friends on a contender, rather than be the big fish in an inept pond).

    We've already taken the first important step by getting quality management pieces in place. Our management has been a league joke for over a decade, and nobody wants to sign with a team run by idiots. Leiweke and Ujiri were key steps to getting front office credibility, because serious players aren't going to sign with a team that overpays Landry Fields in the hopes of somehow overpaying a way-beyond-his-prime Steve Nash.

    But to answer your question: no. I agree with you that Rudy would not sign here as a free agent, had he had the opportunity, because free agents chase money and talent, and we only have one of those.
    Two points on the bold:

    1) Sacramento has new ownership, management, and coaches. I don't think he is going back to the same situation and if anything it might speak to changes underway.... i'm just guessing though.

    2) Absolutely agree on marginal team. Signing Landry would have been another in a long list of wastes: Kapono, Fields, Kleiza....
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #660
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    We need to keep Gay..he is over-paid, yes. But, we need him.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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