View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #661
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Cool story bro, didn't know that your name was Matt, Craiger.

    1. I never posted my opinion, I was merely pointing out that blaming management was not a legit point to dissuade his argument.

    Not my opinion, but if we're bringing up people like Warren Buffet-- look at how many times Buffet "wins" his investments (For instance grabbing GE on the cheap, reorganizing them and coming out smelling like roses). Buffet "wins" these kinds of investments regularly. Does Buffets wins make it impossible for other less skilled talents to have investment success?

    Now look how few NBA managers win titles. There are 4 maybe 5 active GM/Presidents who've won titles. Then throw out outlying characters like Dumars who have no right being called good. I guess you could throw in GMs like Bird who are consistently close as well.

    The criteria is titles, or the ability to create championship caliber teams. Winning a draft means nothing. There is zero talent in winning a lottery. The skill is in developing talent, surrounding talent, identifying who to keep and who to let go, knowing when to sell high and when to hold on to a falling talent, scouting for hidden gems... Just like the financial world, there are more bad GMs/Presidents than talented ones, however, there are outliers like Dumars, the Mavs staff, Ainge, etc. Even mediocre managers can learn to be patient, spot opportunities, and have moments of brilliance.

    As far as if talent stays, again, I didn't say anything so I have no clue where you THINK I was coming from. Has nothing to do with what I was saying-- if the draft pick wants money they stay for a portion of the 2nd contract; if they want to win they don't. I've talked about the difficulty in diving before in other threads...it takes years of preparation to dive and recover properly. Most managers are incapable of doing this, however, who's not to say that a bad GM learns from their mistakes.

    What do you do? Again I've made my suggestions in multiple threads. With the current team's construction the Raptors would be better to take the long route, try to make the playoffs multiple years, create value for their current assets and build a reputation as a team that values playing in the playoffs. Use that reputation to cherry pick talented free agents from bad teams who don't make playoffs, and slowly trade certain players when their value is at its height. Yes, this strategy is slow, not glamorous, and takes years to see the rewards beyond 1st round playoff wins...

    Why no to diving? Personal opinion. Both are legit strategies but one shows patience outwardly while another creates a temporary splash that appeases the public but depends on your draft pick being as patient as the GM. How many years did Dirk have to wait for a team to be built around him? To me that seems more likely than Shaq running to Wade. In the modern NBA are any "stars" that patient?

    Just because people disagree with diving doesn't mean they are huddled in a corner, and have quit on sports. What a hilarious illogical reach.

    Pretty sure you're incorrectly using the word fallacy. I am confident that both rationale are extremely sound. The point of debate is that there are multiple legitimate stances. Just because people disagree with you does not make their opinion less thought out. Since the only language in use on this thread is colloquial English I implore you to use the words you choose correctly.
    I guess this is the result of sticking my nose inside the bastions walls.

    Bold #1 - the hilarious illogical reach is coming to the conclusion that "people who disagree with diving are huddled in the corner and have to quit on sports" from what I said. Much like most of the paragraphs above it.

    Bold #2 - if you came to the conclusion that I was somehow saying because your opinion was different its less thought out, you are either completely missing the point or are being intentionally ignorant (see bold #1). How you form and argument is just as important as what you argue, no matter what form of language you use.

    And yes fallacy was the right word.

  2. #662
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I've been reading all the posts but not posting because I think we were having more constructive discussions on this over a month ago (~50 pages ago?), and that was when BC was still GM. Back then we didn't have any of the "I just want to win some games" people joining in.

    I think we should add a tagline to each poster so we have an idea of where they're coming from. It's kind of a waste of time to have one guy who wants to see the team build a winning franchise debate with a guy who is just happy to watch an exciting team, on the merits of rebuilding vs retooling.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  3. #663
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    At this point I don't think it's going to matter if we actively re-tool or rebuild, we are likely a lottery team next season anyway.

  4. #664
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I've been reading all the posts but not posting because I think we were having more constructive discussions on this over a month ago (~50 pages ago?), and that was when BC was still GM. Back then we didn't have any of the "I just want to win some games" people joining in.

    I think we should add a tagline to each poster so we have an idea of where they're coming from. It's kind of a waste of time to have one guy who wants to see the team build a winning franchise debate with a guy who is just happy to watch an exciting team, on the merits of rebuilding vs retooling.
    An exciting team is a winning franchise.. awinning franchise is an exciting team.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  5. #665
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter


    Nothing new hear but great read nonetheless.


    Good piece by Koreen summing up Raps current situation and paths they could take.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #666
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...medium=twitter


    Nothing new hear but great read nonetheless.


    Good piece by Koreen summing up Raps current situation and paths they could take.
    Good read. Thanks Matt

  7. #667
    Raptors Republic Superstar lilmamba_'s Avatar
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    i don't see the reason to move gay, yes we can get some good talent for him and his contract might be a bit big, but who cares. before we got him we lost games because we never had a 'closer', or the respect from the officials(remeber the time when we never got calls ). Rudy gay gives us those two points at the end of the games. without him demar cant take on that role because, everyone double teams him, and the second option was andrea (actually it was the other way around) since rudy's here he makes a big difference, unless we can get player who can close out games im not up to trading rudy.
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
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  8. #668
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Default Time for Raptors to pick a future article

    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...pick-a-future/

    Very good article overall. It examines our team from three different vantage points and sums up our options going forward. All three conclusions are legit, I’d argue some minor assessments, but that’s not the main point. All three models (and all others not listed in this article) involve risks; however, the preferred way forward is not necessarily the one that involves the least amount of risk… Looking around the recent moves around the league and taking into account the contracts ($ /length) certain players demand (and mostly achieve) – near max contracts for semi-talent, maybe the way forward is a hybrid of all three listed models. I mean, I’d not like to see us signing any of the guys involved in recent rumors and definitely not for the money they’ve negotiated! Having the financial flexibility (get rid of current bad contracts) to sign cheap, unproven potential is the key! Players like TRob that could be obtained on the cheap and ready to explode are the most important going forward but that implies patience… and some luck, just like any other “model”. Unfortunately, we are left with hopes for the likes of Julyan Stone for now, which means even more patience until we get rid of the numerous bad contracts on this team. And who knows, maybe Stone is a legit second unit PG… Reading the angry daily comments and listening to podcasts that demand Uriji to overhaul the entire roster in the first week on the job (with a claim that Raps fans have been living in misery for years… and the lack of signs where we are headed ) makes me think that someone here is going to get mad really quickly. Just look at the conclusions of all three models in the referenced article – we are positioned “Averagely” at best! It is going to take several years to become a real contender. Be patient, people.

    Side note: Rockets GM, Daryl Morey is top notch! Just quickly go over his moves in Houston:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...oreyda99x.html

    He has made numerous amazing deals on the way to clearing cap space and assembling picks plus young talent, prior to the Harden trade last year. The notion that Houston was in a “nightmare situation” is wrong. There are a lot worse current “nightmares” in the league!

    p.s.
    How good does Presti look now after Martin has walked and Harden has exploded?! Can’t believe OKC could not find the money to keep the beard! In hind sight, Presti should have amnestied Perk, traded Ibaka or mortgaged his own salary… just to keep Harden!

    p.p.s.
    did not see you post a link first, Matt
    Last edited by vino; Tue Jul 9th, 2013 at 12:46 PM.

  9. #669
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    That was a very difficult issue to settle...prime one being a wealth of riches. They theoretically had 4 great players (KD, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden) who all wanted to be paid. In addition there was Perkins who during this period was extended @ a good number. As we know there are cap limitations and in spite of this if I remember a good offer was made to Harden which he rejected leading me to believe there were other issues....wanting to be a starter/getting the ball more. Too bad.

  10. #670
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    That was a very difficult issue to settle...prime one being a wealth of riches. They theoretically had 4 great players (KD, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden) who all wanted to be paid. In addition there was Perkins who during this period was extended @ a good number. As we know there are cap limitations and in spite of this if I remember a good offer was made to Harden which he rejected leading me to believe there were other issues....wanting to be a starter/getting the ball more. Too bad.
    I have confidence that should Toronto ever land those types of talent keeping them will not be an issue given the need for content by ownership and the fact they are filthy wealthy.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #671
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I have confidence that should Toronto ever land those types of talent keeping them will not be an issue given the need for content by ownership and the fact they are filthy wealthy.
    Yes with TL talking up the spending. But even then with the new cba tax #s, even bringing the LAL into line (they are amnestying Metta @ 7.7 and saving 15 on taxes!) this will not be done as frivolously as in the past. The only blunt knife in the drawer will be Dolan with Prokhorov possibly a close second ...but then they have their personal feud as fuel....I hope they bludgeon each other with their dumb/shortsighted moves. I get the impression the cba is starting to work as intended putting an emphasis on scouting and making teams pay for their mistakes (as we are doing right now being nearly capped out and the overpaid personnel).

  12. #672
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Yes with TL talking up the spending. But even then with the new cba tax #s, even bringing the LAL into line (they are amnestying Metta @ 7.7 and saving 15 on taxes!) this will not be done as frivolously as in the past. The only blunt knife in the drawer will be Dolan with Prokhorov possibly a close second ...but then they have their personal feud as fuel....I hope they bludgeon each other with their dumb/shortsighted moves. I get the impression the cba is starting to work as intended putting an emphasis on scouting and making teams pay for their mistakes (as we are doing right now being nearly capped out and the overpaid personnel).
    But keep in mind the Lakers are owned by the Buss family and their predominant source of income is the Lakers. Just from Jerry Buss' passing they are talking about selling an ownership stake to cover the estate taxes on the team. Yes, they have a huge TV deal but I think a family run business is going to have a different mindset than two multi-billion dollar corporations that have their hand in virtually every Canadian's pocket in one way or another.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #673
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Infinity - on - 5: Whats next? (RR Main Page Rip Off)

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...-5-whats-next/

    Those main page guys have some pretty good ideas for threads. I'm blatantly going to steal the questions straight from the latest post on the main page.

    A lot of the questions and ideas are topics that have been going on for quite some time throughout the main page, forums, media, Twitter, and in person.


    Here goes:

    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?


    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?


    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?


    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?


    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #674
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
    Rebuild is continuous, you never stop so you shouldn't have to start it. We need to balance our roster better and acquire better shooters. I'm more inclined to tear apart the roster, so for the purpose of this question "rebuild".

    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
    No one is untradeable. I'd trade JV for the right package, but he's the closest thing to untouchable.

    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
    Trades are necessary to even be able to consider free agency. Assets are needed to speed up the draft progress. Therefore, trades are the logical next step.

    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
    Current team as is, post-Barg's trade and Stone signing with no further moves, is likely somewhere between 7th-10th in the east. Health has to be a big concern especially at the PG spot with only the unproven Stone as a back-up to Lowry.

    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
    Nope. Not a chance.

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  16. #675
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...-5-whats-next/

    Those main page guys have some pretty good ideas for threads. I'm blatantly going to steal the questions straight from the latest post on the main page.

    A lot of the questions and ideas are topics that have been going on for quite some time throughout the main page, forums, media, Twitter, and in person.


    Here goes:

    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?


    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?


    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?


    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?


    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

    1. No. They have some good pieces here. They need to build their team around Gay and JV.

    2. JV

    3. All of the Above.

    4. 6-8 seed in the East.

    5. Yes.

    Not in favour of tanking because of the risk. Raps could finish with the worst record in the league and there's a good chance, actually a great chance they don't get Wiggins.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  17. #676
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    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

    Undoubtedly, yes, since they never really have. People equate the Raptors having sucked for years with a "rebuild," but we didn't actually rebuild - it was a lot of BC running-in-place and little more. This is not a competitive playoff team as built; it has a lot of pieces that might fit generally in competitive playoff teams, but it is not a cohesive unit: we don't have many good defenders, we don't have many good perimeter shooters, etc. Basically if it is something you want in today's NBA other than Jonas, we're lacking. We have a lot of good go-to-the-rim players, but a team doesn't need a surplus of those.

    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?

    Given that Jonas is the obvious answer to this question, duh, but let's say Amir Johnson as well because Amir is a good, young, efficient player with a reasonable contract. He's not perfect (he's a bit undersized for a power forward and makes mistakes on D) but he's a good player and he loves Toronto and the fans love him. He's the heart of the team and you don't trade that for anything less than NBA gold, which we won't get for him.

    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?

    Combination of trades and the draft in the short term. Free agency is not presently an option because we're capped out, and if you trade away one piece to make room you're rebuilding the team anyway. If we trade Rudy away we create a ton of cap space, which can matter for sign-and-trades and key pieces in free agency.

    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?

    Right now? Probably the 7th playoff seed. Tops. And there's no guarantee we even get there.

    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

    Give me exciting young players to watch - players that make me think this team has an actual future - and the answer is yes. Probably I would be MORE inclined.

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  19. #677
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?

    Yes. The Raptors are a mess when looking at the landscape. No financial flexibility for 2 years unless one of the guys you are planning on competing with opts out (Bosh Part Deux). Gay, DD, and Fields are about 60% of the salary cap. All the main pieces on the team have flaws in one way or another. Outside of JV and Ross, any chance of improvement lies in players who have been in the league for 4+ years to become something up until now they have not been - Bargnani whispers in the wind anyone?

    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?

    JV. The Raptors have the hardest position in the league locked up for 7-8 more years. He comes from a country that eats, sleeps, and breathes basketball and has shown he has the same traits. As he matures the sky really is the limit.

    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?

    Trades. Hopefully the Raptors can exchange over priced pieces for value and picks. Much easier said than done but there are teams out there that are throwing big contracts at names. Well, the Raptors have some names.

    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?

    First round exit at best. 10-13th seed in the East most likely. The only two teams that can confidently be said are worse than Toronto moving forward are Orlando and Philadelphia.

    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

    No. I would be just as much if not more. I'd rather watch development than mediocrity.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #678
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    1. Yes, they do. As of today, the team is a 7-11 seed but has spent all of their available cap room and mortgaged a good part of their future to do so. That's ugly, and the avenues to take the next step in improvement don't appear to be there.

    2. JV obviously.

    3. Trades this summer and next season. Draft oriented next summer.

    4. 7-11 seed next year.

    5. No. I don't see a big difference in entertainment value between watching a rebuilding product and a treadmill team.

  21. #679
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    Axel above was pretty succint and I agree. As I have written before I would be quite happy being in a Boston position going forward. Never really had the confidence in the BC rebuild journey the last few years. Even now, we have yet to see even part of MU's hand and in a masochistic way it is quite exciting. I hope he doesnt disappoint with the next major move.

    ps...could we have a revision in the poll categs.? I hate the "Tanker" connotation. Suggestion: Rebuilder or even Rebuilder/Tanker. Thanks.

  22. #680
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...-5-whats-next/


    Here goes:

    1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?


    2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?


    3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?


    4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?


    5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
    1. Depends what you mean by start over. If its burn everything to the ground then NO. this is too drastic for a team this young, that's what i see NY doing if this year fails again. You need to identify who has a place on the team 4 years down the road and get rid of everyone else.

    2. Valanciunas is everything you hope a lottery pick to be, Talented, hard working, improving before your eyes at a position of need. There is no sense in trading valanciunas for the hope pf getting another version of him maybe at a different position. I wouldn't even trade him for Dwight Howard or Roy hibbert today because they would carry us in the 7-11 range every year. JV is the only untouchable but i would like to keep ross, Derozan, and Amir also. Everyone else can go i couldn't care less and they could all walk out within 2 seasons anyways so why invest much more in them ?

    3. Free agency is not option because of our cap situation and team reputation. Draft is always best when you have many of them but if you only have your own every year its a very slow process, so the first step is Trade to get picks or recently drafted players.

    4. IF everything goes right 5 seed with a first round exit. with good luck for us and bad luck for the others.

    5. Tell you the truth the only time where the raptors were pleasant to watch for competitive reasons was for a week after the rudy gay trade. other than that they looked like a rebuilding team the whole season. I found great pleasure in watching Valanciunas, Ed Davis, and Amir grow. (#FREEEDDAVIS) was hoping to see more from Ross. So i dont see what the problem is if we decide going with developing youth.

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