View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #781
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Great post Craiger

  2. #782
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    But the Raptors are going to become one of those elite markets after Rudy Gay & DeRozan lead the team to the 8th seed and they lose 4-1 in the first round to Miami.

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  4. #783
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    But if we're doing completely hypothetical situations, here's one:

    .... ... ...

    I actually think my scenario is more likely than yours.
    This is an easier scenario to work with because you have a honest idea of when your strengths are, and the ceiling of the team. IF we middle out with lots of struggles I believe MU would let KL walk & draft a PG. Gay's contract would have some serious value to a team trying to make the playoffs or shed cap (1 year $20 million). Derozan is versatile enough to find a suitor on another team, and be worth at minimum a pick. The situation is easier because we can see we gave Casey one year with this team, it doesn't work, and now its time to blow it up for the 2014-2015 season.

  5. #784
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Hurricane_Herm wrote: View Post
    This is an easier scenario to work with because you have a honest idea of when your strengths are, and the ceiling of the team. IF we middle out with lots of struggles I believe MU would let KL walk & draft a PG. Gay's contract would have some serious value to a team trying to make the playoffs or shed cap (1 year $20 million). Derozan is versatile enough to find a suitor on another team, and be worth at minimum a pick. The situation is easier because we can see we gave Casey one year with this team, it doesn't work, and now its time to blow it up for the 2014-2015 season.
    Which carries all of the risk of tanking but without the super-stacked lottery of this year's draft class.

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  7. #785
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Which carries all of the risk of tanking but without the super-stacked lottery of this year's draft class.
    And the risk of losing Lowry for nothing.

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  9. #786
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Which carries all of the risk of tanking but without the super-stacked lottery of this year's draft class.
    Not only does the risk (stay the same) vs reward (likely decrease) change not in the teams favour, the team also wastes a year for the same goal.

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  11. #787
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    But the Raptors are going to become one of those elite markets after Rudy Gay & DeRozan lead the team to the 8th seed and they lose 4-1 in the first round to Miami.
    I sense sarcasm
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  12. #788
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    As part of our mass exodus plan, we should focus on trying to get picks in the 2015 draft class. No one is going to likely move 2014 picks in any deal, so dealing away over-paid under-producing players for 2015 picks will give us the best chances in the 2014 lottery and still carry forward good (but not great) picks in 2015. If we can build a team around JV, Ross, our own 2014 lottery pick, and 2 or 3 first rounders in 2015, then we would have lots of young talent on cap friendly deals.

  13. #789
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I find it odd that you think the team would have "less value" on it if the Raptors moved their highest paid players and ended up winning more games. That would actually mean more value.
    I don't at all. Cap dump scenarios in here typically revolved around taking back less value in exchange for less financial obligation.

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I actually think my scenario is more likely than yours.
    Of course you do. That's human nature.

    Getting away from what we think, what we know is that the tank club can't submit nearly as many examples of it working(if not any depending on how you define success) compared to those examples of teams succeeding while not trying to intentionally take away value from their customers. At the end of the day the customer shouldn't have to suffer through inferior products due to incompetence. Incompetence got their teams where they are and intentionally doing what comes natural won't get them out of it; based on history and odds.

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    And the risk of losing Lowry for nothing.
    That's always going to be a risk to a losing culture. The Raptors have lost all their stars and most of their impact players. Even when they had Carter in his prime, being compared to MJ by many, they had to overpay to keep the team together. It doesn't matter where they draft or how they draft if the table hasn't been set; that being a track record of consistent winning seasons to rid the stench that infests this team in the minds of people associated with the league. The Toronto Raptors stinking is part of the basketball culture in North America. It's well established/engrained.

  14. #790
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't at all. Cap dump scenarios in here typically revolved around taking back less value in exchange for less financial obligation.



    Of course you do. That's human nature.
    What are the cap dump scenarios? If you're still hung up on the Rudy Gay for CV/Stuckey rumour, I don't think there was a single person on this board who thought that was a good idea, pro-rebuild or otherwise. Regardless, I think it's safe to say that it will never happen.

    Beyond that, you really think that if the team sheds DeRozan and Gay's nearly $30 million combined salaries, gets some draft picks and prospects back in the process, AND improves their record in the short term that the franchise would be in worse shape because of it? That doesn't make sense.

  15. #791
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    You're putting words in my mouth. What I am against is intentionally losing to increase the odds of getting a high lottery choice. It goes against what I feel is right, it goes against my principles.

    By the way, I jumped into that last posted and added more.

  16. #792
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're putting words in my mouth. What I am against is intentionally losing to increase the odds of getting a high lottery choice. It goes against what I feel is right, it goes against my principles.

    By the way, I jumped into that last posted and added more.
    Well then it sounds like you're making an emotional argument and not a logical one, no?

    Edit: Not trying to put words in your mouth either. Your hypothetical situation from a couple posts was that the team would sell off a couple of starters and still manage to make a playoff run, but you made it seem like that would be the end of the world for the Raptors and definitive proof that the tankers were wrong all along.

    The way I look at that scenario is that if you think there's any chance that you remove those guys and the team actually improves... then why on earth would you be willing to build around them now? If you don't think there's any chance of that happening then I don't know why you bothered to post your hypothetical situation to begin with.
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Jul 15th, 2013 at 12:04 PM.

  17. #793
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Not at all. I've stated facts all throughout this thread; the odds are stacked against tanking being the solution that works in fact.

    There isn't a person in here who is not influenced by who they are(ie: their beliefs) in every action they take every day.

    What I believe shouldn't weigh against what I can prove.

    ie: track records of team who've tanked vs. teams who have not tried to lose in hopes of hitting the jackpot.

    The best player of this generation went to a team that tanked to get him. What happened? They went to the finals and yet he still left them for the Miami Heat, a team that never tanks. To make matters worse, he was from Ohio, the Cavs were the team he grew up watching. Why did he leave them? Because he wasn't sold on his chances of winning there. I have no doubt in my mind that his doubts about the Cavs stem from them having been known for having a losing culture.

    Pretty much the same thing played out in Orlando with both Dwight and Shaq.

    Ditto for the Nuggets and as luck would have it they only just managed to bring in a great basketball mind to navigate them through the mess; most teams don't come out like that.

  18. #794
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're putting words in my mouth. What I am against is intentionally losing to increase the odds of getting a high lottery choice. It goes against what I feel is right, it goes against my principles.

    By the way, I jumped into that last posted and added more.
    To me that isn't the point of trading away Gay/DD/etc. It isn't losing on purpose, it is accepting the reality (in our opinion) that the current roster make-up isn't the answer, and that to move forward we need to acquire different assets, preferably young players on rookie deals that form a cohesive unit. The fact that the 2014 draft class is so strong is simply the argument for doing it now and not meandering in the 7-10 range for a couple more seasons before tearing it down then. Again, based on our opinion of the reality of this roster.

    If you truely believe that this roster can get us a Championship, then of course you wouldn't want to tear it all down and start over. But for many Raptors fans, we see a flawed roster with bloated contracts and minimal upside. Getting rid of those players for picks, prospects is better in the long-term, and if it nets us a top 5 pick, even better. I would honestly be happier if we could load up on 2015 picks (say 3 first rounders) and build a cohesive roster that finds the playoff threshold before the luxury cap threshold.

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  20. #795
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    Some people really just aren't considering this option.

    Say we do keep our roster and have a pick around 13-16 or so. We have Lowry, Gay, Amir as assets to trade during the draft to move up. We could also consolidate them with our pick for a star. It's more difficult to do that during/before the season because trading players like that to another team could result in their pick being worse.

  21. #796
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    To me that isn't the point of trading away Gay/DD/etc. It isn't losing on purpose, it is accepting the reality (in our opinion) that the current roster make-up isn't the answer, and that to move forward we need to acquire different assets, preferably young players on rookie deals that form a cohesive unit. The fact that the 2014 draft class is so strong is simply the argument for doing it now and not meandering in the 7-10 range for a couple more seasons before tearing it down then. Again, based on our opinion of the reality of this roster.

    If you truely believe that this roster can get us a Championship, then of course you wouldn't want to tear it all down and start over. But for many Raptors fans, we see a flawed roster with bloated contracts and minimal upside. Getting rid of those players for picks, prospects is better in the long-term, and if it nets us a top 5 pick, even better. I would honestly be happier if we could load up on 2015 picks (say 3 first rounders) and build a cohesive roster that finds the playoff threshold before the luxury cap threshold.
    I know this current roster is going nowhere as is. Not a person in here is saying otherwise as far as I can tell.

    Tanking means losing on purposes. That's what it is. You can make moves that hurt your position in the standings and not be a tanker. Tanking is operating under the objective to lose as much as possible to get that top pick.

    Hell, contenders make plays which hurt their position in the standings. It's called resting guys for the playoffs. When they're doing that they're not intentionally trying to lose though.

  22. #797
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I know this current roster is going nowhere as is. Not a person in here is saying otherwise as far as I can tell.

    Tanking means losing on purposes. That's what it is. You can make moves they hurt your position in the standings and not be a tanker. Tanking is operating under the objective to lose as much as possible to get that top pick.
    I honestly don't know what moves, ideas, or proposals you are commenting about that fit your criteria. I haven't seen someone post to try and lose games on purpose so that we can get the top pick. I have seen lots of proposals that talk about trading away Gay or DD (which are immediately met with "not another tanking proposal") that benefit the team with either young talent, picks, financial flexibility or, most likely, all of the above.

  23. #798
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Come on, it's even in the thread title. There is a poll at the top of the page. Nine people voted for it so far. I'm not going to pick through the behemoth to find you posts but they're in here; people talking about tanking for the 2014 draft; shedding cap so that the team can use flexibility to overpay new players.

  24. #799
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Actually the title says rebuild or re-tool....

  25. #800
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Well there was a time when it didn't say that. Read the poll. Who are the nine people who voted yes? Maybe they can direct you to their posts?

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