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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)
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Matt52 wrote: View PostRebuild says: That window I'm talking about is not for our current guys outside the players on rookie deals. We have 3 years before we have to extend Jonas. In those three years we have to acquire as much talent as we can.@sweatpantsjer
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Matt52 wrote: View PostHere is the status with draft picks
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/dra...rafts/detailed
Teams with multiple picks:
Charlotte: possibly 3, possibly none
Boston: 2
Chicago: possibly 2
Cleveland: Possibly 2
Miami: possibly 2, most likely 1
Orlando: 2
Phoenix: Possibly 2
Philadelphia: possibly 2, possibly none
Utah: 2@sweatpantsjer
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Mediumcore wrote: View PostRoss is so athletic and explosive that using him as just a spot up shooter would be a shame. He needs to work on his handles. Can't believe we have two shooting guards that can't dribble. Wtf happened to learning the basics?@sweatpantsjer
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"Even the harshest critics would have to say one thing, and that's that every move Otis made was to try to make the team as good as possible and to try to win that year or the next year," Van Gundy said the other day on our critically acclaimed and wildly popular Open Mike radio show. "People get really critical of GMs who go that way while you see these guys (GMs) in these long-term building projects get praised.
"It's one of the reasons I'm really happy that Dwight went to Houston and they now have a chance to contend. I think it's accepted wisdom that the way you build a team now is to get as bad as you can and then build it back -- and that's the only way to do it. But that's not how Daryl Morey has done it. He has at no time made that effort. They (Rockets) have not had a top 10 draft pick and yet he's built this thing into now being a contender. There is another way to do it: You can try to win. You can try to give your fans a good product every year. I'm not saying the teams that go the other way are wrong; I'm just saying it's not the only way to do it."
Put SVG down as a tweaker.
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It's good info. But, wtf was with that "our critically acclaimed and wildly popular" like major douche alert!If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?
Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.
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Here's a good one no one is talking about. What if Ujiri does move some of the pieces you guys deem nonessential and counter to a tank job but then JV and Ross have breakout seasons? Let's toss in Lowry as well for good measure and say he stays healthy all season and is very productive. That spoils your wish for a high pick and the Raptors have less value on their team than before. What then, keep on tanking for 2015? I guess that's your play because to you winning is the enimy in the short run, right?
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Apollo wrote: View PostHere's a good one no one is talking about. What if Ujiri does move some of the pieces you guys deem nonessential and counter to a tank job but then JV and Ross have breakout seasons? Let's toss in Lowry as well for good measure and say he stays healthy all season and is very productive. That spoils your wish for a high pick and the Raptors have less value on their team than before. What then, keep on tanking for 2015? I guess that's your play because to you winning is the enimy in the short run, right?@Chr1st1anL
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Apollo wrote: View PostHere's a good one no one is talking about. What if Ujiri does move some of the pieces you guys deem nonessential and counter to a tank job but then JV and Ross have breakout seasons? Let's toss in Lowry as well for good measure and say he stays healthy all season and is very productive. That spoils your wish for a high pick and the Raptors have less value on their team than before. What then, keep on tanking for 2015? I guess that's your play because to you winning is the enimy in the short run, right?@Chr1st1anL
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Apollo wrote: View PostHere's a good one no one is talking about. What if Ujiri does move some of the pieces you guys deem nonessential and counter to a tank job but then JV and Ross have breakout seasons? Let's toss in Lowry as well for good measure and say he stays healthy all season and is very productive. That spoils your wish for a high pick and the Raptors have less value on their team than before. What then, keep on tanking for 2015? I guess that's your play because to you winning is the enimy in the short run, right?
I find it odd that you think the team would have "less value" on it if the Raptors moved their highest paid players and ended up winning more games. That would actually mean more value.
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But if we're doing completely hypothetical situations, here's one:
Ujiri stands pat for the entire season. Kyle Lowry gets hurt twice during the year, once around Christmas and once around the all star break. He plays 61 games, continues to clash with Casey, but still demands a 4-year, $44 million dollar contract this summer. Ujiri doesn't want to lock up an injury prone PG with a history of clashing with coaches so he lets him walk for nothing. Terrence Ross continues to struggle next year. Fields fails to get his groove back. DD improves his 3P% but only incrementally to 30%. Gay and DeRozan are still largely the inefficient combo on the wing that we saw last season. The team goes 40-42 and finishes ninth in the East. They draft 14th overall.
I actually think my scenario is more likely than yours.Last edited by Fully; Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:08 AM.
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From Matt52's Van Gundy quote:
I think it's accepted wisdom that the way you build a team now is to get as bad as you can and then build it back -- and that's the only way to do it. But that's not how Daryl Morey has done it. He has at no time made that effort.
That team had no shot at the playoffs. What Morey did with the Harden deal was impressive, moreso if he did it with the foresight that Harden would be available prior to the season's start. But lets not pretend Morey wasn't set up for a tank year had Harden not been available or gone his way.
There is another way to do it: You can try to win. You can try to give your fans a good product every year. I'm not saying the teams that go the other way are wrong; I'm just saying it's not the only way to do it.
But what about the other half of the NBA?
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Here is the list of the top 20 players by WS/48.
LeBron James-MIA
Kevin Durant-OKC
Chris Paul-LAC
Tyson Chandler - NYK
Tony Parker-SAS
James Harden-HOU
Marc Gasol-MEM
Tiago Splitter-SAS
Blake Griffin-LAC
Russell Westbrook-OKC
Dwyane Wade-MIA
Tim Duncan-SAS
Brook Lopez-BRK
Carmelo Anthony-NYK
Deron Williams-BRK
Serge Ibaka-OKC
Stephen Curry-GSW
David West-IND
George Hill-IND
Chris Bosh-MIA
11 are with the team that drafted them (Marc Gasol may be an exception, but had his rights traded for as he was not yet in the NBA)
Of the 9 remaining who weren't drafted by their team, Only 2 (David West and George Hill) are not in NY/LA/Miami/Houston/Dallas.
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Here is a list of the top 20 players by PER (played atleast 30 minutes)
LeBron James, MIA
Kevin Durant, OKC
Chris Paul, LAC
Carmelo Anthony, NY
Brook Lopez, BKN
Tim Duncan, SA
Dwyane Wade, MIA
Russell Westbrook, OKC
Tony Parker, SA
Kobe Bryant, LAL
James Harden, HOU
Blake Griffin, LAC
Anthony Davis, NO
Anderson Varejao, CLE
Kyrie Irving, CLE
Stephen Curry, GS
Al Jefferson, UTAH (Charlotte now)
John Wall, WSH
LaMarcus Aldridge, POR
Deron Williams, BKN
14 are with the team that drafted them.
Of the 6 remaining who weren't drafted by their team, Only 1 player (Al Jefferson) is not in NY/LA/Miami/Houston/Dallas.
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Here is the list of top 20 players by WP
Durant, Kevin
James, LeBron
Paul, Chris
Harden, James
Chandler, Tyson
Ibaka, Serge
Curry, Stephen
Noah, Joakim
Conley, Mike
Wade, Dwyane
Kirilenko, Andrei
Butler, Jimmy
Faried, Kenneth
Sefolosha, Thabo
Marion, Shawn
Calderon, Jose
Johnson, Amir
Batum, Nicolas
Iguodala, Andre
Gasol, Marc
10 are with the team that drafted them (*see Marc Gasol above)
Of the 10 remaining who weren't drafted by their team, only 3 (Amir Johnson, Andre Igoudala, Thabo Sefolosha) are not NY/LA/Miami/Houston/Dallas
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So here we have a grand total of 6 "statistical stars" who have not been drafted by their team and didn't end up in one of the NBA elite markets.
The players and their respective statistical ranking
Amir Johnson 17th
Thabo Sefolosha 14th
Iggy 19th
Al Jefferson 17th
George Hill 19th
David West 18th
NBA Awards between those 6 - David West NBA all-star x 2, Thabo Sefolosha NBA all defensive 2nd team, Iggy NBA All-star x 1, NBA all defensive 2nd team x 1
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Lets do the same with 2012/13 NBA allstars (I won't list them all this time though)
Of the 25 NBA allstars (including Rondo and his replacement Lopez) 14 were drafted by their team.
Of the 11 remaining who weren't drafted by their team, only 3 (Zach Randolph, David Lee, Jrue Holiday) are not in NY/LA/Miami/Houston/Dallas.
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So to fully understand the dichotomy here:
The 'elite' markets account for 25% of the league (8 of 30 teams)
The 'elite' markets account for 75% of the league's 'stars' (statistical and all-star 27 of 36) that were not drafted by their team.
*should be noted many of those names overlap in different categories (Lebron, Harden, Melo etc) so of the league's 'stars' (statistical and allstar) that were not drafted by their team, averaged per category (ie. 83% of PER stars, 77% of WS/48 stars etc), the elite markets account for 76%
Of those players not drafted or in an elite market, all except for Thabo at 14th under WP, were in the bottom quarter of their respective stats, none were (or have ever been) allstar starters, and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would call any of them a superstar.
We need to stop pretending that all teams can realistically build/rebuild in the same fashion.
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