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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • With its shorter contracts, limited exceptions, spending restrictions and punitive tax rates, the 2011 CBA is designed to more closely calibrate payrolls across markets. But as the Heat, Knicks and Pacers have shown, teams can still arrive at comparable places on the payroll spectrum by very different methods.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/2...s-cba-kicks-in
    A glimmer of hope?

    Comment


    • Organic growth. Starts with good drafting, requires excellent personal player coaching, getting players that all are playing within, and suited for a particular system, a great training staff to keep them healthy, and a long enough period of playing together to develop trust and intra-player knowledge so that help defense and passing aren't consciously thought out but happen automatically.

      It needs a coach that can deal with both offensive and defensive systems, or who has assistants that can, and also effective use of advanced analytics to identify good prospects, players that are playing in systems that don't suit their talents and also advance scouting on opponents.

      The Raptors already have (by all accounts) a great analytics team, they have one of the best strength and conditioning guys in the league, they have a coach who has shown at least once that, even with a flawed roster, he can put a very effective defensive team on the floor (how good would the Raps have been defensively if they had almost anyone other than AB playing for them in Casey's first year).

      They haven't done a terrible job of drafting to this point, they just haven't been great and have given up a lot of draft picks.

      They probably have 4, maybe 5 guys on the roster who would be able to play in any particular system and who have the desire and motor to do so. JV, Fields, Ross, Lowry and Amir. I don't know enough about Gay's motivation to say one way or the other. I think DD might be able to but he needs help with some of the nuances of the defensive rotations and sets. I wish the Raps ensured that Ross and Derozan got intensive individual coaching over the summer on both D and O. It has been said numerous times that offensive ability starts with a set of natural gifts and talents. But anybody can play a good defensive game, it's a matter of being willing to try hard enough. I don't know if that is true, but it seems definite that DD and Ross should be much better defensively.

      I remain hopeful. It seems obvious that Bargs and one of either DD or Gay will go for other pieces. I wouldn't mind if both of them stayed, but I don't see how you can add to the existing 5 players I mentioned above as useable without trading at least one of them. DD has to play better D to be kept or he is not worth his contract. And I don't see how he can demonstrate better D over the summer with no games being played, so I suspect he is gone.

      Comment


      • Puffer wrote: View Post
        Organic growth. Starts with good drafting, requires excellent personal player coaching, getting players that all are playing within, and suited for a particular system, a great training staff to keep them healthy, and a long enough period of playing together to develop trust and intra-player knowledge so that help defense and passing aren't consciously thought out but happen automatically.

        It needs a coach that can deal with both offensive and defensive systems, or who has assistants that can, and also effective use of advanced analytics to identify good prospects, players that are playing in systems that don't suit their talents and also advance scouting on opponents.

        The Raptors already have (by all accounts) a great analytics team, they have one of the best strength and conditioning guys in the league, they have a coach who has shown at least once that, even with a flawed roster, he can put a very effective defensive team on the floor (how good would the Raps have been defensively if they had almost anyone other than AB playing for them in Casey's first year).

        They haven't done a terrible job of drafting to this point, they just haven't been great and have given up a lot of draft picks.

        They probably have 4, maybe 5 guys on the roster who would be able to play in any particular system and who have the desire and motor to do so. JV, Fields, Ross, Lowry and Amir. I don't know enough about Gay's motivation to say one way or the other. I think DD might be able to but he needs help with some of the nuances of the defensive rotations and sets. I wish the Raps ensured that Ross and Derozan got intensive individual coaching over the summer on both D and O. It has been said numerous times that offensive ability starts with a set of natural gifts and talents. But anybody can play a good defensive game, it's a matter of being willing to try hard enough. I don't know if that is true, but it seems definite that DD and Ross should be much better defensively.

        I remain hopeful. It seems obvious that Bargs and one of either DD or Gay will go for other pieces. I wouldn't mind if both of them stayed, but I don't see how you can add to the existing 5 players I mentioned above as useable without trading at least one of them. DD has to play better D to be kept or he is not worth his contract. And I don't see how he can demonstrate better D over the summer with no games being played, so I suspect he is gone.
        Just to the bolded parts:

        Bold #1 - So far all we've seen is that they have dropped the ball. Perhaps they are great and Colangelo/Casey didn't listen. But Rucker has made numerous claims to players that turned out to have questionable results at best (Lowry/Fields fit perfectly with Bargnani, Ross was (paraphrase) NBA ready and a perfect fit). One statement this analytics team made, that has always stuck out in my mind, was how analytics need to 'fit' with what a GM/Coach is doing. Thats a questionable relationship to create. It may help what a GM/Coach is doing, but if the analytics show what they are doing is wrong, the usefulness or effectiveness of the analytics is pretty much meaningless.

        Bold #2 - I think the Raptors have successful drafted twice in 7 years. Val and Ed. That to me is a terrible record. Colangelo gets a by on one of those years because it was an old 'future pick' traded away by Grunwald. But Colangelo had 9 (10?) opportunities total (looking at only first round).

        And I know someone is going to try and tell me Bargnani and Demar aren't draft busts like Adam Morrsion or Shelden Williams, and I'll make the statement ahead of time, thats only because Morrison and Williams didn't have Colangelo for a GM.

        Comment


        • DeMar DeRozan? dont be so DISRESPECTFUL #StephenASmith #Voice isnt a bad draft pick and neither is Terrence Ross.

          Comment


          • What teams are safe bets to be high in the lottery next year? If we are going to blow it up I'd like to get some draft picks out of it

            Comment


            • Craiger wrote: View Post
              Just to the bolded parts:

              Bold #1 - So far all we've seen is that they have dropped the ball. Perhaps they are great and Colangelo/Casey didn't listen. But Rucker has made numerous claims to players that turned out to have questionable results at best (Lowry/Fields fit perfectly with Bargnani, Ross was (paraphrase) NBA ready and a perfect fit). One statement this analytics team made, that has always stuck out in my mind, was how analytics need to 'fit' with what a GM/Coach is doing. Thats a questionable relationship to create. It may help what a GM/Coach is doing, but if the analytics show what they are doing is wrong, the usefulness or effectiveness of the analytics is pretty much meaningless.

              Bold #2 - I think the Raptors have successful drafted twice in 7 years. Val and Ed. That to me is a terrible record. Colangelo gets a by on one of those years because it was an old 'future pick' traded away by Grunwald. But Colangelo had 9 (10?) opportunities total (looking at only first round).

              And I know someone is going to try and tell me Bargnani and Demar aren't draft busts like Adam Morrsion or Shelden Williams, and I'll make the statement ahead of time, thats only because Morrison and Williams didn't have Colangelo for a GM.
              I think you answered your first point with the first bolded section above. There have been statements along the line of the coach not using the Analytics team properly. As for the seconded bolded section above, the argument could be made that Bargs was never coached/used properly/ Smitch has alluded to the "kid gloves" treatment he had to give Bargs. And we know that Lowry wasn't coached properly after the Jose trade and he worked to change his style of play. You can't hang that on the analytics team.

              I think you could also argue that Ross wasn't used properly this past season either. I am not sure where responsibility for that goes, but coach seems like an obvious choice. Ross showed us pretty much what he was capable of...which is pretty much what the Analytics guys said. I just don't think he was well used.

              As for drafting Bargs and Demar, see my remarks about how Bargs was handled his whole career. And the worst thing about Demar, and what makes people really disappointed is the contract BC handed him. For coming what, 12th in the draft, I think he has not been a disappointment.

              Comment


              • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                One more thing. How the heck is the Cavs future more bright than the Raptors?

                Cavs line up:
                Irving*
                Waiters
                Gee
                Thompson
                Zeller

                Raps line up:
                Lowry
                DeRozan*
                Gay*
                Johnson*
                Valanciunas*

                * - Advantage

                You can argue youth and potential. But Waiters and Zeller both look like rotation players to me. They only have 1 sure fire all star and 1 solid starter in Thompson. I think all this losing is getting to peoples heads. Our players don't suck, our team sucks! if we had a real coaching staff this team could really be something special. Hopefully the hiring of Leiweke and Ujiri can solve this problem and turn this team into a truly elite team.
                Gee and Zeller are only starters because we have nothing better at this time; they are not projected as long term starters.

                If the comparison is between Noel and Valanciunas, is it so clear who will be the better player of the two? I think it will take 2-3 years before we have a good indication.

                DeRozan is a better player than Waiters at this time but I prefer Waiters long term. Waiters can create his own shot, better handle, better passer, and I expect he will develop as a shooter and especially as a defender.

                I already like Tristan Thompson better than Amir Johnson. TT developed a push shot in the second half of the season and showed a jumpshot in the last 5 games of the year. I expect you will change your mind as who is better this upcoming season.

                Zeller is a backup center; he started because Andy was injured. I'd take him over Gray because I think he can be a second stringer if he puts on some muscle and stop thinking if there are better options before he shoots.

                Gee is a decent backup; ideally fitted as a 4th wing. He will lose his starting position either this year or the following year.

                The Cavaliers have several 1st round pick (including 1st overall this year) over the next three years and enough cap space to sign at least one max player without shedding any salary. Lots of possibilities as to improving themselves.

                Please name the bad contracts on the Raptors and do the same for the Cavaliers; I bet the second list will be much shorter.
                Last edited by Hugmenot; Sun May 26, 2013, 05:06 PM.

                Comment


                • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                  Gee and Zeller are only starters because we have nothing better at this time; they are not projected as long term starters.

                  If the comparison is between Noel and Valanciunas, is it so clear who will be the better player of the two? I think it will take 2-3 years before we have a good indication.

                  DeRozan is a better player than Waiters at this time but I prefer Waiters long term. Waiters can create his own shot, better handle, better passer, and I expect he will develop as a shooter and especially as a defender.

                  I already like Tristan Thompson better than Amir Johnson. TT developed a push shot in the second half of the season and showed a jumpshot in the last 5 games of the year. I expect you will change your mind as who is better this upcoming season.

                  Zeller is a backup center; he started because Andy was injured. I'd take him over Gray because I think he can be a second stringer if he puts on some muscle and stop thinking if there are better options before he shoots.

                  Gee is a decent backup; ideally fitted as a 4th wing. He will lose his starting position either this year or the following year.

                  The Cavaliers have several 1st round pick (including 1st overall this year) over the next three years and enough cap space to sign at least one max player without shedding any salary. Lots of possibilities as to improving themselves.

                  Please name the bad contracts on the Raptors and do the same for the Cavaliers; I bet the second list will be much shorter.
                  You seem to be a Cav's fan so your opinion is pretty biased. But either way, Cleveland is a younger team with more guys still under rookie contracts.
                  You come at the King, you best not miss.

                  Comment


                  • Mr.Z wrote: View Post
                    You seem to be a Cav's fan so your opinion is pretty biased. But either way, Cleveland is a younger team with more guys still under rookie contracts.
                    just found that comment funny

                    Comment


                    • Craiger wrote: View Post
                      just found that comment funny
                      Why?

                      This is a bias free zone of the internet in case you were not aware.

                      Comment


                      • Mr.Z wrote: View Post
                        You seem to be a Cav's fan so your opinion is pretty biased. But either way, Cleveland is a younger team with more guys still under rookie contracts.
                        I am both a Raptors and Cavaliers fan so my opinion may be less biased than that of just a Raptors fan.

                        I am very unhappy with the Fields and DeRozan contracts and wrote about it when they were signed. I was also against acquiring Rudy Gay and wrote about it whenever Matt suggested it. But Fields and Gay were acquired and I will cheer for them as long they are Raptors. I like DeRozan but think he should have not gotten a contract that paid him more than Wilson Chandler. I hope he makes me eat my words.

                        Comment


                        • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                          I am both a Raptors and Cavaliers fan so my opinion may be less biased than that of just a Raptors fan.

                          I am very unhappy with the Fields and DeRozan contracts and wrote about it when they were signed. I was also against acquiring Rudy Gay and wrote about it whenever Matt suggested it. But Fields and Gay were acquired and I will cheer for them as long they are Raptors. I like DeRozan but think he should have not gotten a contract that paid him more than Wilson Chandler. I hope he makes me eat my words.
                          I have coined a new term that Colangelo and myself both have been victims/blinded idiots of: Bargnanied. Let me put it in a sentence for you:

                          A trade for Rudy Gay would have been awesome for Toronto but alas we was Bargnanied.

                          To be Bargnanied means that something should have been so good turns out to be so bad.

                          You could also say:

                          The Lakers were Nashed.... or Howarded.

                          The 76ers were Bynumed.

                          You cannot say though:

                          The Suns were Beaslied because everyone say that coming.

                          Comment


                          • Alright then, wasn't sure if you were just a Cav's fan going rogue in other teams forum sites lol
                            You come at the King, you best not miss.

                            Comment


                            • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                              Gee and Zeller are only starters because we have nothing better at this time; they are not projected as long term starters.

                              If the comparison is between Noel and Valanciunas, is it so clear who will be the better player of the two? I think it will take 2-3 years before we have a good indication.

                              DeRozan is a better player than Waiters at this time but I prefer Waiters long term. Waiters can create his own shot, better handle, better passer, and I expect he will develop as a shooter and especially as a defender.

                              I already like Tristan Thompson better than Amir Johnson. TT developed a push shot in the second half of the season and showed a jumpshot in the last 5 games of the year. I expect you will change your mind as who is better this upcoming season.

                              Zeller is a backup center; he started because Andy was injured. I'd take him over Gray because I think he can be a second stringer if he puts on some muscle and stop thinking if there are better options before he shoots.

                              Gee is a decent backup; ideally fitted as a 4th wing. He will lose his starting position either this year or the following year.

                              The Cavaliers have several 1st round pick (including 1st overall this year) over the next three years and enough cap space to sign at least one max player without shedding any salary. Lots of possibilities as to improving themselves.

                              Please name the bad contracts on the Raptors and do the same for the Cavaliers; I bet the second list will be much shorter.
                              Bottom line is. Raptors have more talent and the Cavs don't

                              Comment


                              • we need to blow it up and at least take a shot at wiggins. at the very least we get a great consolation prize to go along side jv.
                                if lieweke isnt satisfied with being more than a piece away than it has to be considered.
                                1 more bad year for 10 great years, or a mediocre year and 5 more to come before heading back to the lottery.
                                no brainer if im sitting in that chair thinking long term

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