View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #221
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I've been paying a lot of attention to Indianna this post season because I feel like that's the team we resemble the most. Could strive to become very easily. The one thing I've notice is how much better they've played without the wing duo of Granger/Goerge. They've replace Granger with Stephanson. How is more of all around player. That's made a lot of defiance in their whole approach on offense and defense. It just seems like their way more complimentary to eachother. No one is stepping on anyone feet.

    With that said I've become a avatator of Landry Fields starting next to Rudy. I believe that Landry Fields is a great clue guy to have in a starting line up. That will do all the little things that will help you win basketball games. He doesn't need to score to be productive. DD has to score to be productive unfortuantely. There wont be that many shots to go around in the first unit with JV getting better.

    I wouldn't want DD to come off the bench. I'd rather see him just be traded all together. I would really like to see him go to LA with AB for Gasol back. DD has been extremely loyal to Toronto. It would be a nice gesture to send him home. That way we would only see him twice a year too. If know me I'm a big DD fan. His the only raptor I've ever met but, I just feel like this team would just be better that way.

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  3. #222
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The one missing element is luck. Charlotte is a perfect example of a team this year who were not trying to be good, ended up 2nd worst, and slipped to 5th. It is tough when you do all you are suppose to do to build through losing only to have the balls bounce to a team not as bad and having them get ahead of you.

    By the way, only way you are getting 5 of those 8 players (MKG, Davis, Harden, Wall, or Irving - that is 3 #1s, a #2, and a #3) is by lottery luck.
    the other most obvious example of this is the toronto raptors in 2010-2011, when they finished with the 3rd worst record in the league and slid all the way to 5th, and drafted jonas valanciunas.

    oh wait.

    you create your own lottery luck. if you finish in the bottom five odds are overwhelming that you'll pick in the top five. if you pick in the top five in multiple years you'll either have a young, cheap core with solid starters to all stars to franchise players.

    or you'll have busts and disappointments. at which point you can re-evaluate the gm and scouting department because it's guaranteed that they missed (there is always an all-star or near all star level talent in the top five). the plan didn't fail. the plan was fucking solid.
    Last edited by chris; Sat May 25th, 2013 at 05:31 PM.

  4. #223
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I am truly not trying to be an antagonist and I apologize if it came off that way.

    I just find it funny that one of your main sticking points with Waiters was that shot 41% as a rookie when there are plenty of key players on the current Raptors roster - one that you seem to think we should move forward with, correct me if I'm wrong - that are either below that mark (Ross, KL) or hovering slightly above it (Gay, DD). There seems to be a disconnect in logic there. I also find it ironic that you are a big fan of Ross and not Waiters - considering Ross falls short of Waiters in practically every single measure last season, and actually had his play decline quite drastically in the back half of the season.

    I can't knock you for liking Beals, Drummond, JV, Lillard or AD over Waiters. I actually would take any of those guys myself. However most of those guys benefitted from having ample opportunities while playing on non-playoff teams too. Beals shot even lower than Waiters last season and Lillard was only marginally higher at 43%. They're rookies. They're all still learning. Waiters included.
    There's no disconnect in logic. I never said any of their FG%s were impressive. I don't like Gay as a scorer. Nor do I like DeMar, though I'd still only trade one to get a better player, not to dump them. As for Ross, his overall % is lower, but his 3pt % is higher. He showed flashes to fill exactly the role he was drafted for: a 3 and D guy with great athleticism. Granted I wish his 3% was a bit higher, but yes, he and all the others are rookies, and we hope they can learn to be better.

    However I also look at things in terms of "what can this guy be elite at?"....And when I look at Waiters, I see nothing to answer that question. Maybe above average in a few areas, but that's it...and he needs the ball a lot. As often gets said about DeMar, inefficient wings with decent athleticism are a dime a dozen. He reminds me a lot of Randy Foye...which makes me think he'll be traded before his rookie contract is up. I can't say the same for Ross. I can see him becoming an elite or near-elite shooter and defender at SG. This makes him a guy who could fit in as a starter or bench player on pretty much any type of winning roster.

    Basically, though there's no way to find this out, I wouldn't be surprised if Ross' value is higher than Waiters'. I'm more confident that Ross fits into whatever team is being built going forward, and I feel like any team shopping for a young SG would thus be more likely to target a player like Ross than Waiters. Right now, Cleveland is building around two ball-dominant shoot-first guards. I find nothing wise about that, I don't care how good a scorer Irving is. He reminds me too much of Iverson (obviously less crazy), and that's a hard type of player to build around.

    To mix things up, I would also take Washington over Cleveland. They have added numerous high picks, but also sprinkled in veterans (Okafor, Nene), who though overpaid, have solid value both on the court and as potential trade assets. Instead of two ball-dominant guards, Wall is a natural PG...still learning, but when he is knocking down shots he is a legit elite PG. Beal is also a very nice piece beside him, already starting to show elite outside shooting (.386% 3pt is pretty great for a rookie). Webster is a nice young vet, and someone who fits well with what they're doing. They have another high pick coming in this year.

    THey have a pretty nice situation, where they are developing players at the same time as adding pieces to help improve in the short term. The fact that they have added vets and spent some money has not compromised anything going forward. They have many movable assets but a budding core THAT FITS TOGETHER. Now if only they can make sure management doesn't knock things off course.

    Cleveland's team is messy. Nothing looks like surefire pieces that fit together moving forward. This is also a problem in Toronto. And you can't really speculate that draft picks/capspace is a better situation moving forward, because you could also argue that the surest way to add talent is by trading, and the Raptors have more assets stockpiled to get that done. I like the control Toronto has in dictating the moves they make moving assets they already have but don't fit very well. I don't like that Cleveland is depending on the luck of some ping-pong balls or the chances that a young, rich 20-something man is going to decide to spend his prime years there, and that they don't have many assets currently assembled if this doesn't work out as hoped.

    Again though, this is just opinion, and so much in Toronto's case depends on the competence of the new GM, and so much for Cleveland depends on sheer luck. So maybe if BC were still our GM I'd take Cleveland's situation, but hoping the new guy knows what he's doing, I'll pick Toronto's.

    Washington has the best of both worlds, having acquired veterans while continuing to stockpile young pieces, starting with a PG that is a consistent jumper away from being a legit franchise player. They have the freedom to keep adding young pieces, while also having other assets to move if they feel that's the better option for improving their team...and somehow, they haven't destroyed their cap situation. It's funny, for most of the season Washington looked like a train wreck, but they look like they're in a pretty good spot now that the dust has settled. After a few rough years, they look like they're on the right track.

  5. #224
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    the other most obvious example of this is the toronto raptors in 2010-2011, when they finished with the 3rd worst record in the league and slid all the way to 5th, and drafted jonas valanciunas.

    oh wait.

    you create your own lottery luck. if you finish in the bottom five odds are overwhelming that you'll pick in the top five. if you pick in the top five in multiple years you'll either have a young, cheap core with solid starters to all stars to franchise players.

    or you'll have busts and disappointments. at which point you can re-evaluate the gm and scouting department because it's guaranteed that they missed (there is always an all-star or near all star level talent in the top five). the plan didn't fail. the plan was fucking solid.
    oh wait...

    What happens if JV did not have the contract situation? That is an external force that acted upon the situation to Toronto's favour - some might call that external force luck. Toronto did not create that luck, they just were lucky enough to take advantage and have the situation play out in their favour. It was well documented that JV was likely to be/assumed to be/predicted to be the 2nd best talent in the draft but the fear of a Rubio situation scared off Minnesota and Cleveland (JV's buyout was not arranged prior to draft).

    For shits and giggles, lets look at the last 10 drafts:

    2012:
    1 NOH Anthony Davis
    2 CHA Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
    3 WAS Bradley Beal
    4 CLE Dion Waiters
    5 SAC Thomas Robinson

    2011:
    1 CLE Kyrie Irving
    2 MIN Derrick Williams
    3 UTA Enes Kanter
    4 CLE Tristan Thompson
    5 TOR Jonas Valanciunas

    2010:
    1 WAS John Wall
    2 PHI Evan Turner
    3 NJN Derrick Favors
    4 MIN Wesley Johnson
    5 SAC DeMarcus Cousins

    2009:
    1 LAC Blake Griffin
    2 MEM Hasheem Thabeet
    3 OKC James Harden
    4 SAC Tyreke Evans
    5 MIN Ricky Rubio

    2008:
    1 CHI Derrick Rose
    2 MIA Michael Beasley
    3 MIN O.J. Mayo
    4 SEA Russell Westbrook
    5 MEM Kevin Love

    2007:
    1 POR Greg Oden
    2 SEA Kevin Durant
    3 ATL Al Horford
    4 MEM Mike Conley
    5 BOS Jeff Green

    2006:
    1 TOR Andrea Bargnani
    2 CHI LaMarcus Aldridge
    3 CHA Adam Morrison
    4 POR Tyrus Thomas
    5 ATL Shelden Williams

    2005:
    1 MIL Andrew Bogut
    2 ATL Marvin Williams
    3 UTA Deron Williams
    4 NOH Chris Paul
    5 CHA Raymond Felton

    2004:
    1 ORL Dwight Howard
    2 CHA Emeka Okafor
    3 CHI Ben Gordon
    4 LAC Shaun Livingston
    5 WAS Devin Harris

    2003:
    1 CLE LeBron James
    2 DET Darko Milicic
    3 DEN Carmelo Anthony
    4 TOR Chris Bosh
    5 MIA Dwyane Wade

    Yes, there are always all-star to near all-star talent in the top 5 but getting it is never a guarantee. From 2003-2009, there are 35 players selected in the top 5 but only 15 are all-stars today and 12 are either on their way out of the league if not already there. I am not arguing a top 5 pick is not the best way to get all-star talent either. But the only way your logic works without fail is if you get the #1 pick and don't make a wrong choice (i.e. are perfect). Imagine not getting the #1 pick in 2004. Imagine if Durant went #1 in 2007. Imagine if Memphis kept Love (thereby not getting Mayo) and selected Harden (thereby not selecting Thabeet)? What fall out for today. There are a ridiculous amount of variables that do not exist in a vacuum that go in to the draft.

    Then you have all sorts of other issues once you are lucky enough to get the talent: What happens if you don't get a franchise talent - just a couple of borderline all-stars? What happens if your star player becomes a prima donna and wants to go to a larger market? What happens if your all-stars aren't good enough to win on their own and bolt to join up with other all stars to win (or if they become UFA and just want to leave)? What happens if injuries destroy what you have built before it ever gets a chance to reach its potential? What happens if you max out your two all-stars and you don't have enough role players to field a winning team? What happens if you have a million dollar talent with a five cent attitude/work ethic? What happens if your NCAA-1st team, National Player of the Year is just not good enough to make the step to the NBA despite being hailed from all media and scouts as a can't miss? What happens if your star players don't gel on or off court? What happens if the player you draft never improves either through already maximizing talent or poor work ethic? What happens if the talent becomes a different person with millions at their disposal? What happens if it takes the player 5-6 years to put it all together?



    So in the end your theory is draft in top 5 for 2-3 seasons, get franchise talent, and voila championship contender. If this doesn't work, then it is the GM's fault then fire him (and the whole front office) and bring in someone else. I cannot begin to describe how simple minded and short sighted I think this is. If there was a cookie cutter approach to winning, everyone would do it.

    I am not saying what you are advocating is impossible. What I am saying is there is more than one way to build a championship contending team and no way is a sure thing even with the best management. The hilarious thing in the NBA right now there are 4 teams who all were built in different manners competing for the title (San Antonio: injury "luck" leading to #1 pick combined with the best management in the game; Miami: free agency collusion among players; Indiana: a team built through 10-17 draft picks and a key free agent signing in West (a #18 draft pick!); and Memphis: one top 5 pick currently playing and trades/mid-level to lower tier free agents). The one team built in the manner you suggest is knocked out of the playoffs because CBA issues arose resulting in trading Harden and then an injury occurred to Westbrook.


    **There is an article out there with the premise of why there will never be another OKC. Does anyone know where it is? I can't find it. I think it was Grantland**
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #225
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I've been paying a lot of attention to Indianna this post season because I feel like that's the team we resemble the most. Could strive to become very easily. The one thing I've notice is how much better they've played without the wing duo of Granger/Goerge. They've replace Granger with Stephanson. How is more of all around player. That's made a lot of defiance in their whole approach on offense and defense. It just seems like their way more complimentary to eachother. No one is stepping on anyone feet.

    With that said I've become a avatator of Landry Fields starting next to Rudy. I believe that Landry Fields is a great clue guy to have in a starting line up. That will do all the little things that will help you win basketball games. He doesn't need to score to be productive. DD has to score to be productive unfortuantely. There wont be that many shots to go around in the first unit with JV getting better.

    I wouldn't want DD to come off the bench. I'd rather see him just be traded all together. I would really like to see him go to LA with AB for Gasol back. DD has been extremely loyal to Toronto. It would be a nice gesture to send him home. That way we would only see him twice a year too. If know me I'm a big DD fan. His the only raptor I've ever met but, I just feel like this team would just be better that way.
    Welcome to the dark side.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  8. #226
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    With its shorter contracts, limited exceptions, spending restrictions and punitive tax rates, the 2011 CBA is designed to more closely calibrate payrolls across markets. But as the Heat, Knicks and Pacers have shown, teams can still arrive at comparable places on the payroll spectrum by very different methods.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/2...s-cba-kicks-in
    A glimmer of hope?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #227
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Organic growth. Starts with good drafting, requires excellent personal player coaching, getting players that all are playing within, and suited for a particular system, a great training staff to keep them healthy, and a long enough period of playing together to develop trust and intra-player knowledge so that help defense and passing aren't consciously thought out but happen automatically.

    It needs a coach that can deal with both offensive and defensive systems, or who has assistants that can, and also effective use of advanced analytics to identify good prospects, players that are playing in systems that don't suit their talents and also advance scouting on opponents.

    The Raptors already have (by all accounts) a great analytics team, they have one of the best strength and conditioning guys in the league, they have a coach who has shown at least once that, even with a flawed roster, he can put a very effective defensive team on the floor (how good would the Raps have been defensively if they had almost anyone other than AB playing for them in Casey's first year).

    They haven't done a terrible job of drafting to this point, they just haven't been great and have given up a lot of draft picks.

    They probably have 4, maybe 5 guys on the roster who would be able to play in any particular system and who have the desire and motor to do so. JV, Fields, Ross, Lowry and Amir. I don't know enough about Gay's motivation to say one way or the other. I think DD might be able to but he needs help with some of the nuances of the defensive rotations and sets. I wish the Raps ensured that Ross and Derozan got intensive individual coaching over the summer on both D and O. It has been said numerous times that offensive ability starts with a set of natural gifts and talents. But anybody can play a good defensive game, it's a matter of being willing to try hard enough. I don't know if that is true, but it seems definite that DD and Ross should be much better defensively.

    I remain hopeful. It seems obvious that Bargs and one of either DD or Gay will go for other pieces. I wouldn't mind if both of them stayed, but I don't see how you can add to the existing 5 players I mentioned above as useable without trading at least one of them. DD has to play better D to be kept or he is not worth his contract. And I don't see how he can demonstrate better D over the summer with no games being played, so I suspect he is gone.

  10. #228
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Organic growth. Starts with good drafting, requires excellent personal player coaching, getting players that all are playing within, and suited for a particular system, a great training staff to keep them healthy, and a long enough period of playing together to develop trust and intra-player knowledge so that help defense and passing aren't consciously thought out but happen automatically.

    It needs a coach that can deal with both offensive and defensive systems, or who has assistants that can, and also effective use of advanced analytics to identify good prospects, players that are playing in systems that don't suit their talents and also advance scouting on opponents.

    The Raptors already have (by all accounts) a great analytics team, they have one of the best strength and conditioning guys in the league, they have a coach who has shown at least once that, even with a flawed roster, he can put a very effective defensive team on the floor (how good would the Raps have been defensively if they had almost anyone other than AB playing for them in Casey's first year).

    They haven't done a terrible job of drafting to this point, they just haven't been great and have given up a lot of draft picks.

    They probably have 4, maybe 5 guys on the roster who would be able to play in any particular system and who have the desire and motor to do so. JV, Fields, Ross, Lowry and Amir. I don't know enough about Gay's motivation to say one way or the other. I think DD might be able to but he needs help with some of the nuances of the defensive rotations and sets. I wish the Raps ensured that Ross and Derozan got intensive individual coaching over the summer on both D and O. It has been said numerous times that offensive ability starts with a set of natural gifts and talents. But anybody can play a good defensive game, it's a matter of being willing to try hard enough. I don't know if that is true, but it seems definite that DD and Ross should be much better defensively.

    I remain hopeful. It seems obvious that Bargs and one of either DD or Gay will go for other pieces. I wouldn't mind if both of them stayed, but I don't see how you can add to the existing 5 players I mentioned above as useable without trading at least one of them. DD has to play better D to be kept or he is not worth his contract. And I don't see how he can demonstrate better D over the summer with no games being played, so I suspect he is gone.
    Just to the bolded parts:

    Bold #1 - So far all we've seen is that they have dropped the ball. Perhaps they are great and Colangelo/Casey didn't listen. But Rucker has made numerous claims to players that turned out to have questionable results at best (Lowry/Fields fit perfectly with Bargnani, Ross was (paraphrase) NBA ready and a perfect fit). One statement this analytics team made, that has always stuck out in my mind, was how analytics need to 'fit' with what a GM/Coach is doing. Thats a questionable relationship to create. It may help what a GM/Coach is doing, but if the analytics show what they are doing is wrong, the usefulness or effectiveness of the analytics is pretty much meaningless.

    Bold #2 - I think the Raptors have successful drafted twice in 7 years. Val and Ed. That to me is a terrible record. Colangelo gets a by on one of those years because it was an old 'future pick' traded away by Grunwald. But Colangelo had 9 (10?) opportunities total (looking at only first round).

    And I know someone is going to try and tell me Bargnani and Demar aren't draft busts like Adam Morrsion or Shelden Williams, and I'll make the statement ahead of time, thats only because Morrison and Williams didn't have Colangelo for a GM.

  11. #229
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    DeMar DeRozan? dont be so DISRESPECTFUL #StephenASmith #Voice isnt a bad draft pick and neither is Terrence Ross.

  12. #230
    Raptors Republic Rookie RAPTORNATION's Avatar
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    What teams are safe bets to be high in the lottery next year? If we are going to blow it up I'd like to get some draft picks out of it

  13. #231
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Just to the bolded parts:

    Bold #1 - So far all we've seen is that they have dropped the ball. Perhaps they are great and Colangelo/Casey didn't listen. But Rucker has made numerous claims to players that turned out to have questionable results at best (Lowry/Fields fit perfectly with Bargnani, Ross was (paraphrase) NBA ready and a perfect fit). One statement this analytics team made, that has always stuck out in my mind, was how analytics need to 'fit' with what a GM/Coach is doing. Thats a questionable relationship to create. It may help what a GM/Coach is doing, but if the analytics show what they are doing is wrong, the usefulness or effectiveness of the analytics is pretty much meaningless.

    Bold #2 - I think the Raptors have successful drafted twice in 7 years. Val and Ed. That to me is a terrible record. Colangelo gets a by on one of those years because it was an old 'future pick' traded away by Grunwald. But Colangelo had 9 (10?) opportunities total (looking at only first round).

    And I know someone is going to try and tell me Bargnani and Demar aren't draft busts like Adam Morrsion or Shelden Williams, and I'll make the statement ahead of time, thats only because Morrison and Williams didn't have Colangelo for a GM.
    I think you answered your first point with the first bolded section above. There have been statements along the line of the coach not using the Analytics team properly. As for the seconded bolded section above, the argument could be made that Bargs was never coached/used properly/ Smitch has alluded to the "kid gloves" treatment he had to give Bargs. And we know that Lowry wasn't coached properly after the Jose trade and he worked to change his style of play. You can't hang that on the analytics team.

    I think you could also argue that Ross wasn't used properly this past season either. I am not sure where responsibility for that goes, but coach seems like an obvious choice. Ross showed us pretty much what he was capable of...which is pretty much what the Analytics guys said. I just don't think he was well used.

    As for drafting Bargs and Demar, see my remarks about how Bargs was handled his whole career. And the worst thing about Demar, and what makes people really disappointed is the contract BC handed him. For coming what, 12th in the draft, I think he has not been a disappointment.

  14. #232
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    One more thing. How the heck is the Cavs future more bright than the Raptors?

    Cavs line up:
    Irving*
    Waiters
    Gee
    Thompson
    Zeller

    Raps line up:
    Lowry
    DeRozan*
    Gay*
    Johnson*
    Valanciunas*

    * - Advantage

    You can argue youth and potential. But Waiters and Zeller both look like rotation players to me. They only have 1 sure fire all star and 1 solid starter in Thompson. I think all this losing is getting to peoples heads. Our players don't suck, our team sucks! if we had a real coaching staff this team could really be something special. Hopefully the hiring of Leiweke and Ujiri can solve this problem and turn this team into a truly elite team.
    Gee and Zeller are only starters because we have nothing better at this time; they are not projected as long term starters.

    If the comparison is between Noel and Valanciunas, is it so clear who will be the better player of the two? I think it will take 2-3 years before we have a good indication.

    DeRozan is a better player than Waiters at this time but I prefer Waiters long term. Waiters can create his own shot, better handle, better passer, and I expect he will develop as a shooter and especially as a defender.

    I already like Tristan Thompson better than Amir Johnson. TT developed a push shot in the second half of the season and showed a jumpshot in the last 5 games of the year. I expect you will change your mind as who is better this upcoming season.

    Zeller is a backup center; he started because Andy was injured. I'd take him over Gray because I think he can be a second stringer if he puts on some muscle and stop thinking if there are better options before he shoots.

    Gee is a decent backup; ideally fitted as a 4th wing. He will lose his starting position either this year or the following year.

    The Cavaliers have several 1st round pick (including 1st overall this year) over the next three years and enough cap space to sign at least one max player without shedding any salary. Lots of possibilities as to improving themselves.

    Please name the bad contracts on the Raptors and do the same for the Cavaliers; I bet the second list will be much shorter.
    Last edited by Hugmenot; Sun May 26th, 2013 at 05:06 PM.

  15. #233
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Gee and Zeller are only starters because we have nothing better at this time; they are not projected as long term starters.

    If the comparison is between Noel and Valanciunas, is it so clear who will be the better player of the two? I think it will take 2-3 years before we have a good indication.

    DeRozan is a better player than Waiters at this time but I prefer Waiters long term. Waiters can create his own shot, better handle, better passer, and I expect he will develop as a shooter and especially as a defender.

    I already like Tristan Thompson better than Amir Johnson. TT developed a push shot in the second half of the season and showed a jumpshot in the last 5 games of the year. I expect you will change your mind as who is better this upcoming season.

    Zeller is a backup center; he started because Andy was injured. I'd take him over Gray because I think he can be a second stringer if he puts on some muscle and stop thinking if there are better options before he shoots.

    Gee is a decent backup; ideally fitted as a 4th wing. He will lose his starting position either this year or the following year.

    The Cavaliers have several 1st round pick (including 1st overall this year) over the next three years and enough cap space to sign at least one max player without shedding any salary. Lots of possibilities as to improving themselves.

    Please name the bad contracts on the Raptors and do the same for the Cavaliers; I bet the second list will be much shorter.
    You seem to be a Cav's fan so your opinion is pretty biased. But either way, Cleveland is a younger team with more guys still under rookie contracts.

  16. #234
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    You seem to be a Cav's fan so your opinion is pretty biased. But either way, Cleveland is a younger team with more guys still under rookie contracts.
    just found that comment funny

  17. #235
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    just found that comment funny
    Why?

    This is a bias free zone of the internet in case you were not aware.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #236
    Raptors Republic Starter
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    You seem to be a Cav's fan so your opinion is pretty biased. But either way, Cleveland is a younger team with more guys still under rookie contracts.
    I am both a Raptors and Cavaliers fan so my opinion may be less biased than that of just a Raptors fan.

    I am very unhappy with the Fields and DeRozan contracts and wrote about it when they were signed. I was also against acquiring Rudy Gay and wrote about it whenever Matt suggested it. But Fields and Gay were acquired and I will cheer for them as long they are Raptors. I like DeRozan but think he should have not gotten a contract that paid him more than Wilson Chandler. I hope he makes me eat my words.

  19. #237
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I am both a Raptors and Cavaliers fan so my opinion may be less biased than that of just a Raptors fan.

    I am very unhappy with the Fields and DeRozan contracts and wrote about it when they were signed. I was also against acquiring Rudy Gay and wrote about it whenever Matt suggested it. But Fields and Gay were acquired and I will cheer for them as long they are Raptors. I like DeRozan but think he should have not gotten a contract that paid him more than Wilson Chandler. I hope he makes me eat my words.
    I have coined a new term that Colangelo and myself both have been victims/blinded idiots of: Bargnanied. Let me put it in a sentence for you:

    A trade for Rudy Gay would have been awesome for Toronto but alas we was Bargnanied.

    To be Bargnanied means that something should have been so good turns out to be so bad.

    You could also say:

    The Lakers were Nashed.... or Howarded.

    The 76ers were Bynumed.

    You cannot say though:

    The Suns were Beaslied because everyone say that coming.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #238
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Alright then, wasn't sure if you were just a Cav's fan going rogue in other teams forum sites lol

  21. #239
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Gee and Zeller are only starters because we have nothing better at this time; they are not projected as long term starters.

    If the comparison is between Noel and Valanciunas, is it so clear who will be the better player of the two? I think it will take 2-3 years before we have a good indication.

    DeRozan is a better player than Waiters at this time but I prefer Waiters long term. Waiters can create his own shot, better handle, better passer, and I expect he will develop as a shooter and especially as a defender.

    I already like Tristan Thompson better than Amir Johnson. TT developed a push shot in the second half of the season and showed a jumpshot in the last 5 games of the year. I expect you will change your mind as who is better this upcoming season.

    Zeller is a backup center; he started because Andy was injured. I'd take him over Gray because I think he can be a second stringer if he puts on some muscle and stop thinking if there are better options before he shoots.

    Gee is a decent backup; ideally fitted as a 4th wing. He will lose his starting position either this year or the following year.

    The Cavaliers have several 1st round pick (including 1st overall this year) over the next three years and enough cap space to sign at least one max player without shedding any salary. Lots of possibilities as to improving themselves.

    Please name the bad contracts on the Raptors and do the same for the Cavaliers; I bet the second list will be much shorter.
    Bottom line is. Raptors have more talent and the Cavs don't

  22. #240
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    we need to blow it up and at least take a shot at wiggins. at the very least we get a great consolation prize to go along side jv.
    if lieweke isnt satisfied with being more than a piece away than it has to be considered.
    1 more bad year for 10 great years, or a mediocre year and 5 more to come before heading back to the lottery.
    no brainer if im sitting in that chair thinking long term

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