View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 32.43%
  • Tweaker

    25 67.57%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #261
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think that is the point though.

    Many describe tanking as can't miss route to obtaining franchise talent and becoming a contender. OKC is most definitely the exception and not the norm.

    It is not a guarantee to anything except a lot of losing in the short term.

    Specific to the Raptors they are in a position to go in multiple directions and each have their own risks and rewards but nothing is guaranteed as you say.
    Who says that? When has anyone ever said tanking is can't miss or guaranteed?

  2. #262
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Who says that? When has anyone ever said tanking is can't miss or guaranteed?
    Read the threads.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #263
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Read the threads.
    Fully:

    I'm not saying that the tank strategy comes with a guarantee of success. It doesn't.
    Chris:

    you create your own lottery luck
    NoBan:

    the blow it up option is the most realistic path to get there
    the best way to get a championship level roster is to tank and draft well
    ebrain (errr ebrian)

    I'm not saying what the Celtics did can work for everyone,

    But not once in this thread did I read someone say tanking is 'guaranteed' or 'sure fire'.

    The closest thing I read to that was d749 say

    1 more bad year for 10 great years, or a mediocre year and 5 more to come before heading back to the lottery.
    in reference to if the Raps won the draft and got Wiggins.

    Maybe there are some people, somewhere, who at sometime made the argument that tanking is guaranteed. But there are probably other people who say the same thing about signing a free agent or making a trade to.

    Lets not pretend the argument is 'guaranteed' vs 'not guarnateed'. Its what does one think is the best route for success.

  4. #264
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Fully:



    Chris:



    NoBan:





    ebrain (errr ebrian)




    But not once in this thread did I read someone say tanking is 'guaranteed' or 'sure fire'.

    The closest thing I read to that was d749 say



    in reference to if the Raps won the draft and got Wiggins.

    Maybe there are some people, somewhere, who at sometime made the argument that tanking is guaranteed. But there are probably other people who say the same thing about signing a free agent or making a trade to.

    Lets not pretend the argument is 'guaranteed' vs 'not guarnateed'. Its what does one think is the best route for success.

    Guarantee was the wrong word choice. However, read the full posts of many of those quotes (and others) and you get the impression that tanking is the best road to success when there are countless teams (both winning and losing teams) that show otherwise. The only thing tanking does is guarantee losing in the near term and push the hope for a competitive future further down the road.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #265
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Fully:
    But not once in this thread did I read someone say tanking is 'guaranteed' or 'sure fire'.
    You're right, no one is saying that but what some frequent posters are suggesting is that tanking is the only way to get there. Do they explicitly say that? Probably not but reading their words one only can come to that conclusion as all other suggestions are shot down.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The only thing tanking does is guarantee losing in the near term
    I can guarantee you that it also doesn't help the team's reputation across the league as being a loser franchise that no one wants to play for.

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  7. #266
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    Considering everything that's going on(new GM, probably new management team, probably new Coach etc) and considering the 2014 draft(deep in talent), this is a good time to tank. Yes it doesn't guarantee a franchise player but finishing as low as possible guarantees a good(if not great) pick and helps create financial flexibility. The team as it's composed now may not appeal to the GM anyway(not his team), so might as well strip it down, create some cap space and accumulate picks as much as possible. We've waited this long anyway, might as well wait another year. It'll be worth it.

    If any year is a good year to tank, this is.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  8. #267
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    How do you propose they "tank"? What's your blueprint?

  9. #268
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    How do you propose they "tank"? What's your blueprint?
    I don't mean to disregard your question AT ALL but having gone through this with another member before, I'm sincerely sorry but I prefer not to get into this.

    I know it's not satisfying enough but clearing up about 20 mil is definitely possible. Again I'm EXTREMELY SORRY.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  10. #269
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I don't mean to disregard your question AT ALL but having gone through this with another member before, I'm sincerely sorry but I prefer not to get into this.

    I know it's not satisfying enough but clearing up about 20 mil is definitely possible. Again I'm EXTREMELY SORRY.
    Maybe a different slant on the topic: what happens if through any of various reasons the raptors never get desired franchise player?

    Looking though last 10 drafts, in the top5 there really is only 1 franchise altering talent per year.

  11. #270
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I don't mean to disregard your question AT ALL but having gone through this with another member before, I'm sincerely sorry but I prefer not to get into this.

    I know it's not satisfying enough but clearing up about 20 mil is definitely possible. Again I'm EXTREMELY SORRY.
    I ask the question because what's been said in here only covers if everything goes right, which I assure you will not happen. See Matt's post above.

    So what is your backup plan? Gut and tank again and again until you hit the jackpot?

    Also, I'm unsure how I'm supposed to interpret the words entirely capitalized. Are you simply emphasizing them because you feel I would overlook them or is it sarcasm or something else?

  12. #271
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You're right, no one is saying that but what some frequent posters are suggesting is that tanking is the only way to get there. Do they explicitly say that? Probably not but reading their words one only can come to that conclusion as all other suggestions are shot down.



    I can guarantee you that it also doesn't help the team's reputation across the league as being a loser franchise that no one wants to play for.
    I certainly don't get that impression. I'm willing to bet that has alot more to do with perspective (pro tank vs anti tank) than whats actually being argued.

    And people as quickly shoot down the tanking option. (And do it with reasoning that applies to all forms of team building) So whats the difference exactly?


    This is the reality:

    The single biggest argument for tanking - it gives this team valuable assets (draft picks, rookie scale contracts, cap space). What the team can do with those valuable assets is the question.

    The single biggest argument against it - this team has valuable (enough) assets (players, cap space, picks, etc). Will those valuable assets be enough.

    I, and others, see #2 as the most unlikely of the two options. Its that simple.

    Has nothing to do with luck (or any more luck than any other way), nothing to do with guarantees, or anything to do with it being the only option.

  13. #272
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    What I want to know, is for the guys who don't think a proper rebuild is the way to go -- what do you think we should do?

    We're paying luxury tax this summer and we'll be over the cap for the next two seasons.

    I've read some interesting arguments, but let's hear some fresh ideas! Brainstorm away!
    your pal,
    ebrian

  14. #273
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    What I want to know, is for the guys who don't think a proper rebuild is the way to go -- what do you think we should do?

    We're paying luxury tax this summer and we'll be over the cap for the next two seasons.

    I've read some interesting arguments, but let's hear some fresh ideas! Brainstorm away!
    I'm ambivalent but I would suggest that people who want to compete sooner rather than later may want to look to the Houston model. The Rockets had no superstar to deal, they didn't tank, and they didn't do it through free agency. They made some shrew draft picks and trades and put themselves in a financial position to do a big trade (Harden) and sign another max FA when the situation was right.

    You can argue Morey walked into the perfect storm but he put himself in a position to capitalize on it.

  15. #274
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Maybe a different slant on the topic: what happens if through any of various reasons the raptors never get desired franchise player?

    Looking though last 10 drafts, in the top5 there really is only 1 franchise altering talent per year.
    They don't have to get a "desired franchise player". If they get a top 5 pick great but tanking guarantees a good pick, not a great one. To get a good player at least, the draft must be a good one. The 2014 draft promises to be one.

    Even if we get a Gay caliber player, Raps. will get him at a Rookie scale contract which will be at least 10 mil. less than what Gay is being paid. The cash at their disposal will enable them to pursue free agents who command contracts like 5 yr/60 mil as opposed to players like L Fields, Jack, Klieza etc, not that we don't need such players. Not specifically them but examples of such players are Nene, Millsap, Jefferson and Gallinari. The only such free agent they were able to sign was Turkoglu who unfortunately did not work out.
    Last edited by Eric Akshinthala; Tue May 28th, 2013 at 12:14 PM.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  16. #275
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Hinging on the perceived right place and right time X 2 or 3

    Tanking involves dumping current assets whether it be via trades for expiring contracts or letting said contracts expire.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    The single biggest argument for tanking - it gives this team valuable assets (draft picks, rookie scale contracts, cap space). What the team can do with those valuable assets is the question.
    What team can do with those valuable assets? I suppose any team that just gave away the farm.

    The Thunder dealt for a top five lotto pick(Jeff Green) by giving up an established star in the final years of his prime, along with a prospect with no certainty of being an impact player. As far as I can tell the Raptors have assets in the same valued ball park right now. Did you read something somewhere that suggested the Raptors were incapable of dealing for a lottery pick if the right player was available?(As opposed to blindly slashing in the hopes of getting the right pick, at the right time, to luck into drafting the right guy?)

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    The single biggest argument against it - this team has valuable (enough) assets (players, cap space, picks, etc). Will those valuable assets be enough.
    Enough for what? To make further moves to better the team by being patient and capitalizing on opportunities created via other teams' impatience and/or misfortunes? Sure.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Has nothing to do with luck (or any more luck than any other way), nothing to do with guarantees, or anything to do with it being the only option.
    Sure it has more to do with luck. One way you're dumping current assets in a hope that, first, the balls bounce your way. Second, the guy on your board is available when you pick and then finally that the guy works out. Oh and let's not forget this has to be repeated multiple times before you have the team you're expecting from such an investment in time, money and customers.


    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    What I want to know, is for the guys who don't think a proper rebuild is the way to go -- what do you think we should do?

    We're paying luxury tax this summer and we'll be over the cap for the next two seasons.

    I've read some interesting arguments, but let's hear some fresh ideas! Brainstorm away!
    Ujiri had a lot of success by being opportunistic and utilizing the assets on hand as opposed to throwing those away in an effort to clear cap to get draft picks and get into a bidding war for other players in FA. You can rebuild by using some of the current players on roster who fit the plan and by also moving those who don't for others that do when the opportunity presents itself.

    Using losing as a gateway to success only leads to more losing unless you get a lot more lucky breaks. I think the Raptors are more likely to remain a loser by striving to lose...

  17. #276
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I certainly don't get that impression. I'm willing to bet that has alot more to do with perspective (pro tank vs anti tank) than whats actually being argued.

    And people as quickly shoot down the tanking option. (And do it with reasoning that applies to all forms of team building) So whats the difference exactly?


    This is the reality:

    The single biggest argument for tanking - it gives this team valuable assets (draft picks, rookie scale contracts, cap space). What the team can do with those valuable assets is the question.

    The single biggest argument against it - this team has valuable (enough) assets (players, cap space, picks, etc). Will those valuable assets be enough.

    I, and others, see #2 as the most unlikely of the two options. Its that simple.

    Has nothing to do with luck (or any more luck than any other way), nothing to do with guarantees, or anything to do with it being the only option.

    I think a big reason why so many "quickly shoot down the tanking option" because none of the 4 teams remaining before last night (minus SA 16 years ago) tanked to get where they are.


    Here is another so called reality, if we all get to determine reality:

    If option #2 is so unlikely, then what would make one think the Raptors current assets can return such valuable assets as draft picks, rookie scale contracts, and expiring contracts/cap space?


    I think the bigger reality is nothing is as cut and dry with the current Raptors situation to think that staying the course, blowing it up, or tinkering will ensure success. Each path has its own perils. The 2011-12 attempt to tank is a good example of this: the Raptors ended up 1 spot out of a desired draft pick because other teams tanked better and harder.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #277
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Tanking involves dumping current assets whether it be via trades for expiring contracts or letting said contracts expire.



    What team can do with those valuable assets? I suppose any team that just gave away the farm.

    The Thunder dealt a top five lotto pick(Jeff Green) for an establish star in the final years of his prime, along with a prospect with no certainty of being an impact player. As far as I can tell the Raptors have assets in the same valued ball park right now. Did you read something somewhere that suggested the Raptors were incapable of dealing for a lottery pick if the right player was available?(As opposed to blindly slashing in the hopes of getting the right pick, at the right time, to luck into drafting the right guy?)



    Enough for what? To make further moves to better the team by being patient and capitalizing on opportunities created via other teams' impatience and/or misfortunes? Sure.



    Sure it has more to do with luck. One way you're dumping current assets in a hope that, first, the balls bounce your way. Second, the guy on your board is available when you pick and then finally that the guy works out. Oh and let's not forget this has to be repeated multiple times before you have the team you're expecting from such an investment in time, money and customers.
    and there we go again - right back to the circle of luck. Always luck. The fail safe of luck. And now its 'more lucky'... sigh.

    (you do realize those two ideas I posted were rhetorical right?)

  19. #278
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    If we want to tank, we're not going to be the only team that does that. It's gonna be a tanking fight.

    I think it's high time that the lottery system is changed. Each year you have about 25% of the league trying to tank, probably more at the end of the season. It's not good for a competitive league.

    For all the discussion here about tanking or not and the worth of tanking, I don't think there is even a slight chance that this will be the plan that Leiweke and the new gm will come up with, after five years of not making the play-offs. They will want some results, so another route will be taken. It's just not going to happen.

  20. #279
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Considering everything that's going on(new GM, probably new management team, probably new Coach etc) and considering the 2014 draft(deep in talent), this is a good time to tank. Yes it doesn't guarantee a franchise player but finishing as low as possible guarantees a good(if not great) pick and helps create financial flexibility. The team as it's composed now may not appeal to the GM anyway(not his team), so might as well strip it down, create some cap space and accumulate picks as much as possible. We've waited this long anyway, might as well wait another year. It'll be worth it.

    If any year is a good year to tank, this is.
    Completely agree with this. Keep JV, and any other good contracts and purge the rest for cap space and picks.

  21. #280
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I'm ambivalent but I would suggest that people who want to compete sooner rather than later may want to look to the Houston model. The Rockets had no superstar to deal, they didn't tank, and they didn't do it through free agency. They made some shrew draft picks and trades and put themselves in a financial position to do a big trade (Harden) and sign another max FA when the situation was right.

    You can argue Morey walked into the perfect storm but he put himself in a position to capitalize on it.
    Houston may not have done a proper rebuild, but if that isn't a blow-up, I don't know what is.

    -traded Chase Budinger and a future 2nd rounder for a first round pick (Terrence Jones)
    -drafted Jeremy Lamb
    -drafted Royce White
    -traded Samuel Dalembert and the 14th pick for the 12th pick
    -traded Lowry for our first round pick
    -traded Camby for Toney Douglas and 2 2nd round picks
    -signed Jeremy Lin
    -signed Omer Asik
    -traded Courtney Lee for another 2nd round pick
    -signed Carlos Delfino
    -traded Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, two future 1st round picks, a second rounder James Harden

    Basically from the starting lineup from one season to the next, only Chandler Parsons survived.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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