View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tanker

    12 32.43%
  • Tweaker

    25 67.57%
Page 17 of 46 FirstFirst ... 7 15 16 17 18 19 27 ... LastLast
Results 321 to 340 of 919

Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #321
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'm allergic to intentional losing. I would no longer be a Raptors fan if they went that route
    You'll be back. They always come back.

  2. #322
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,169
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors have an opportunity to get to respectability in the next 2 years and have all sorts of flexibility to contend after that. It is going to be much easier to make use of the cap space from a position of respectability versus bottom-feeder.
    How do you see things unfolding over the next couple of years that will bring us to a point of repectability though? By all accounts that should have happened this season, but did not. A lot of things need to go right for us to keep this core and be respectable. For all the talk about how tanking won't necessarily land you a top pick and a lot needs to go correctly to land a good pick it should be considered that just as much good fortune would need to go into all the parts of this team coming together to be competetive. And what is the ceiling? 4th to 6th seed? And then in two years is Toronto going to be a hot destination for an elite level player to come play for and put us over the top? That's a lot of good fortune we are hoping for.

    I was just thinking about the Indiana blue print which I think most here whom don't want to see a tank job, would like to see the Raptors follow. It's based on having a lot of good players, but none that are outstanding ie., not the type of players we are hoping to land through the draft. Very similar to Detroit when they made their run. However that Detroit team is now a bottom feeder because they had no elite level player(s) to build around. Think about all of the teams in the last decade or even further back. Chicago with MJ, Houston with Hakeem, Lakers with Kobe, Spurs with Duncan...these teams were all built around elite level players and they were able to not make a single run, but multiple runs. That should be what we are aiming to do, not put together scrap parts to be respectable, imo.

  3. Like Fully liked this post
  4. #323
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,022
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I'm confused as to how the discussion went from proper rebuilding to tanking. Somewhere along the way someone against proper rebuilding changed the topic to being against tanking, and then everyone against tanking jumped in and used teams like Charlotte and New Orleans to prove that tanking doesn't work.

    Congratulations, I agree tanking sucks. But the Raptors still need to properly rebuild. Someone said they thought the Raptors have the bones of a good team. Really? We won 34 games, and we have the bones of a good team? Unless you mean we own a pinky fingernail, then I don't understand how in a month's time after our 34th win, people suddenly turned into harbingers of optimism.

    What's even more astounding is that we're in the middle of the playoffs, where we are literally watching teams who did it right. I mean I understand we've rid ourselves of Colangelo, but this is still the same team that won 34 games, has no cap space and no draft picks.
    I've been seeing a lot of this "34 win team" thing, implying we'd be going into next season with the same team that only won 34. IMO, it's a twisted use of the win column number. There's a multitude of reasons the revolving door team (multiple injuries, then the trade created soooooo many different line-ups) that scrambled together those wins is not the same team that will begin next season.

    I won't spend the time to detail it all, but Jose and ED are gone, AB will soon be. We started the year with 3 rookies (they won't be different/better???), 2 other NEW key players in Lowry, who was nursing his two early injuries all year, and Fields who began the year as a damaged goods starting SF. It's reasonable to expect all of these guys to produce better next year. As hungry as this team has been, for so long, for a SF that could make a difference, we finally got one in Gay, though he barely had the time to say hello to all his teammates, while struggling with an eyesight issue. It's more than reasonable to expect that both hardworking DD and Amir will continue to improve.

    What exactly do you consider a "proper rebuild"? I know I consider putting a collection of young talent together, then letting them grow together is a big part of what I envision when I think of that term. Of the following key players (my opinion) moving forward (even if 1 or 2 end up being moved for better fits) they are all young, talented, and only 2 ever played together on this team before last season, and due to injuries and late season trade, barely played together last season: JV (21), Gay (26), DD (23), Lowry (27), Fields (24), Ross (22), Amir (26), Acy (22). I'd say there's good reason to believe most of these players will improve individually next year, and that all of them will be better in knowing how to play with each other, which is a much bigger thing at this level than many seem to understand. I see a rebuild, with young players, very much in progress, in it's early stages, but I'm interested in knowing what you feel a "proper rebuild" is, that isn't happening, unless you think tanking for a Wiggins prayer is the answer.

    We need a serviceable (minimum) PF/C and a backup PG, but I see reason for great optimism. I would think that AB can return at least one of those. Will they be "contenders" next year? Of course not, but remember that the Pacers, with almost the exact same team were 1st round fodder 2 years ago, went out in the 2nd round last year, and look where they are this year. We finally have a decent TEAM of YOUNG TALENT, first round picks next year and beyond, and I think that with good management and coaching, they're well on the way to a proper rebuild.

  5. #324
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    2,247
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I've been seeing a lot of this "34 win team" thing, implying we'd be going into next season with the same team that only won 34. IMO, it's a twisted use of the win column number. There's a multitude of reasons the revolving door team (multiple injuries, then the trade created soooooo many different line-ups) that scrambled together those wins is not the same team that will begin next season.

    I won't spend the time to detail it all, but Jose and ED are gone, AB will soon be. We started the year with 3 rookies (they won't be different/better???), 2 other NEW key players in Lowry, who was nursing his two early injuries all year, and Fields who began the year as a damaged goods starting SF. It's reasonable to expect all of these guys to produce better next year. As hungry as this team has been, for so long, for a SF that could make a difference, we finally got one in Gay, though he barely had the time to say hello to all his teammates, while struggling with an eyesight issue. It's more than reasonable to expect that both hardworking DD and Amir will continue to improve.

    What exactly do you consider a "proper rebuild"? I know I consider putting a collection of young talent together, then letting them grow together is a big part of what I envision when I think of that term. Of the following key players (my opinion) moving forward (even if 1 or 2 end up being moved for better fits) they are all young, talented, and only 2 ever played together on this team before last season, and due to injuries and late season trade, barely played together last season: JV (21), Gay (26), DD (23), Lowry (27), Fields (24), Ross (22), Amir (26), Acy (22). I'd say there's good reason to believe most of these players will improve individually next year, and that all of them will be better in knowing how to play with each other, which is a much bigger thing at this level than many seem to understand. I see a rebuild, with young players, very much in progress, in it's early stages, but I'm interested in knowing what you feel a "proper rebuild" is, that isn't happening, unless you think tanking for a Wiggins prayer is the answer.

    We need a serviceable (minimum) PF/C and a backup PG, but I see reason for great optimism. I would think that AB can return at least one of those. Will they be "contenders" next year? Of course not, but remember that the Pacers, with almost the exact same team were 1st round fodder 2 years ago, went out in the 2nd round last year, and look where they are this year. We finally have a decent TEAM of YOUNG TALENT, first round picks next year and beyond, and I think that with good management and coaching, they're well on the way to a proper rebuild.
    Good post, kind of refreshing hearing some optimism about the current roster. I really hope you're right about the team being on a good path for the future.

    I also understand the viewpoint of accumulating young talent via draft instead of the current rebuild. I'm usually on board with the draft/tanking procedure, but the Raptors have already taken a different route (although they did get a few of their assets via draft). I'm just going to hope the new GM will find a way to make this work..

  6. #325
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I've been seeing a lot of this "34 win team" thing, implying we'd be going into next season with the same team that only won 34. IMO, it's a twisted use of the win column number. There's a multitude of reasons the revolving door team (multiple injuries, then the trade created soooooo many different line-ups) that scrambled together those wins is not the same team that will begin next season.

    I won't spend the time to detail it all, but Jose and ED are gone, AB will soon be. We started the year with 3 rookies (they won't be different/better???), 2 other NEW key players in Lowry, who was nursing his two early injuries all year, and Fields who began the year as a damaged goods starting SF. It's reasonable to expect all of these guys to produce better next year. As hungry as this team has been, for so long, for a SF that could make a difference, we finally got one in Gay, though he barely had the time to say hello to all his teammates, while struggling with an eyesight issue. It's more than reasonable to expect that both hardworking DD and Amir will continue to improve.

    What exactly do you consider a "proper rebuild"? I know I consider putting a collection of young talent together, then letting them grow together is a big part of what I envision when I think of that term. Of the following key players (my opinion) moving forward (even if 1 or 2 end up being moved for better fits) they are all young, talented, and only 2 ever played together on this team before last season, and due to injuries and late season trade, barely played together last season: JV (21), Gay (26), DD (23), Lowry (27), Fields (24), Ross (22), Amir (26), Acy (22). I'd say there's good reason to believe most of these players will improve individually next year, and that all of them will be better in knowing how to play with each other, which is a much bigger thing at this level than many seem to understand. I see a rebuild, with young players, very much in progress, in it's early stages, but I'm interested in knowing what you feel a "proper rebuild" is, that isn't happening, unless you think tanking for a Wiggins prayer is the answer.

    We need a serviceable (minimum) PF/C and a backup PG, but I see reason for great optimism. I would think that AB can return at least one of those. Will they be "contenders" next year? Of course not, but remember that the Pacers, with almost the exact same team were 1st round fodder 2 years ago, went out in the 2nd round last year, and look where they are this year. We finally have a decent TEAM of YOUNG TALENT, first round picks next year and beyond, and I think that with good management and coaching, they're well on the way to a proper rebuild.
    I think Raptors fans are also unfamiliar with how a well managed team can keep "building on the fly", so to speak. For the first time in....ever?....the Raptors have some talent at every position, even if it all doesn't fit well (with PF being the most lacking, obviously, but Amir is a legit NBA big and easily part of any 3-man rotation). That is not a bad position to be in. It is not necessary to tank again, to blow it up and stockpile picks and young assets.

    The team has young assets. This team is absolutely more "talented" than the 47-win team around Bosh. Not saying they can perform better, because having savvy veterans (Rasho, Garbo, Parker, Mo Pete) is very helpful. But they can definitely keep working on winning (instead of tanking), and they definitely have pieces that can actually bring back interesting assets. What this team needs to do is move forward carefully....The new GM can't aggressively dump players. He needs to evaluate them properly. One or two careful moves, and this team could have a legit top-tier core. People talk about team-building like you need a pile of first round picks to create a young core...you only need 2-3 high-calibre players that fit together and can be kept together for a few years. JV and Gay could be part of that core...though personally I'm not the biggest Gay fan and if he's here long term, his next contract better take a serious cut. But add a top-tier PF or guard to those 2, and that could be the core of a top-seeded playoff team for years.

    I understand the "blow it up" mentality...but realistically, I don't think the Raps can do that moving into next season. Maybe in Gay's last year, when they have several expiring deals, and JV will still be young and on his rookie deal. It would be their last chance to "tank" for 2015...and maybe the next season after as well....to add high draft picks next to JV, and clear some capspace. But again, that should only be done if things REALLY fall apart and they vastly underachieve. Right now, "blowing it up" seems like an overly pessimistic view....as if this is the roster built around Bargs-DeMar-Jose that BC said he would "retool" around....no...this is different. This core actually has a fair amount of talent...it just isn't the best group fit-wise on paper.

    Again, I just think that patiently making moves, one at a time, could easily morph this team into a pretty strong club in the next 2-3 years. It'll be up to the new GM to maximize his assets...and I don't think blowing it up and ditching guys for caprelief and/or picks is maximizing any asset this team currently has (Bargs and Fields are the only ones with super low value). Anyone else should be worth something, where alone they could bring necessary small adjustments, or combined they could bring in a high-calibre player.

  7. Like jimmie, p00ka liked this post
  8. #326
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    How do you see things unfolding over the next couple of years that will bring us to a point of repectability though? By all accounts that should have happened this season, but did not. A lot of things need to go right for us to keep this core and be respectable. For all the talk about how tanking won't necessarily land you a top pick and a lot needs to go correctly to land a good pick it should be considered that just as much good fortune would need to go into all the parts of this team coming together to be competetive. And what is the ceiling? 4th to 6th seed? And then in two years is Toronto going to be a hot destination for an elite level player to come play for and put us over the top? That's a lot of good fortune we are hoping for.
    I think it is safe to say Colangelo had some meddling going on with Casey - I have nothing to back that up with other than innuendo and rumours. Colangelo is now gone. I wonder what would have happened had Casey not been the obedient soldier Colangelo expected of him. Also, this last season was a season of inconsistency and upheaval. From "come hell or high water" to "lets clone Jose in to Lowry" to "the trade" the season was uneven at best. Despite this they finished 3 wins out of the playoffs albeit with an #AprilFoolsGold run. I think there has been a lot of confusion from management on down the last 2 seasons about what type of team the Raptors were expected to be with a lot of lip service paid to defense, accountability, and winning culture. With Colangelo no longer running basketball ops the hope I have is consistency, patience towards building, and finding pieces that fit the build/vision.

    A lot of good things do need to be right with THIS core. However, if you trade a couple of core pieces for pieces that better fit or obtain other assets suddenly things change. The Raptors have good pieces to work with, all of them don't fit together nicely is the problem.

    As for how I see things unfolding, I've laid out numerous hypothetical situations with all have the common thread of obtaining prospects, picks, and expiring contracts for DeRozan, Bargnani, and possibly Lowry.

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I was just thinking about the Indiana blue print which I think most here whom don't want to see a tank job, would like to see the Raptors follow. It's based on having a lot of good players, but none that are outstanding ie., not the type of players we are hoping to land through the draft. Very similar to Detroit when they made their run. However that Detroit team is now a bottom feeder because they had no elite level player(s) to build around. Think about all of the teams in the last decade or even further back. Chicago with MJ, Houston with Hakeem, Lakers with Kobe, Spurs with Duncan...these teams were all built around elite level players and they were able to not make a single run, but multiple runs. That should be what we are aiming to do, not put together scrap parts to be respectable, imo.
    I don't think Indiana to Detroit is a fair comparison. Position by position the edge goes to the Pistons except SF and on offense at C. Detroit is a bottom feeder because Dumars traded Billups for Iverson and then killed their cap situation with Gordon and Charlie V in free agency.

    You example of great players leads us back to the same discussion: you put all your eggs in one basket to get a franchise player at the top of the draft hoping balls line up, talent is available in draft year, and franchise talent is available when you turn to pick comes up then you hope you can make the franchise respectable after years of losing to ensure the talent does not leave at first chance.... no thanks.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed May 29th, 2013 at 11:15 AM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #327
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I think Raptors fans are also unfamiliar with how a well managed team can keep "building on the fly", so to speak. For the first time in....ever?....the Raptors have some talent at every position, even if it all doesn't fit well (with PF being the most lacking, obviously, but Amir is a legit NBA big and easily part of any 3-man rotation). That is not a bad position to be in. It is not necessary to tank again, to blow it up and stockpile picks and young assets.

    The team has young assets. This team is absolutely more "talented" than the 47-win team around Bosh. Not saying they can perform better, because having savvy veterans (Rasho, Garbo, Parker, Mo Pete) is very helpful. But they can definitely keep working on winning (instead of tanking), and they definitely have pieces that can actually bring back interesting assets. What this team needs to do is move forward carefully....The new GM can't aggressively dump players. He needs to evaluate them properly. One or two careful moves, and this team could have a legit top-tier core. People talk about team-building like you need a pile of first round picks to create a young core...you only need 2-3 high-calibre players that fit together and can be kept together for a few years. JV and Gay could be part of that core...though personally I'm not the biggest Gay fan and if he's here long term, his next contract better take a serious cut. But add a top-tier PF or guard to those 2, and that could be the core of a top-seeded playoff team for years.

    I understand the "blow it up" mentality...but realistically, I don't think the Raps can do that moving into next season. Maybe in Gay's last year, when they have several expiring deals, and JV will still be young and on his rookie deal. It would be their last chance to "tank" for 2015...and maybe the next season after as well....to add high draft picks next to JV, and clear some capspace. But again, that should only be done if things REALLY fall apart and they vastly underachieve. Right now, "blowing it up" seems like an overly pessimistic view....as if this is the roster built around Bargs-DeMar-Jose that BC said he would "retool" around....no...this is different. This core actually has a fair amount of talent...it just isn't the best group fit-wise on paper.

    Again, I just think that patiently making moves, one at a time, could easily morph this team into a pretty strong club in the next 2-3 years. It'll be up to the new GM to maximize his assets...and I don't think blowing it up and ditching guys for caprelief and/or picks is maximizing any asset this team currently has (Bargs and Fields are the only ones with super low value). Anyone else should be worth something, where alone they could bring necessary small adjustments, or combined they could bring in a high-calibre player.
    I agree with almost all of this. I probably disagree on who = "the core" of an eventual championship-contending Raptors team, but the strategy itself, definitely agree.

    For instance, I still have a hard time understanding the majority willing to give Gay the benefit of the doubt in terms of being the SF of the future on this team. He's drastically overpaid against production, and will demand equal or higher money to re-sign. Personally, the 2nd part of that sentence would spell his doom in TO if I were the GM. That money is going to come in handy in other places around the same time: flex for JV's new contract, keeping Lowry (although I'd look closely at that situation as well, for similar reasons), etc.

    Generally speaking, though, rebuilding can and should be done, IMO, via incremental moves with a view to a (much) bigger, longer-term picture. As fans, we tend to look at next season; as management, I'd hope TL and the new GM will be more focused on an eventual championship team, and make moves now that will build toward that.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  10. #328
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I agree with almost all of this. I probably disagree on who = "the core" of an eventual championship-contending Raptors team, but the strategy itself, definitely agree.

    For instance, I still have a hard time understanding the majority willing to give Gay the benefit of the doubt in terms of being the SF of the future on this team. He's drastically overpaid against production, and will demand equal or higher money to re-sign. Personally, the 2nd part of that sentence would spell his doom in TO if I were the GM. That money is going to come in handy in other places around the same time: flex for JV's new contract, keeping Lowry (although I'd look closely at that situation as well, for similar reasons), etc.

    Generally speaking, though, rebuilding can and should be done, IMO, via incremental moves with a view to a (much) bigger, longer-term picture. As fans, we tend to look at next season; as management, I'd hope TL and the new GM will be more focused on an eventual championship team, and make moves now that will build toward that.
    I agree with the first part of the bold, but not the second. I do think Gay is overpaid, but I also think there's no NBA team in the league that would consider giving him the same or more money. The number I'm ok with to re-sign him at, is at most, 10-12 million on a 2-3 year contract. He has the skills you want from a SF, and he performs at a pretty high level. He's not efficient or consistent enough to make franchise player money though.

    I think Gay could be the SF on a contender. For instance, I don't think he would've hurt Memphis' playoff run at all this season, and might've been extremely valuable, even as a decoy that the D has to pay attention to, against San Antonio.

    The problem with Gay is that he probably can't be in the top 2 players on your team, impact-wise. I think JV will be a better player in terms of impact. I also think the team has pieces to shop for another piece like that. But then in order for it to make sense to keep Gay, he has to take a paycut. This is where a new GM is crucial. There are several options I'd be ok with for Gay. Like I said, for 2-3 years, I might be fine with 10-12 per. I'd also be interested in other options like frontloading it on a longer deal so that he becomes easier and easier to trade. Or maybe a longer deal that just shaves a bit off the yearly average, but still is too lucrative for him to pass up in total dollars over a shorter deal with less security.

  11. Like p00ka liked this post
  12. #329
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,022
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    On the other hand, if Gay plays well enough for the next couple of years that he can even contemplate demanding equal or greater money without being laughed at, us Raps' fans will have a lot to cheer about for those 2 years.

  13. #330
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I agree with the first part of the bold, but not the second. I do think Gay is overpaid, but I also think there's no NBA team in the league that would consider giving him the same or more money. The number I'm ok with to re-sign him at, is at most, 10-12 million on a 2-3 year contract. He has the skills you want from a SF, and he performs at a pretty high level. He's not efficient or consistent enough to make franchise player money though.

    I think Gay could be the SF on a contender. For instance, I don't think he would've hurt Memphis' playoff run at all this season, and might've been extremely valuable, even as a decoy that the D has to pay attention to, against San Antonio.

    The problem with Gay is that he probably can't be in the top 2 players on your team, impact-wise. I think JV will be a better player in terms of impact. I also think the team has pieces to shop for another piece like that. But then in order for it to make sense to keep Gay, he has to take a paycut. This is where a new GM is crucial. There are several options I'd be ok with for Gay. Like I said, for 2-3 years, I might be fine with 10-12 per. I'd also be interested in other options like frontloading it on a longer deal so that he becomes easier and easier to trade. Or maybe a longer deal that just shaves a bit off the yearly average, but still is too lucrative for him to pass up in total dollars over a shorter deal with less security.
    OK, if that's the number (10-12 over 2-3) TO will offer and if he will accept, I can get on board. Otherwise, I'd rather pay $9.5M for Derozan, who wouldn't necessarily be playing under the assumption that he's got carte blanche as the alpha dog (this is what I saw from Gay in TO this year; and I don't blame him, b/c I have little doubt that's the bill of goods Colangelo sold him).

    I'm skeptical that Rudy won't be offered more than $12M by some team, however. I know that teams are supposedly being more financially prudent these days, but there's not a ton of evidence to support that notion. Teams are still overpaying for value.

    I absolutely agree he can be a starting SF on a contender -- but not someone the offense should run through or who should be getting volume shots because he's the top dog. Which makes it super-important to put him in the role NOW that you want him to be in when the team is contending. Need to see if he can accept/adapt to being a 3rd wheel, which he didn't seem happy doing in Memphis... If he can't adjust to where he fits in the long-term, big scheme, then they know he has to be moved ASAP for best possible return (and I realize "ASAP" might be in 14/15 when he's expiring, but they can theoretically move him any time).
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  14. #331
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,975
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    How do you convince Gay to play the role of the 3rd option if he's currently the best offensive player on the roster?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #332
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I agree with the first part of the bold, but not the second. I do think Gay is overpaid, but I also think there's no NBA team in the league that would consider giving him the same or more money. The number I'm ok with to re-sign him at, is at most, 10-12 million on a 2-3 year contract. He has the skills you want from a SF, and he performs at a pretty high level. He's not efficient or consistent enough to make franchise player money though.

    I think Gay could be the SF on a contender. For instance, I don't think he would've hurt Memphis' playoff run at all this season, and might've been extremely valuable, even as a decoy that the D has to pay attention to, against San Antonio.

    The problem with Gay is that he probably can't be in the top 2 players on your team, impact-wise. I think JV will be a better player in terms of impact. I also think the team has pieces to shop for another piece like that. But then in order for it to make sense to keep Gay, he has to take a paycut. This is where a new GM is crucial. There are several options I'd be ok with for Gay. Like I said, for 2-3 years, I might be fine with 10-12 per. I'd also be interested in other options like frontloading it on a longer deal so that he becomes easier and easier to trade. Or maybe a longer deal that just shaves a bit off the yearly average, but still is too lucrative for him to pass up in total dollars over a shorter deal with less security.
    4 years is what Gay will be looking for from anyone and will get.

    I think 4 years/$48M is fair market. I would aim to structure it as $14/12.5/11/9.5 to coincide with his likely decline in abilities and ending of rookie scale contracts.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #333
    Raptors Republic Rookie RAPTORNATION's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm not comparing him to lebron, durantula, or Carmelo but he's a top sf in this league and I can't think of any team in this league where he would or should be the third offensive option

  17. #334
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,098
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote RAPTORNATION wrote: View Post
    I'm not comparing him to lebron, durantula, or Carmelo but he's a top sf in this league and I can't think of any team in this league where he would or should be the third offensive option
    Thunder, Nuggets, Blazers, Spurs, Grizzlies, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors, Lakers, Pacers, Celtics, Nets, Heat. There may be others but that's about half the league....

    Nothing against Gay, he's a decent player. But he's not worth what they're paying him and he's not a #1 or #2 option on a good team. He's been around for 7 years. This isn't exactly a revelation.

  18. #335
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    How do you convince Gay to play the role of the 3rd option if he's currently the best offensive player on the roster?
    First off, talking top 2-3 players. That doesn't necessarily have to mean offensive options. If somehow the Raptors traded for Rondo, Gay would still be the primary perimeter scorer and probably get more touches than anybody else. Heck, even if it was a PF like Love, Gay would still be in that situation.

    Second off, You don't convince anybody of anything. You get the pieces you want. If you get someone who's a better scorer than Gay, and he has a problem with that, you trade him. It's not even a discussion. Gay has to recognize the role he's capable of playing on a successful team. I don't think Gay is blind to this.

    *Edit...Successful teams use multiple threats from different points of attack. Will Gay be considered the 2nd option if JV grows into a more productive player? Or will we just call them the top 2 options?....

    The lesson? As long as guys play smart and put egos aside, who the #1 option is will never be a problem, because they'll recognize who should be the #1 option depending on opponent and situation. And it is, in fact, easier to be a good team when there is less of a distinction/gap between your top 2-3 options, because if there's a clear #1 guy (like Melo or Durant in these playoffs), it is very easy to gameplan against.

    **seriously people talk about stars and big 3s....but a common factor in all championship teams is the putting aside of egos. It doesn't matter if you have a great top 3 if they don't know how to do that and play the game to win instead of for themselves. Think any team, from the always modest Spurs, to the big 3 led Celtics or Heat. The putting aside of egos, in Boston's case to spread the wealth, in Miami's case, for Wade to fully defer to LeBron, was critical.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed May 29th, 2013 at 03:44 PM.

  19. #336
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    4 years is what Gay will be looking for from anyone and will get.

    I think 4 years/$48M is fair market. I would aim to structure it as $14/12.5/11/9.5 to coincide with his likely decline in abilities and ending of rookie scale contracts.
    yeah, I would be totally fine with something like that. It's a paycut, but a gradual one, and I think a fair one. He'll be 29 when he signs it (I think), so by the end of his deal he's unlikely to be worth the same as the start.

  20. #337
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    yeah, I would be totally fine with something like that. It's a paycut, but a gradual one, and I think a fair one. He'll be 29 when he signs it (I think), so by the end of his deal he's unlikely to be worth the same as the start.
    I think it's fair, too. Which is why I suspect an NBA player would think it's unfair. It's a 30% pay cut for someone who isn't doing anything markedly better or worse than they have for the past 7 years. Why would he expect a pay cut, especially to play for Toronto, who he thought had brought him in to save the day?

    My thought: He's going to ask for no less than $15M/4 years as a starting point; his agent would be an idiot not to ask for something in that range. "My client has been paid 16.5M to bring his unique skillset to the table, and under the current NBA fiscal situation, is willing to take a modest pay cut in his next contract, blah, blah, blah..." Toronto offers $12M/3 years. 'Some other team' counters with 12.5/4, or 14/2. 'Some other team' might be closer to championship contention. Gay now has a choice, and a bargaining position. What then?

    If you accept that my scenario is a possible play-out, then you have to consider moving him unless you're 100% sure he's going to be a key factor in getting this team to the promised land. Otherwise, it's "losing an asset for nothing" time again, albeit not on the Bosh scale...
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  21. #338
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I think it's fair, too. Which is why I suspect an NBA player would think it's unfair. It's a 30% pay cut for someone who isn't doing anything markedly better or worse than they have for the past 7 years. Why would he expect a pay cut, especially to play for Toronto, who he thought had brought him in to save the day?

    My thought: He's going to ask for no less than $15M/4 years as a starting point; his agent would be an idiot not to ask for something in that range. "My client has been paid 16.5M to bring his unique skillset to the table, and under the current NBA fiscal situation, is willing to take a modest pay cut in his next contract, blah, blah, blah..." Toronto offers $12M/3 years. 'Some other team' counters with 12.5/4, or 14/2. 'Some other team' might be closer to championship contention. Gay now has a choice, and a bargaining position. What then?

    If you accept that my scenario is a possible play-out, then you have to consider moving him unless you're 100% sure he's going to be a key factor in getting this team to the promised land. Otherwise, it's "losing an asset for nothing" time again, albeit not on the Bosh scale...
    Ok, well he can ask for anything he goddamn wants, doesn't mean he's going to get it. I'd be shocked if another team thinks a 29 year old SF (who still hasn't made a single all-star game) is a 14 million dollar a season piece.

    But also...There's absolutely no reason the team has to lose an asset for nothing. With Gay, he could easily be part of a winning core, so he's certainly not a player they should just dump to blow it up. That's what I was getting at. They have 2 seasons to evaluate him and decide how he fits. They should know well before his contract expires whether he figures into their long term plans, and thus have time to explore trade options that make sense. Whether this is because he doesn't fit, doesnt' agree to an extension, or overachieves in the franchise's eyes so that they think he'll get a bigger offer than he deserves...it really doesn't matter what the reason is.

    Also, finally, I'd like to point out that the 30% paycut makes sense, because the contract he signed with the Grizzlies was a "potential" contract, where they gave him max money thinking(or hoping) he'd become a legit max player. So the fact that he isn't markedly better is something that will absolutely ensure he makes less money.

  22. #339
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,087
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Ok, well he can ask for anything he goddamn wants, doesn't mean he's going to get it. I'd be shocked if another team thinks a 29 year old SF (who still hasn't made a single all-star game) is a 14 million dollar a season piece.

    But also...There's absolutely no reason the team has to lose an asset for nothing. With Gay, he could easily be part of a winning core, so he's certainly not a player they should just dump to blow it up. That's what I was getting at. They have 2 seasons to evaluate him and decide how he fits. They should know well before his contract expires whether he figures into their long term plans, and thus have time to explore trade options that make sense. Whether this is because he doesn't fit, doesnt' agree to an extension, or overachieves in the franchise's eyes so that they think he'll get a bigger offer than he deserves...it really doesn't matter what the reason is.

    Also, finally, I'd like to point out that the 30% paycut makes sense, because the contract he signed with the Grizzlies was a "potential" contract, where they gave him max money thinking(or hoping) he'd become a legit max player. So the fact that he isn't markedly better is something that will absolutely ensure he makes less money.
    You know, I agree with the premise but...... Joe Johnson was in the same boat and we know how that ends. Maybe the new CBA curtails recklessness. Maybe if the Raptors are respectable and on the verge of contending he does what I threw out earlier. But if the Raptors are still a bottom feeder, it will be all about the $$$.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #340
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You know, I agree with the premise but...... Joe Johnson was in the same boat and we know how that ends. Maybe the new CBA curtails recklessness. Maybe if the Raptors are respectable and on the verge of contending he does what I threw out earlier. But if the Raptors are still a bottom feeder, it will be all about the $$$.
    If the Raptors are still a bottom feeder, you trade him before the deadline, because if they are that in 2 seasons, Gay is clearly not at all capable of having the impact we hope.

    *Oh, and also Johnson so far is a 6 time all-star...not quite the same boat
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed May 29th, 2013 at 04:31 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •