View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
Page 18 of 47 FirstFirst ... 8 16 17 18 19 20 28 ... LastLast
Results 341 to 360 of 932

Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #341
    Raptors Republic Rookie RAPTORNATION's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    26
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    RAPTORNATION wrote:

    I'm not comparing him to lebron, durantula, or Carmelo but he's a top sf in this league and I can't think of any team in this league where he would or should be the third offensive option


    Thunder, Nuggets, Blazers, Spurs, Grizzlies, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors, Lakers, Pacers, Celtics, Nets, Heat. There may be others but that's about half the league....



    Nothing against Gay, he's a decent player. But he's not worth what they're paying him and he's not a #1 or #2 option on a good team. He's been around for 7 years. This isn't exactly a revelation.

    Maybe I have the wrong idea in mind when I think of offensive options but the factors I put in when considering it are ball handling time, shots attempts, go to player in clutch time, etc. Many of those teams have elite sgs and sfs in which Rudy would be the second option but not third. Any team Rudy gay is on he will be first or second option because that is where his value is at. He may be a slightly above average defender but teams pay for his offensive ability.

    Edit: sorry my phones formatting is messed up I tried to respond to a quote

  2. #342
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    2,244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Thunder, Nuggets, Blazers, Spurs, Grizzlies, Rockets, Clippers, Warriors, Lakers, Pacers, Celtics, Nets, Heat. There may be others but that's about half the league....

    Nothing against Gay, he's a decent player. But he's not worth what they're paying him and he's not a #1 or #2 option on a good team. He's been around for 7 years. This isn't exactly a revelation.
    He was the top scorer for the Grizzlies, and they were one of the best in the West, even with him

  3. #343
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think it is safe to say Colangelo had some meddling going on with Casey - I have nothing to back that up with other than innuendo and rumours. Colangelo is now gone. I wonder what would have happened had Casey not been the obedient soldier Colangelo expected of him. Also, this last season was a season of inconsistency and upheaval. From "come hell or high water" to "lets clone Jose in to Lowry" to "the trade" the season was uneven at best. Despite this they finished 3 wins out of the playoffs albeit with an #AprilFoolsGold run. I think there has been a lot of confusion from management on down the last 2 seasons about what type of team the Raptors were expected to be with a lot of lip service paid to defense, accountability, and winning culture. With Colangelo no longer running basketball ops the hope I have is consistency, patience towards building, and finding pieces that fit the build/vision.

    A lot of good things do need to be right with THIS core. However, if you trade a couple of core pieces for pieces that better fit or obtain other assets suddenly things change. The Raptors have good pieces to work with, all of them don't fit together nicely is the problem.

    As for how I see things unfolding, I've laid out numerous hypothetical situations with all have the common thread of obtaining prospects, picks, and expiring contracts for DeRozan, Bargnani, and possibly Lowry.



    I don't think Indiana to Detroit is a fair comparison. Position by position the edge goes to the Pistons except SF and on offense at C. Detroit is a bottom feeder because Dumars traded Billups for Iverson and then killed their cap situation with Gordon and Charlie V in free agency.

    You example of great players leads us back to the same discussion: you put all your eggs in one basket to get a franchise player at the top of the draft hoping balls line up, talent is available in draft year, and franchise talent is available when you turn to pick comes up then you hope you can make the franchise respectable after years of losing to ensure the talent does not leave at first chance.... no thanks.
    I guess it's an agree to disagree situation. I think the Detroit/Indiana comparison is fair. The point I was trying to make is that Detroit was not able to sustain it's championship run the way a team with an elite player to build around is able to do so. Where as teams like San Antonio and the Lakers whom got lucky with talented players that managed to stay healthy for most of their careers were able to sustain it. I fully expect that Indiana will not be able to stay this competetive for a considerable duration.

  4. #344
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Another thing to consider about players not wanting to play for a team that consistantly tanks/loses is the Clippers example. Years for bottom dwelling until they hit it big in the draft with Griffin, and they manage to sign Chris Paul, no less after just one year of the Griffin era. I think too much emphasis is being put on players not wanting to play for a team that loses consistantly. Players are like fans, when the the team does well they will always come back like they never left.

  5. Like Fully liked this post
  6. #345
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,759
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I guess it's an agree to disagree situation. I think the Detroit/Indiana comparison is fair. The point I was trying to make is that Detroit was not able to sustain it's championship run the way a team with an elite player to build around is able to do so. Where as teams like San Antonio and the Lakers whom got lucky with talented players that managed to stay healthy for most of their careers were able to sustain it. I fully expect that Indiana will not be able to stay this competetive for a considerable duration.
    I think it depends how long West plays at this level and what his subsequent replacement does. The pacers are young and George is only getting better.

  7. #346
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    So Jerryd Bayless and Nate Robinson are likely to be free agents this summer... add that to the potential back up pg board, if Raps land Ujiri he will look at the team and want to shape them into a fast breaking team and will want to make sure whoever who comes off the bench for Lowry is an aggressive guard as well.

  8. Like enlightenment liked this post
  9. #347
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,268
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    So Jerryd Bayless and Nate Robinson are likely to be free agents this summer... add that to the potential back up pg board, if Raps land Ujiri he will look at the team and want to shape them into a fast breaking team and will want to make sure whoever who comes off the bench for Lowry is an aggressive guard as well.
    That is also just an assumption.

    PGs Ujiri had in Denver were all true PGs. Lawson, Felton, Andre Miller....these are guys who run a team's offense (even if Lawson also scores a lot for them). I don't know if Ujiri like scoring PGs. Admittedly 3 years is not a large sample size to be able to tell this, but it's just my gut. Not sure he'd want a "me-first" scorer like Bayless or Nate.

    *Or how patient he'd be if we see another "hero-Kyle" heavy season from Lowry
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu May 30th, 2013 at 10:01 AM.

  10. #348
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    4,008
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    That is also just an assumption.

    PGs Ujiri had in Denver were all true PGs. Lawson, Felton, Andre Miller....these are guys who run a team's offense (even if Lawson also scores a lot for them). I don't know if Ujiri like scoring PGs. Admittedly 3 years is not a large sample size to be able to tell this, but it's just my gut. Not sure he'd want a "me-first" scorer like Bayless or Nate.

    *Or how patient he'd be if we see another "hero-Kyle" heavy season from Lowry
    Lowry is more of pure point guard than Ty Lawson

  11. Like enlightenment liked this post
  12. #349
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Lowry is more of pure point guard than Ty Lawson
    and Felton who jacks up shot after shot when playing beside some pretty dam good players, hell Bayless is a better guard than Felton.

  13. #350
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,759
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Seeing Bayless silk off the floor and hollins grabbing his arm to get him back is enough of an indication that he still is not accepting his role in the nba. His opin

  14. #351
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,268
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Lowry is more of pure point guard than Ty Lawson
    No, he's not. Lawson runs a team where several people are highly involved in the offense without it taking away from his game at all. This is something Lowry is incapable of....For him it's either score for himself or get others involved. Lawson does both because he's a better PG.

    As for Felton....he's playing beside garbage players. New York has a shitty team. He is their 3rd option. He has to take shots if they're going to win. He also tries to get people involved, but it's hard when the team's system is "give the ball to Melo and stand at the 3pt line". Felton always adjusts his game for his teammates. He's just often been on teams where he sort of falls into being one of the top options (Charlotte and New York fit this, at least). It's like, he just takes the shots Jose was reluctant to, but that Jose should (Jose never shot the ball enough for a PG).

    Again, Lowry, to me, has not found any balance where he can be a playmaking PG and a scorer.

    And to clear this up...true point guard doesn't mean "pass-first", it means "run the team's offense". Tony Parker is a true PG...he's also a scoring PG and the top offensive option in San Antonio. His game is in no way selfish though, or takes away from his teammates. Billups was another great example of this type of true PG while being a scorer. Lowry does often take away from his teammates when he scores, and scoring is one of his major skills. If a PG can't maximize his own and his team's skills, he's not a true PG. This is also why I can't stand Westbrook.

    *Edit: By "New York has a shitty team", I mean that after Melo, Smith and Felton, everyone else is pretty much 100% useless with the ball.

    **double edit: I also don't think Felton is actually a better player than Lowry, but that he has showed on different occasions that he really knows how to run his team.

  15. #352
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Seeing Bayless silk off the floor and hollins grabbing his arm to get him back is enough of an indication that he still is not accepting his role in the nba. His opin
    Its true when I saw that in the Spurs series I was like lol Bayless is gone. He was however one of the only four Grizzlies playing with any passion.

  16. #353
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,759
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Nothing new here but a good article from Grange given the time of year.

    Incoming MLSE president and chief executive officer Tim Leiweke and general manager Masai Ujiri – scheduled to introduce themselves at a press conference in Toronto Tuesday — saw a team that may or may not have a shot at the playoffs, but one with a low ceiling.

    Leiweke calls it being a 7-11 team – good enough to make the playoffs but not advance; bad enough to miss the playoffs but not have the benefit of a top pick. It’s a recipe for mediocrity, and Leiweke sounds like he wants no part of it.

    Sounds good, but what to do? And what can be learned from the teams the Raptors will need to climb over at some point?
    The Pacers, meanwhile, became the first team since the 1983 San Antonio Spurs to make it to the NBA’s final four without the benefit of a player taken in the top eight in the draft of any year. Their two best players in the series, Paul George and Roy Hibbert, were taken 10th and 17th respectively. Their other starters, Lance Stephenson, George Hill and David West were taken 10th, 26th and 18th.
    If you’re from Toronto, and know what the city has to offer, it’s tough to accept being lumped in with the Milwaukee and Cleveland and Memphis and Indianapolis or Portland, Salt Lake City, Denver or Detroit.

    But as the Raptors look to reinvent themselves yet another time, having failed heading into their 18th season to settle on a vision and a philosophy that works, what Ujiri and perhaps more importantly Leiweke sees when they watch Game 7 Monday night is a burning issue for the short- and long-term visions of the franchise.

    Do they see Toronto as a glamour market waiting to be discovered?

    Or do they accept their fate as one of the NBA’s “other” markets which will have to go about the dodgy business of building a winning team the long way around?

    Or, more appropriately, will they recognize what they truly are: one of the NBA’s secondary markets, to be sure, but one with advantages that far outstrip niggly issues like higher taxes, cold weather or customs lineups?
    Even more encouraging would by the recognition that the Raptors have one advantage that a lot of so-called secondary markets don’t – and that’s the ability and apparent willingness, according to Leiweke, be a tax team.

    What that means is that should Ujiri be able to assemble a team that can find a way to compete it has a chance to be sustainable and won’t necessarily require being sold off for parts to avoid luxury tax penalties.
    That with the bones of a winning team in place money can be spent to keep players and attract new ones.

    It’s an option teams like Memphis or Indiana and other markets not among the league’s glamour set don’t necessarily have, but one that should be very real here. There is hope, in other words.
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...pick-his-path/
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #354
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Even more encouraging would by the recognition that the Raptors have one advantage that a lot of so-called secondary markets don’t – and that’s the ability and apparent willingness, according to Leiweke, be a tax team.

    What that means is that should Ujiri be able to assemble a team that can find a way to compete it has a chance to be sustainable and won’t necessarily require being sold off for parts to avoid luxury tax penalties.
    Does this mean we're going for CP3?
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  18. #355
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,759
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Does this mean we're going for CP3?
    I would say no, definitely not.

    But what it would mean, in my opinion, is that the next 2 years plays out like this:

    13-14: lose the deadweight, create flexibility while being competitive and adding supporting players to the 'vision'
    14-15: a second strong season would add to respectability and help capitalize on resources, flexibility, and foundation in place


    In 1-2 years time start looking at the CP3's (i.e. top available talent) of 2014 or 2015 via free agency or most likely trade.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #356
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    2,244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    and Felton who jacks up shot after shot when playing beside some pretty dam good players, hell Bayless is a better guard than Felton.
    Felton shot a better percentage than Lowry, getting nearly as many assists playing with the ball dominant Melo. Oh, and he contributed to a playoff team. Before the season started, I would have agreed with you, but Felton was pretty damn good for a guy having to play with a bunch of nutcases

  20. #357
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,234
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Does this mean we're going for CP3?
    I would say no as well at this point. But if we had something close to say a Denver team and while the Denver ownership I think would balk at splurging for a CP3 (go into luxury) the Raps would not. Also CP3 would want to go to a team which he would take over the top and the Raps are nowhere close.

  21. #358
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Jurassic Park
    Posts
    3,106
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Rebuild or Re-tool?

    If you're Ujiri what would you do? do a complete rebuild? keep only JV. Move everybody else and tank for Wiggins?

    Or re-tool? add some veteran players, hopefully find a PF, and take your chances in the playoffs?

    I think this current Raps team could sneak in in the 7th-8th spot in the East next season. If they add an all-star caliber PF like an Al Jefferson i think they could go deep a lot like the Pacers this year.

    If they do a complete rebuild, and finish with the worst or 2nd worst record in the league. There's no guarantee that they're going to get Wiggins or Parker. So doing that i think is a huge risk.

    What would you do?

    Btw, still shaking my head that the Raps could have had Lillard or Barnes or Beal in last year's draft but instead got Ross. Last year was the year where they should've tanked. All of them knew that 11-12 season was a lottery season. But thanks to Dwane Casey and his 'culture change' they missed out on all those great players in the draft.

    This is another reason why i hate Casey. Not a very smart coach. Not thinking long term.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  22. #359
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,234
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Dont just blame Casey, BC was also quite ok with it. Actually seeing the finish line to get a decent pick and then putting your "A" team out there against the "C" team of your opponents during the last couple of weeks was beyond idiocy. We all know the how meaningful the stats are that time of season for the dreg teams.

    Re the current team I am leaning towards a preference of a rebuild with a emphasis on getting a high pick in 2014 and collecting other picks which will be difficult (since everyone would want to hold on to their picks). Use the next season to instill the new style and possibly coach if Casey is not compatible. I believe this would be less risky than the retool unless Masai is able to swing a Melo like trade.....and this is unlikely.

  23. #360
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,057
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    If you're Ujiri what would you do? do a complete rebuild? keep only JV. Move everybody else and tank for Wiggins?

    Or re-tool? add some veteran players, hopefully find a PF, and take your chances in the playoffs?

    I think this current Raps team could sneak in in the 7th-8th spot in the East next season. If they add an all-star caliber PF like an Al Jefferson i think they could go deep a lot like the Pacers this year.

    If they do a complete rebuild, and finish with the worst or 2nd worst record in the league. There's no guarantee that they're going to get Wiggins or Parker. So doing that i think is a huge risk.

    What would you do?

    Btw, still shaking my head that the Raps could have had Lillard or Barnes or Beal in last year's draft but instead got Ross. Last year was the year where they should've tanked. All of them knew that 11-12 season was a lottery season. But thanks to Dwane Casey and his 'culture change' they missed out on all those great players in the draft.

    This is another reason why i hate Casey. Not a very smart coach. Not thinking long term.
    First Bold: Al Jefferson is FAR from all-star calibre. He's a very good big man, but like Rudy, not all-star calibre, yet. Second part of that, I could never see the team making an Eastern Conference Finals run mainly with Lowry/DeRozan/Gay/Jefferson/Valanciunas. Second round more likely (still quite unlikely), but Eastern Conference is a stretch considering Indiana, Miami, and Bulls with Rose are better teams, talent and system wise.

    Second Bold: Tanking is stupid in my honest opinion. Bad players and veterans with expiring contracts to tank for 25% for the #1 pick is not the best for the future, especially because it's only 1/4 of a chance, not great odds. But trying to win games in an obvious lottery year is stupid too. That's why you keep the young players, and call it a development. Like what OKC did (although got very lucky), Golden State, & Cleveland. They all got great picks because of losing games due to lack of experience, and lack of developed NBA talent. Years allowed them to gain chemistry, develop themselves to be proven or established NBA players, and gain experience.

    What would I do? Re-tool, because there are some solid pieces to move, such as DeRozan/Ross/Fields (log jam of wings - prospects/young players), Kyle Lowry (good solid point guard, expiring deal, possible cornerstone for a franchise at the position), Bargnani. If this team can get some expiring deals but also useful players, draft picks and or prospects, this team will have the ability to stay competitive, and have the future in mind as well, which is similar to how Denver built since Ujiri arrived there. Ujiri obviously doesn't have near the equal talent to EDIT* CARMELO, but some solid pieces to use in terms of "sweetening" a deal.
    Last edited by ReubenJRD; Sun Jun 9th, 2013 at 02:11 AM.

  24. Like Mapko liked this post
Page 18 of 47 FirstFirst ... 8 16 17 18 19 20 28 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •