View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #361
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    It really depends on what the goal is. Do you want to win a championship or just be a team that makes the playoffs.

    If making the playoffs is the end game, then tanking is not necessary, we can re-tool the roster make some key trades or free-agent signings and get that 4th- 8th seed in the East.

    However, if the goal is to win a championship, I believe it is absolutely necessary to tank. Here is why. Tanking ensures a greater chance at drafting future super-stars (granted it is just a "chance") and at the end of the day you need super-stars to win or rather, MVPs. Going back to the last 30 years, only 3 teams (Detroit 89,90, 2003) have won without a soon to be MVP, current, or past MVP. At the end of the day, history has shown that you need extraordinary players to win an NBA championship. Now there have been some teams that have been able to sign MVPs via free agency or through trades (Sixers- Moses Malone, Lakers-Kareem Shaq, Miami- Shaq Lebron), however, right now I don't believe Toronto has developed the sort of reputation to acquire MVP type talent. This is why I believe if the goal is to win a championship, we have to tank and hope to draft that future MVP.

  2. #362
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Can't they do both?

    Is it possible for Toronto to take other team's shit for picks? I mean the real shit of the shit. I mean like Tyrus Thomas shit or Drew Gooden shit or Michael Beasley shit.

    How much dead cap space is Toronto willing to take on? In other words, is Bell/Rogers really committed to spending/wasting money to win longer term?

    If teams are not willing to trade their picks outright (which is highly possible given hype for 2014 draft) well why not play the "league doormat" card and give Toronto the right to swap picks (Sacramento/Charlotte/Phoenix)?

    Is Ujiri able to look around the league at next year rosters and see which team is thinking they will be better than they truly are? I can't help but think about Milwaukee - swap or obtain their pick.

    Is there a team looking to unload a contract(s) now or this summer to make a move in this year's free agency and would be willing to sacrifice a 2014 pick to do it?

    Any of these players they obtain don't actually have to play. I mean if you think about it, the Raptors had $15M in deadweight last year in Kleiza and Bargnani. This upcoming season they are going to have nearly $14M in expiring contracts (Gray, Lowry, Kleiza). Then you have a $9.5M piece like DeRozan that an argument can be made is still young and with upside.



    I think the Raptors have the makings for a competitive team next season (competitive does not guarantee playoffs, I mean they might actually play meaningful games in late March/April). They have solid PG-SF-C scoring (Lowry-Gay-JV). They have 2 solid glue guys off the bench or who could start, one big/one wing (Amir/Fields). They have a possible 3 and D prospect in Ross. They have a garbage, hustler in Acy. They have a huge stiff in Gray. If they can get some value signings via the MLE (remember MLE can be broken down, doesn't have to be used on one player) or minimum contract things might be pretty competitive. The key for Toronto is to get some value contracts. Has Colangelo ever signed a value contract since Parker and Garbo?


    I think if the Raptors/Bell/Rogers are willing to take shell out millions on dead weight, they can get the best of both the tanking and competing worlds.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #363
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    Is there no option for organic growth?

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  5. #364
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Is there no option for organic growth?
    Organic growth is an option with JV on our team... but with this lineup of players the ceiling is very visible. A championship is not in sight.

  6. #365
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Al Jefferson is an all-star calibre player in this league. I think he's a better player than Chris Bosh actually. Jefferson's not getting a lot of recognition that he deserves because he's played on bad teams.

    Jefferson's numbers the last 7 years:

    06/07 season 16ppg 11rpg
    07/08 season 21ppg 11rpg
    08/09 season 23ppg 11rpg
    09/10 seson 17ppg 9rpg
    10/11 season 18ppg 9rpg
    11/12 season 19ppg 9rpg
    12/13 season 17ppg 9rpg

    Anyway, i'm starting to warm up in the idea of 'tanking'. Keep only JV and Ross. Very risky i know but the 2014 draft is so deep that even if you miss out on Wiggins, there's still Parker, Randle, Vonleh etc.

    Like seiz here said, if the goal is to win a championship and sustain long term success i think you have to tank specially when you look at the players that will be available in the 2014 draft. UNLESS you can trade for or sign an all-star caliber player now like an Al Jefferson.
    Last edited by TRex; Tue Jun 4th, 2013 at 08:18 PM.
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  7. #366
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Can't they do both?

    Is it possible for Toronto to take other team's shit for picks? I mean the real shit of the shit. I mean like Tyrus Thomas shit or Drew Gooden shit or Michael Beasley shit.

    How much dead cap space is Toronto willing to take on? In other words, is Bell/Rogers really committed to spending/wasting money to win longer term?

    If teams are not willing to trade their picks outright (which is highly possible given hype for 2014 draft) well why not play the "league doormat" card and give Toronto the right to swap picks (Sacramento/Charlotte/Phoenix)?

    Is Ujiri able to look around the league at next year rosters and see which team is thinking they will be better than they truly are? I can't help but think about Milwaukee - swap or obtain their pick.

    Is there a team looking to unload a contract(s) now or this summer to make a move in this year's free agency and would be willing to sacrifice a 2014 pick to do it?

    Any of these players they obtain don't actually have to play. I mean if you think about it, the Raptors had $15M in deadweight last year in Kleiza and Bargnani. This upcoming season they are going to have nearly $14M in expiring contracts (Gray, Lowry, Kleiza). Then you have a $9.5M piece like DeRozan that an argument can be made is still young and with upside.



    I think the Raptors have the makings for a competitive team next season (competitive does not guarantee playoffs, I mean they might actually play meaningful games in late March/April). They have solid PG-SF-C scoring (Lowry-Gay-JV). They have 2 solid glue guys off the bench or who could start, one big/one wing (Amir/Fields). They have a possible 3 and D prospect in Ross. They have a garbage, hustler in Acy. They have a huge stiff in Gray. If they can get some value signings via the MLE (remember MLE can be broken down, doesn't have to be used on one player) or minimum contract things might be pretty competitive. The key for Toronto is to get some value contracts. Has Colangelo ever signed a value contract since Parker and Garbo?


    I think if the Raptors/Bell/Rogers are willing to take shell out millions on dead weight, they can get the best of both the tanking and competing worlds.
    So continuing with this idea....

    I know this is not a real popular idea with some people, but sometimes you need to make sacrifices to get to where you want to go.

    Trade 1:
    DeRozan to Utah for #14 and a TPE.

    Trade 2:
    Three team deal with Golden State and Dallas.

    Marion and bargnani to GSW.
    #13, 2014 GSW 1st pick, biedrins, jefferson to Toronto

    Raps use TPE to take BIedrins. Where did TPE come from? DeRozan.

    Trade 3:
    Jefferson to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas, Ramon Sessions, 2014 Detroit protected pick (1-8)

    Trade 4:
    Biedrins to Milwaukee for Gooden, Mbah a Moute, 2014 pick


    So in being competitive, Raptors have this lineup and still the MLE to get more shooters at SG and SF (:

    PG: Lowry, Sessions
    SG: Fields, Ross
    SF: Gay, Mbah a Moute, Kleiza
    PF: Amir, Gooden, Acy, Thomas
    C: JV, Gray


    .... and in rebuilding:

    Expiring contracts in 2014: Lowry, Sessions, Kleiza, Gray (~$17M)
    Expiring contracts in 2015: Fields, Gay, Mbah a Moute, Amir, Gooden, Thomas (~$50M)

    2013 draft picks: #13, #14
    2014: own, Detroit (1-8 protected), Milwaukee




    Probably, no, definitely unlikely, but just trying to give an indication of what I meant about having both worlds happening simultaneously.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #367
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So continuing with this idea....

    I know this is not a real popular idea with some people, but sometimes you need to make sacrifices to get to where you want to go.

    Trade 1:
    DeRozan to Utah for #14 and a TPE.

    Trade 2:
    Three team deal with Golden State and Dallas.

    Marion and bargnani to GSW.
    #13, 2014 GSW 1st pick, biedrins, jefferson to Toronto

    Raps use TPE to take BIedrins. Where did TPE come from? DeRozan.

    Trade 3:
    Jefferson to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas, Ramon Sessions, 2014 Detroit protected pick (1-8)

    Trade 4:
    Biedrins to Milwaukee for Gooden, Mbah a Moute, 2014 pick


    So in being competitive, Raptors have this lineup and still the MLE to get more shooters at SG and SF (:

    PG: Lowry, Sessions
    SG: Fields, Ross
    SF: Gay, Mbah a Moute, Kleiza
    PF: Amir, Gooden, Acy, Thomas
    C: JV, Gray


    .... and in rebuilding:

    Expiring contracts in 2014: Lowry, Sessions, Kleiza, Gray (~$17M)
    Expiring contracts in 2015: Fields, Gay, Mbah a Moute, Amir, Gooden, Thomas (~$50M)

    2013 draft picks: #13, #14
    2014: own, Detroit (1-8 protected), Milwaukee




    Probably, no, definitely unlikely, but just trying to give an indication of what I meant about having both worlds happening simultaneously.
    Ok, first off, I really hate this kind of idea in general. Beyond that, I don't have a problem, in theory, with this approach for Toronto. So keeping in line with the idea, here are my issues...

    -Your second trade really confuses me.....so I'm laying it out again....
    GSW gets: Marion and Bargnani
    Toronto gets: picks, Jefferson and Biedrins
    Dallas gets: ??? what exactly? Are they just getting the DeMar TPE flipped to them?

    -In both your third and fourth trades, I'm not sure you get that haul from either team. Charlotte...mmmaybe. No indication they're being run any better. So maybe you could get Sessions and a pick if you give them relief and take back Thomas' awful deal. Milwaukee? I don't buy it. They won't give up Mbah a Moute and a first round pick just to shed Gooden.

  9. #368
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So in being competitive, Raptors have this lineup and still the MLE to get more shooters at SG and SF (:

    PG: Lowry, Sessions
    SG: Fields, Ross
    SF: Gay, Mbah a Moute, Kleiza
    PF: Amir, Gooden, Acy, Thomas
    C: JV, Gray
    Sorry Matt but I'm not feeling it. I think they can do better than that for DeRozan.

    The two teen picks could be used to leverage their way up to take their guy if need be though.

  10. #369
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    Among the 3 options Tim Leiweke discussed, I would like to see the Raptors venture into the 3rd option, which is essentially a combination of both -- attempt to be competitive now while at the same time develop end of the bench talent slowly. I'm pleased that Ujiri, being a former scout, sees the value in having a great scouting system, an excellent development program & a shared vision between the coaches and management.

    What I like the most from Ujiri is his philosophy of "we can grow our players here" -- which is exactly what you need to do as a franchise. For example, Oklahoma City has Reggie Jackson, Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones, etc. that they are grooming slowly via the D-League or behind their stars. These types of assets always hold value in the open market. San Antonio has the same approach. They are patient in terms of developing their bench guys in hopes to have them ready for the big league OR trade them for other assets.

    In 3 years with the Nuggets, Ujiri managed to re-tool on the go, have his team competing in the playoffs & have a ton of young assets to groom. I don't see why he can't do the same here in Toronto where we have good pieces (as much as we like to downplay our roster).

    Imagine, instead of giving away a 2nd rounder to Phoenix for Bassy, we plugged in a young point guard as our third stringer -- who has been under a rigorous development program. These are the scenarios I expect from the Raptors with Ujiri spear-heading the charge.
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  11. #370
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    I'm not sure Matt was advocating these specific trades as much as he was trying to illustrate how you could both rebuild and be competitive, I don't think the specific trades matter so much as people understand the concept
    Last edited by thead; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 12:49 PM.

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  13. #371
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So continuing with this idea....

    I know this is not a real popular idea with some people, but sometimes you need to make sacrifices to get to where you want to go.

    Trade 1:
    DeRozan to Utah for #14 and a TPE.

    Trade 2:
    Three team deal with Golden State and Dallas.

    Marion and bargnani to GSW.
    #13, 2014 GSW 1st pick, biedrins, jefferson to Toronto

    Raps use TPE to take BIedrins. Where did TPE come from? DeRozan.

    Trade 3:
    Jefferson to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas, Ramon Sessions, 2014 Detroit protected pick (1-8)

    Trade 4:
    Biedrins to Milwaukee for Gooden, Mbah a Moute, 2014 pick


    So in being competitive, Raptors have this lineup and still the MLE to get more shooters at SG and SF (:

    PG: Lowry, Sessions
    SG: Fields, Ross
    SF: Gay, Mbah a Moute, Kleiza
    PF: Amir, Gooden, Acy, Thomas
    C: JV, Gray


    .... and in rebuilding:

    Expiring contracts in 2014: Lowry, Sessions, Kleiza, Gray (~$17M)
    Expiring contracts in 2015: Fields, Gay, Mbah a Moute, Amir, Gooden, Thomas (~$50M)

    2013 draft picks: #13, #14
    2014: own, Detroit (1-8 protected), Milwaukee




    Probably, no, definitely unlikely, but just trying to give an indication of what I meant about having both worlds happening simultaneously.
    I have almost the same line-up in 2K13
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  14. #372
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure Matt was advocating this specific trades as much as he was trying to illustrate how you could both rebuild and be competitive, I don't think the specific trades matter so much as people understand the concept
    You are a scholar and a gentleman, sir.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #373
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Ok, first off, I really hate this kind of idea in general. Beyond that, I don't have a problem, in theory, with this approach for Toronto. So keeping in line with the idea, here are my issues...

    -Your second trade really confuses me.....so I'm laying it out again....
    GSW gets: Marion and Bargnani
    Toronto gets: picks, Jefferson and Biedrins
    Dallas gets: ??? what exactly? Are they just getting the DeMar TPE flipped to them?

    -In both your third and fourth trades, I'm not sure you get that haul from either team. Charlotte...mmmaybe. No indication they're being run any better. So maybe you could get Sessions and a pick if you give them relief and take back Thomas' awful deal. Milwaukee? I don't buy it. They won't give up Mbah a Moute and a first round pick just to shed Gooden.
    Dallas shed Marion for free agency this summer. It has been rumoured for weeks.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #374
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Sorry Matt but I'm not feeling it. I think they can do better than that for DeRozan.

    The two teen picks could be used to leverage their way up to take their guy if need be though.
    Forget the details and focus on the concept.

    Regarding DD, yes, they can if they are willing to take back salary. For the sake of the concept I laid out, the goal was to shed salary/gain TPE to get more picks.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #375
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So continuing with this idea....

    I know this is not a real popular idea with some people, but sometimes you need to make sacrifices to get to where you want to go.

    Trade 1:
    DeRozan to Utah for #14 and a TPE.

    Trade 2:
    Three team deal with Golden State and Dallas.

    Marion and bargnani to GSW.
    #13, 2014 GSW 1st pick, biedrins, jefferson to Toronto

    Raps use TPE to take BIedrins. Where did TPE come from? DeRozan.

    Trade 3:
    Jefferson to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas, Ramon Sessions, 2014 Detroit protected pick (1-8)

    Trade 4:
    Biedrins to Milwaukee for Gooden, Mbah a Moute, 2014 pick


    So in being competitive, Raptors have this lineup and still the MLE to get more shooters at SG and SF (:

    PG: Lowry, Sessions
    SG: Fields, Ross
    SF: Gay, Mbah a Moute, Kleiza
    PF: Amir, Gooden, Acy, Thomas
    C: JV, Gray


    .... and in rebuilding:

    Expiring contracts in 2014: Lowry, Sessions, Kleiza, Gray (~$17M)
    Expiring contracts in 2015: Fields, Gay, Mbah a Moute, Amir, Gooden, Thomas (~$50M)

    2013 draft picks: #13, #14
    2014: own, Detroit (1-8 protected), Milwaukee




    Probably, no, definitely unlikely, but just trying to give an indication of what I meant about having both worlds happening simultaneously.
    I know you said not to get caught up in the details but there's no way Golden State is giving up their two big expiring contracts (Biedrins & RJ) AND a first rounder just to take Bargnani's corpse off of the Raptors hands. Marion would be a decent tool for them but I don't think they're giving up their financial freedom next summer just to land him. With Bogut/Biedrins/Jefferson expiring in 2014 they will be in a position to sign a max level player outright to add to the Curry/Thompson/Barnes/Lee core.

    As far as the concept in general, I don't like the idea of hedging between rebuilding and winning now. That's a recipe for a treadmill team. I think you are underestimating what the Raptors would have to give up to walk away with 4 first rounders (including 3 potential lottery picks) over the next two drafts, and a ton of cap space too. It would definitely cost more than just DeRozan and Bargnani, which would weaken the potential to compete now, which would put us back in that no man's land where we're not drafting in the top 5 but not really a playoff contender either. Sounds like a BC plan.

    I'm also unclear about you listing guys like Lowry, Gay and Amir as expiring contracts that will give the team cap space over the next two years. If you plan on using the cap space rather than re-signing them then a) that's a huge glut of talent leaving the roster all at once = rebuild time and b) I don't know why you wouldn't just trade them now, get even more picks/prospects back and start a true rebuild process now and in a proper fashion. And if you do plan on re-signing them, then they really do not represent cap space at all. In fact, a couple of those players will likely be due for raises.

    I've said it before and I will say it again: if we "stay the course" with the current core, we are staring down a rebuild in two years time anyway. Do it properly now and you don't waste two years of a cheap JV entering his prime, plus you get to take advantage of an awesome draft in 2014.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 10:44 AM.

  18. #376
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I know you said not to get caught up in the details but there's no way Golden State is giving up their two big expiring contracts (Biedrins & RJ) AND a first rounder just to take Bargnani's corpse off of the Raptors hands. Marion would be a decent tool for them but I don't think they're giving up their financial freedom next summer just to land him. With Bogut/Biedrins/Jefferson expiring in 2014 they will be in a position to sign a max level player outright to add to the Curry/Thompson/Barnes/Lee core.

    As far as the concept in general, I don't like the idea of hedging between rebuilding and winning now. That's a recipe for a treadmill team. I think you are underestimating what the Raptors would have to give up to walk away with 4 first rounders (including 3 potential lottery picks) over the next two drafts, and a ton of cap space too. It would definitely cost more than just DeRozan and Bargnani, which would weaken the potential to compete now, which would put us back in that no man's land where we're not drafting in the top 5 but not really a playoff contender either. Sounds like a BC plan.

    I'm also unclear about you listing guys like Lowry, Gay and Amir as expiring contracts that will give the team cap space over the next two years. If you plan on using the cap space rather than re-signing them then a) that's a huge glut of talent leaving the roster all at once = rebuild time and b) I don't know why you wouldn't just trade them now, get even more picks/prospects back and start a true rebuild process now and in a proper fashion. And if you do plan on re-signing them, then they really do not represent cap space at all. In fact, a couple of those players will likely be due for raises.

    I've said it before and I will say it again: if we "stay the course" with the current core, we are staring down a rebuild in two years time anyway. Do it properly now and you don't waste two years of a cheap JV entering his prime, plus you get to take advantage of an awesome draft in 2014.
    GSW won't be able to sign a max free agent next year with Bogut's cap hold... unless they renounce him. Bogut was the big reason for their turnaround.

    As for the hedging, if you have other 1st round picks I'm not seeing the problem. The Raps have the makings for a playoff team (Lowry, Gay, JV, Amir, Fields, Ross) assuming some of the players grow and return to previous form (big assumptions) and they add a couple of value pieces with MLE or mininum contracts. You very well could be right on what DD and Bargnani return but don't forget there are some pretty bad contracts coming back to Toronto in exchange for those assets.

    If you exclude Lowry, Gay, and Amir, you are still looking at $11M next season and $23M the following season in expiring contracts. The point is flexibility and, when talking about Lowry and Amir, players who are actually worth their contracts. As for huge glut of talent leaving, who is to say they have not been replaced? What happens if Schroeder is as good as advertised or any other draft pick (assumption Raptors draft him)? You've got a starter on a cheap rookie deal freeing up cap space elsewhere.

    Your last paragraph is looking at things from black and white. I'm fine with going a total rebuild (as a Rap fan when the Raptors suck I also have the NCAA to keep me occupied) or tinkering with what is here. But if rebuild is done it would really suck to end up with an Oden-like player (injuries), Williams-like player (over valued), or Morrison (bust). Also if you can find a team that thinks they are better than they are going to be or is tired of adding youth in the draft getting nowhere, you just might get their picks. It is a big if but isn't everything?

    The Raps have enough guys under contract who can contribute that they could hypothetically use 4-5 roster spots to take on crap in exchange for an asset while still competing - because the crap (like Bargnani or Kleiza) is never going to see the floor anyways.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #377
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Forget the details and focus on the concept.

    Regarding DD, yes, they can if they are willing to take back salary. For the sake of the concept I laid out, the goal was to shed salary/gain TPE to get more picks.
    Maybe my idea of payroll is novel but I see nothing wrong with them spending to luxury tax, in fact I look at it as a benefit because they have use of funds other teams cannot under the CBA. I think with a cap number close to tax they can be "buyers" of teams looking to shed cap by trading off their expiring contracts. Not all cap dumps are for players of little value and on top of this sometimes teams toss in incentives, like picks, to get people to take their cap "burdens" so that they can pursue the D12's and CP3's of the league in FA.

    I think clearing cap space is overrated. This is what I'm getting at. It's overrated because no one is going to come to Toronto unless Toronto is the highest bidder and so you're getting to a scenario of dumping cap to then turn around and overpay other players to come here who then you will soon be talking about in cap dumping scenarios.

  20. #378
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Maybe my idea of payroll is novel but I see nothing wrong with them spending to luxury tax, in fact I look at it as a benefit because they have use of funds other teams cannot under the CBA. I think with a cap number close to tax they can be "buyers" of teams looking to shed cap by trading off their expiring contracts. Not all cap dumps are for players of little value and on top of this sometimes teams toss in incentives, like picks, to get people to take their cap "burdens" so that they can pursue the D12's and CP3's of the league in FA.

    I think clearing cap space is overrated. This is what I'm getting at. It's overrated because no one is going to come to Toronto unless Toronto is the highest bidder and so you're getting to a scenario of dumping cap to then turn around and overpay other players to come here who then you will soon be talking about in cap dumping scenarios.
    I agree with this.

    But in this particular DeRozan scenario I laid out a situation to get a TPE to take on other bad salaries to get more picks. The move is not to free cap space to go in to free agency but to create a mechanism to take back salary when the Raptors are already over the cap.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #379
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I guess my stumbling point is trading DeMar for essentially the #14(a wildcard) and the right to spend hole in the payroll left by clearing DeMar off the books. I think we differ in opinions on what he's worth or what we're happy with receiving for him or both.

  22. #380
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    GSW won't be able to sign a max free agent next year with Bogut's cap hold... unless they renounce him. Bogut was the big reason for their turnaround.

    As for the hedging, if you have other 1st round picks I'm not seeing the problem. The Raps have the makings for a playoff team (Lowry, Gay, JV, Amir, Fields, Ross) assuming some of the players grow and return to previous form (big assumptions) and they add a couple of value pieces with MLE or mininum contracts. You very well could be right on what DD and Bargnani return but don't forget there are some pretty bad contracts coming back to Toronto in exchange for those assets.
    Well of course you can have the best of both worlds if you're just coming up with completely unrealistic trade scenarios involving the Raptors - ones where the team gets to keep virtually all of their good players and yet still end up with 5 first rounders over the next two seasons and a ton of cap space next summer.

    That Golden State trade is insane. The Raptors give up Bargnani and get... Two first rounders (1 lottery) and two big contracts that expire before Bargnani's does? I seriously doubt the Warriors would give up Biedrins or Jefferson alone for AB.

    And as an aside, no the Warriors may not completely get rid of Bogut next summer but they won't be paying him $15 million dollars a season either. I wouldn't call him the reason for their turnaround considering he's played 44 games combined over the last two years. Even if Bogut's salary gets cut in half, that's over $20 million in expiring money between Biedrins, Jefferson and Bogut's pay slash.

    If you exclude Lowry, Gay, and Amir, you are still looking at $11M next season and $23M the following season in expiring contracts. The point is flexibility and, when talking about Lowry and Amir, players who are actually worth their contracts. As for huge glut of talent leaving, who is to say they have not been replaced? What happens if Schroeder is as good as advertised or any other draft pick (assumption Raptors draft him)? You've got a starter on a cheap rookie deal freeing up cap space elsewhere.
    Well your cap relief numbers are largely based on those same ridiculous trades. So no, it's flatly not that simple.

    Furthermore, if your plan is to draft players to make Gay, Lowry, Amir expendable in free agency then why wouldn't you just trade them now and get even more prospects and picks back? Why shoot for the 7th or 8th seed over the next two years with a core that you don't plan on sticking with? You want to turn it over to the kids in two years time anyway so why not turn it over now and give yourself a chance to get one of the real difference makers at the top of the 2014 draft?

    Your last paragraph is looking at things from black and white. I'm fine with going a total rebuild (as a Rap fan when the Raptors suck I also have the NCAA to keep me occupied) or tinkering with what is here. But if rebuild is done it would really suck to end up with an Oden-like player (injuries), Williams-like player (over valued), or Morrison (bust). Also if you can find a team that thinks they are better than they are going to be or is tired of adding youth in the draft getting nowhere, you just might get their picks. It is a big if but isn't everything?

    The Raps have enough guys under contract who can contribute that they could hypothetically use 4-5 roster spots to take on crap in exchange for an asset while still competing - because the crap (like Bargnani or Kleiza) is never going to see the floor anyways.
    Well of course it would suck if we bottomed out for a couple years and ended up with duds. It would also suck if we did your plan and the guys we picked in the teens never panned out, forcing us to re-up with the Lowry/Gay core and ride out another few years of mediocrity. It would also suck if we lose Gay/Amir/Lowry to free agency and can't find adequate replacements. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA! I'm tired of the anti-tank crowd acting like the top end of the lottery is the only thing in the league that requires good fortune.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 12:46 PM.

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