View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 32.43%
  • Tweaker

    25 67.57%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #381
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    I was totally in favour of BC finishing the re-building job that he started. It didn't make sense to me (still doesn't) to abruptly disturb it and go in a different direction (not that I don't like Ujiri). In other words I was in favour of competing and making the play offs next year.

    Now that the leadership direction has changed, I'd like to see them tank. We've got some assets that, other than help create flexibility, can also help accumulate some draft picks. Deep Talent filled drafts like the 2014 one don't come often. Let's take advantage of it and tank. I don't see it taking more than one year if the plan simply is "outright tanking".
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  2. #382
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    There was a structure change above Colangelo. Views/philosophies changed. That probably played a factor. His lack of performance also must have played a huge factor. I'm glad he's out. He had ample opportunity. It's not like they didn't give him a chance. It's not like they didn't give him complete control.

  3. #383
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    There was a structure change above Colangelo. Views/philosophies changed. That probably played a factor. His lack of performance also must have played a huge factor. I'm glad he's out. He had ample opportunity. It's not like they didn't give him a chance. It's not like they didn't give him complete control.
    Now that it's done, good time to tank. Let Ujiri build HIS team from scratch.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  4. #384
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I guess my stumbling point is trading DeMar for essentially the #14(a wildcard) and the right to spend hole in the payroll left by clearing DeMar off the books. I think we differ in opinions on what he's worth or what we're happy with receiving for him or both.
    I think DD is worth more than #14 and a TPE as well.

    However, if you are able to flip the TPE as I've been advocating, then you just turned DD in to two picks and an expiring contract. You don't do #14 and TPE without knowing you can do the next trade.

    So I think we are both in agreement that #14 and a TPE is not enough for him. There has to be another move waiting in the wings.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #385
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Now that it's done, good time to tank. Let Ujiri build HIS team from scratch.
    Why build from scratch? Sounds like a couple wasted years of dismantling to me.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think DD is worth more than #14 and a TPE as well.

    However, if you are able to flip the TPE as I've been advocating, then you just turned DD in to two picks and an expiring contract. You don't do #14 and TPE without knowing you can do the next trade.

    So I think we are both in agreement that #14 and a TPE is not enough for him. There has to be another move waiting in the wings.
    Based on what we saw out of Colangelo, a guy known for wheeling and dealing, those TPE usually serve as nothing more than a way out for ownership while selling it as a trade asset to the fans--- until it expires. When it expires it's not talked about because there is no value in that to the fans.

    Doing what you're saying is risky. You saying trade him for less in the hopes that the second domino is of great value. There are too many ifs, ands and buts for my liking personally but that's just me...

  6. #386
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    @Fully you are getting caught up in details. TL mentioned "3 roads". I think people were curious what the middle road would look like. All details aside...I guess you could even go the player A, player B route if you like. We send out a good player

    In this example Player A, Henceforth known as Pasta McCalfsore makes roughly 12 million dollars, Player B, aka Kenneth Von Staredown is an expiring 4 million dollar injury case. Golden State has 20 million dollars in expiring contracts and picks, in order to get them we are forced to give up Player C aka Amir Johnson.

    We win because we shed not one but two useless players. GSW wins because two of the three players they pick up can contribute where the two expiring deals they had before do not. We win again because more than likely by the trade deadline, as happens every year, some team goes...ah fuck we built this wrong time to blow it up. (which ironically enough might be us this year)

  7. #387
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    If anyone has a way to build a championship team that doesn't involve some risk or luck...please say so now, so that 30 GMs can pay you for your wisdom

  8. #388
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Well of course you can have the best of both worlds if you're just coming up with completely unrealistic trade scenarios involving the Raptors - ones where the team gets to keep virtually all of their good players and yet still end up with 5 first rounders over the next two seasons and a ton of cap space next summer.

    That Golden State trade is insane. The Raptors give up Bargnani and get... Two first rounders (1 lottery) and two big contracts that expire before Bargnani's does? I seriously doubt the Warriors would give up Biedrins or Jefferson alone for AB.

    And as an aside, no the Warriors may not completely get rid of Bogut next summer but they won't be paying him $15 million dollars a season either. I wouldn't call him the reason for their turnaround considering he's played 44 games combined over the last two years. Even if Bogut's salary gets cut in half, that's over $20 million in expiring money between Biedrins, Jefferson and Bogut's pay slash.
    The trade scenarios were not the important part. At least I know super moderator thead got the message.

    Yes, when you state the trade as you have then it is insane. But the Raptors gave up DeRozan to get the opportunity to take on Biedrins and another pick. The Warriors also received Marion. Who would you rather give $20M to: Jefferson/Biedrins or Bargnani/Marion - especially when you have Carl Landry opting out and Jarrett Jack to resign?

    Bogut will be a highly productive 29 year old C next summer looking for one final pay day. When you see the contracts McGee and Jordan got, he is going to be making closer to $15 than $9M - there goes that max salary you were talking about.



    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Well your cap relief numbers are largely based on those same ridiculous trades. So no, it's flatly not that simple.

    Furthermore, if your plan is to draft players to make Gay, Lowry, Amir expendable in free agency then why wouldn't you just trade them now and get even more prospects and picks back? Why shoot for the 7th or 8th seed over the next two years with a core that you don't plan on sticking with? You want to turn it over to the kids in two years time anyway so why not turn it over now and give yourself a chance to get one of the real difference makers at the top of the 2014 draft?



    Well of course it would suck if we bottomed out for a couple years and ended up with duds. It would also suck if we did your plan and the guys we picked in the teens never panned out, forcing us to re-up with the Lowry/Gay core and ride out another few years of mediocrity. It would also suck if we lose Gay/Amir/Lowry to free agency and can't find adequate replacements. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA! I'm tired of the anti-tank crowd acting like the top end of the lottery is the only thing in the league that requires good fortune.
    Again, the ridiculous trades were not the important. If you don't think something with the same or similar end results cannot be done, then that is fine. I personally think it can be done if you find one of those 7/11 teams who think they are better than they actually are or going to be OR if you find a team looking to unload bad contracts and are already extremely young.

    Players might become expendable, they might not. They might become sign and trade possibilities, or they might not. They might draft players that make them expendable, they might not. My whole point is flexibility and keeping options open while maximizing return on assets. The Raptors are not near a contending team and there is a strong possibility they might not even be a playoff team.

    Why shoot for the 7th/8th seed over the next 2 years with a core you don't plan on sticking with? Because situations don't exist in a vacuum. It is becoming cliche to go back to Indiana, but lets do it anyways. Where were they 3 years ago? 32 wins in the draft where they took George at #10. Where were they 2 years ago? 37 wins in the playoffs at the 8th seed losing 4-1 to Chicago with a starting lineup of Collison, Rush/Dunleavy/George, Grangers, McRoberts/Hansbrough, Hibbert. Where were they 1 year ago? 42 wins in the playoffs where they lost in the 2nd round to Orlando 4-1 with a starting lineup of Collison, George, Granger, West, Hibbert. Where were they this year? 49 wins and in the playoffs where they lost in the 3rd round/Conference Finals in game 7 with a starting lineup of Hill, Stephenson, George, West, Hibbert. If you have a plan and continue to bring in pieces that fit that plan (i.e. you continue to evolve and grow) you can still compete while building a contender.

    Do you know what I'm tired of? The inability to think abstractly. Everything is not black and white. And I'm not sure if you label me as the anti-tank crowd or not but I'm happy to blow it up but in blowing it up, is Lowry, Gay, Amir, DeRozan going to return you nearly guaranteed lottery draft picks? And if they don't are you willing to accept pennies on the dollar to ensure your own draft pick might turn in to a winner?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #389
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why build from scratch? Sounds like a couple wasted years of dismantling to me.



    Based on what we saw out of Colangelo, a guy known for wheeling and dealing, those TPE usually serve as nothing more than a way out for ownership while selling it as a trade asset to the fans--- until it expires. When it expires it's not talked about because there is no value in that to the fans.

    Doing what you're saying is risky. You saying trade him for less in the hopes that the second domino is of great value. There are too many ifs, ands and buts for my liking personally but that's just me...
    That is understandable.

    Like I said, it is already lined up or you bring another team in to make it a 3 or 4 team deal.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #390
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    it is already lined up or you bring another team in to make it a 3 or 4 team deal.
    Oh, I must of missed that part when I was browsing the thread. My mistake.

  11. #391
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why build from scratch?
    Because of philosophical difference between Ujiri and BC. I think I speak for all when I say that one would rather start his own thing than continue what someone else has started.

    Besides MOST IMPORTANTLY tanking will fetch Raps. a GOOD draft pick in a talent filled draft.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  12. #392
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Because of philosophical difference between Ujiri and BC. I think I speak for all when I say that one would rather start his own thing than continue what someone else has started.
    So everybody on roster, they all fit in with Colangelo's philosophies but not Ujiri's? Did he say this? What I remember him saying is that he liked some of the pieces and some he didn't like.

    Amir Johnson isn't a guy who can fit in with any team philosophy?

    Or what about Gray?

    Or Ross?

    Or Gay?

    Or JV?

    Or even Lowry? I mean the Rockets and Raptors are two entirely different beasts.

    What is it about these guys that limits them to only being able to function in Colangelo's world? Maybe they fit better in a more orthodox system?

    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Besides MOST IMPORTANTLY tanking will fetch Raps. a GOOD draft pick in a talent filled draft.
    We both know there is no certainty in that. Ujiri gives himself up to chance to get the pick and then the draft is a crapshoot in itself.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 01:29 PM. Reason: .

  13. #393
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    @Fully you are getting caught up in details. TL mentioned "3 roads". I think people were curious what the middle road would look like. All details aside...I guess you could even go the player A, player B route if you like. We send out a good player

    In this example Player A, Henceforth known as Pasta McCalfsore makes roughly 12 million dollars, Player B, aka Kenneth Von Staredown is an expiring 4 million dollar injury case. Golden State has 20 million dollars in expiring contracts and picks, in order to get them we are forced to give up Player C aka Amir Johnson.

    We win because we shed not one but two useless players. GSW wins because two of the three players they pick up can contribute where the two expiring deals they had before do not. We win again because more than likely by the trade deadline, as happens every year, some team goes...ah fuck we built this wrong time to blow it up. (which ironically enough might be us this year)
    The Raptors win because they're giving up not one, but two useless players.... and replacing them with not one, but two... useless... players... wait, what?

    Golden State wins because they get two contributing players... Amir Johnson and Bargnani (I'm assuming that's who you meant), who YOU JUST CALLED USELESS IN THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE. Did his value completely change in the midst of that paragraph? I'm confused.

    Plus they currently have roughly $25 million coming off the books next summer. They're going to flush a chance to add a max player to that ridiculous young core down the toilet so they can try to rekindle the career of Il Mago?

    It's not happening.

  14. #394
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So everybody on roster, they all fit in with Colangelo's philosophies but not Ujiri's? Did he say this? What I remember him saying is that he liked some of the pieces and some he didn't like.
    I didn't say that everybody should be traded. That being said, hanging on to Gay and his enormous salary is senseless just because Ujiri likes Gay the player(just an example).
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  15. #395
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Why is it senseless? Are they going to increase ticket prices and make us pay for Gay's salary? If they're not doing that then keeping him around at that price makes sense for me the fan. It makes perfect sense to me; he's a really good player. The best on the team.

  16. #396
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    We both know there is no certainty in that.
    I said GOOD(4-7) not GREAT(1-3) pick. If we end up with a 1-3 pick, GREAT, Worth it IMO.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  17. #397
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The trade scenarios were not the important part. At least I know super moderator thead got the message.

    Yes, when you state the trade as you have then it is insane. But the Raptors gave up DeRozan to get the opportunity to take on Biedrins and another pick. The Warriors also received Marion. Who would you rather give $20M to: Jefferson/Biedrins or Bargnani/Marion - especially when you have Carl Landry opting out and Jarrett Jack to resign?

    Bogut will be a highly productive 29 year old C next summer looking for one final pay day. When you see the contracts McGee and Jordan got, he is going to be making closer to $15 than $9M - there goes that max salary you were talking about.





    Again, the ridiculous trades were not the important. If you don't think something with the same or similar end results cannot be done, then that is fine. I personally think it can be done if you find one of those 7/11 teams who think they are better than they actually are or going to be OR if you find a team looking to unload bad contracts and are already extremely young.

    Players might become expendable, they might not. They might become sign and trade possibilities, or they might not. They might draft players that make them expendable, they might not. My whole point is flexibility and keeping options open while maximizing return on assets. The Raptors are not near a contending team and there is a strong possibility they might not even be a playoff team.

    Why shoot for the 7th/8th seed over the next 2 years with a core you don't plan on sticking with? Because situations don't exist in a vacuum. It is becoming cliche to go back to Indiana, but lets do it anyways. Where were they 3 years ago? 32 wins in the draft where they took George at #10. Where were they 2 years ago? 37 wins in the playoffs at the 8th seed losing 4-1 to Chicago with a starting lineup of Collison, Rush/Dunleavy/George, Grangers, McRoberts/Hansbrough, Hibbert. Where were they 1 year ago? 42 wins in the playoffs where they lost in the 2nd round to Orlando 4-1 with a starting lineup of Collison, George, Granger, West, Hibbert. Where were they this year? 49 wins and in the playoffs where they lost in the 3rd round/Conference Finals in game 7 with a starting lineup of Hill, Stephenson, George, West, Hibbert. If you have a plan and continue to bring in pieces that fit that plan (i.e. you continue to evolve and grow) you can still compete while building a contender.

    Do you know what I'm tired of? The inability to think abstractly. Everything is not black and white. And I'm not sure if you label me as the anti-tank crowd or not but I'm happy to blow it up but in blowing it up, is Lowry, Gay, Amir, DeRozan going to return you nearly guaranteed lottery draft picks? And if they don't are you willing to accept pennies on the dollar to ensure your own draft pick might turn in to a winner?
    I'm done repeating myself. At this point, we'll have to see how it plays out. I am confident that most of you will eventually end up in the same place as me - because quite frankly, that's usually what happens around here.

    The last thing I will say is that you are way, way off on Bogut. He averaged 6 points and 7 rebounds this year and missed 50 games with injury. He missed over 50 games the previous season before. He is not a "highly productive" centre anymore as his stats have been in decline for three seasons and counting, plus he's one of the most injury prone players in the league. There's no way he comes close to a $15 million salary again next summer and I think he'd be lucky to get $7.5 million. If he has another injury filled season next year then he may not exceed $5 million. All of the offers will likely be 2-3 years because of the injury risk.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 01:44 PM.

  18. #398
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I said GOOD(4-7) not GREAT(1-3) pick. If we end up with a 1-3 pick, GREAT, Worth it IMO.
    4-7 guarantees nothing. Many players taken in that range bomb. We've even seen in from Raptors draft picks. Why can't they build and work a trade for a pick later if they see someone they like? That keeps the control in hand. Sure, they may not be able to work the deal for the pick but at the same time they may not be able to draft the guy they want if they bomb and "win" the pick. If it was me I prefer more control, not less. My name would be on the line with every decision after all.

  19. #399
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why is it senseless? Are they going to increase ticket prices and make us pay for Gay's salary? If they're not doing that then keeping him around at that price makes sense for me the fan. It makes perfect sense to me; he's a really good player. The best on the team.
    Hanging on to Gay is senseless mainly because it reduces our chances of STINKING. I guess the words 'enormous salary' confused you. Sorry. I mentioned that because big salaries are borne by teams when they compete. Usually.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  20. #400
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Fans who wish for losing deserve nothing more than losing.

    And there is far more at play on a team with a toilet reputation in the league than getting lucky with a couple lotto picks.

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