Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

[p00ka]

IMO, tanking, as in purposely unloading all your good assets, target being the worst team you can be, to pray for lottery & crap shoot luck is a silly option to begin with, but what I get a kick out of is that when asked for even a smidgen of a blueprint, virtually everybody speaks of unloading everybody but JV and getting draft picks and young prospects.

Ummmm, you may bicker about how a few more losses here or there may have landed better young prospects, but that is what this team has been doing since Bosh left. Since then, there has been no crazy FA signings, a la Turk, no wild ass trades trying for a homerun with an over the hill injured J.O. type (Gay is very different and I'll get to him). It's all been about building through the draft, and where we are today is a team full of young prospects that people say blow up and get young prospects,,,,,,,,,,,, huh?

JV - 21, just
DD- 23,,,,,,,,, some say he is what he is, but that's ridiculous. The guy works his butt off to improve, does every year, and is still 4-5 years away from the average peaking age in the NBA, and is damn durable enough to never miss a game in 3 years. He's the epitome of a good young prospect you want on a team.
Ross- 22
Fields -24

The Raps also drafted Davis, who nobody had much use for at the beginning of the year, but he improved his stock just enough to include with expiring Jose and land Gay (26), who is overpaid, but only 2 years left if he doesn't work out.

We also have an ever improving Amir (26) who is the type of heart and soul player every team needs.

We traded for Lowry (27), who may or may not be a long term starter, but he only has 1 year left on his contract.

That's the top 7 key guys on this team, and they average out to 24 years old. This isn't just a young prospect or two, but a young prospect of a TEAM that has only begun to learn to play with each other.

We don't just have a young core, most nowhere near their prime, we have a 7 man rotation of young prospects, that we have no idea how well they can mesh together yet, as only DD and Amir played together before, all the rest are new and didn't play full seasons due either to late season acquisition (Gay) or injuries (Lowry, Fields, even Gay), or rookie bench warming (Ross).

We've spent 4 years already making lottery picks, already have a team full of young prospects, but people want to blow it up and start all over again????

I'll try and play along by asking which of these guys would you unload, and for what do you imagine to get back that will be draft picks you think will help, include players that help this tank plan work, and prospects that will be better than what we already have, not worse. In other words, give an example of moves that you think are feasible, that will ensure a tank, and get prospects and draft picks that are worth the effort and lottery prayers?

[mcHAPPY]

What I want to know, is for the guys who don't think a proper rebuild is the way to go -- what do you think we should do?

We're paying luxury tax this summer and we'll be over the cap for the next two seasons.

I've read some interesting arguments, but let's hear some fresh ideas! Brainstorm away!

Not sure anything fresh coming here but here goes:

1) Build the same way you would through the draft (financial flexibility, facilitate for other teams to gain assets, draft picks, free agency), just keep the 'core' talent the team already has. I would call the core JV and Gay. The solid role players are already in place and are all 26 or younger (Amir, LF, Ross). The advantage to building this way is the Raptors already have a team that can fit with a vision. This is much easier to do than wait for the lottery balls to bounce and see where players fall on draft night.

2) obtain flexibility sooner than later - Bargnani for any expiring contract in the league.... ANY!

3) Deal the assets that may have value for any combination of pieces that fit better (DeRozan for Milsap; DeRozan for Ridnour/#9) or prospects (Lowry to Dallas for Marion and #13).

4) Help be facilitators. Already mentioned Lowry to Dallas to help them unload Marion, how about Houston? They might be looking to sign and trade to get Josh Smith to give them enough space to also sign Dwight Howard outright. Crazy thought but possible assuming Atlanta had a desire to take on DeRozan and Asik with Toronto taking back one of Terrence Jones/Montiejunas/Robinson and Jeremy Lin (remember Lowry went to Dallas).


So lets put all the ideas in to place to brainstorm and get fresh ideas as requested:

a) 3 team deal to get Dallas cap space: Toronto-Dallas-Golden State
Dallas: Lowry
Golden State: Bargnani, Marion
Toronto: Biedrins, Jefferson, #13 (Schroeder), Jae Crowder

b) 3 team sign and trade to get Houston Josh Smith:
Houston: Josh Smith
Atlanta: Asik, DeRozan, (maybe other Houston player?)
Toronto: Jeremy Lin, Terrence Jones/Montiejunas/Robinson


Toronto enters season with:

PG: Lin, Schroeder
SG: Fields, Ross
SF: Gay, Crowder, Jefferson
PF: Amir, Jones/Montiejunas/Robinson, Acy
C: JV, Gray, Biedrins

Plus they still have the MLE to work with and over $22M in expiring contracts for 2014 and $41M in expiring contracts in 2015 with a core of (age in 2 years in brackets) Schroeder (21), Ross (23), Crowder (24), Jones/Montiejunas/Robinson (23), Acy (24), and JV (22) under contract and all still on rookie deals plus their own draft pick in 2014 and 2015.


So to those saying tear it down and trade away, I'm not seeing why you can't be competitive with a scenario like the above and compete while still building towards a contender. I'm not saying this is what could/should/would happen, just giving fresh ideas (or attempting to) as ebrian requested. There are countless other scenarios that could end up with similar results like the above.

[ebrian]

I'm confused as to how the discussion went from proper rebuilding to tanking. Somewhere along the way someone against proper rebuilding changed the topic to being against tanking, and then everyone against tanking jumped in and used teams like Charlotte and New Orleans to prove that tanking doesn't work.

Congratulations, I agree tanking sucks. But the Raptors still need to properly rebuild. Someone said they thought the Raptors have the bones of a good team. Really? We won 34 games, and we have the bones of a good team? Unless you mean we own a pinky fingernail, then I don't understand how in a month's time after our 34th win, people suddenly turned into harbingers of optimism.

What's even more astounding is that we're in the middle of the playoffs, where we are literally watching teams who did it right. I mean I understand we've rid ourselves of Colangelo, but this is still the same team that won 34 games, has no cap space and no draft picks.

[thead]

I'm allergic to intentional losing. I would no longer be a Raptors fan if they went that route

[Apollo]

Someone said they thought the Raptors have the bones of a good team. Really? We won 34 games, and we have the bones of a good team? Unless you mean we own a pinky fingernail, then I don't understand how in a month's time after our 34th win, people suddenly turned into harbingers of optimism.

You're taking that out of context. That comment was directed at the strategy that everything should be gutted. JV, Gay, Johnson, you're telling me these guys can be part of a core group?

[Mediumcore]

I'm allergic to intentional losing. I would no longer be a Raptors fan if they went that route

You'll be back. They always come back.

[Mediumcore]

I think the Raptors have an opportunity to get to respectability in the next 2 years and have all sorts of flexibility to contend after that. It is going to be much easier to make use of the cap space from a position of respectability versus bottom-feeder.

How do you see things unfolding over the next couple of years that will bring us to a point of repectability though? By all accounts that should have happened this season, but did not. A lot of things need to go right for us to keep this core and be respectable. For all the talk about how tanking won't necessarily land you a top pick and a lot needs to go correctly to land a good pick it should be considered that just as much good fortune would need to go into all the parts of this team coming together to be competetive. And what is the ceiling? 4th to 6th seed? And then in two years is Toronto going to be a hot destination for an elite level player to come play for and put us over the top? That's a lot of good fortune we are hoping for.

I was just thinking about the Indiana blue print which I think most here whom don't want to see a tank job, would like to see the Raptors follow. It's based on having a lot of good players, but none that are outstanding ie., not the type of players we are hoping to land through the draft. Very similar to Detroit when they made their run. However that Detroit team is now a bottom feeder because they had no elite level player(s) to build around. Think about all of the teams in the last decade or even further back. Chicago with MJ, Houston with Hakeem, Lakers with Kobe, Spurs with Duncan...these teams were all built around elite level players and they were able to not make a single run, but multiple runs. That should be what we are aiming to do, not put together scrap parts to be respectable, imo.

[p00ka]

I'm confused as to how the discussion went from proper rebuilding to tanking. Somewhere along the way someone against proper rebuilding changed the topic to being against tanking, and then everyone against tanking jumped in and used teams like Charlotte and New Orleans to prove that tanking doesn't work.

Congratulations, I agree tanking sucks. But the Raptors still need to properly rebuild. Someone said they thought the Raptors have the bones of a good team. Really? We won 34 games, and we have the bones of a good team? Unless you mean we own a pinky fingernail, then I don't understand how in a month's time after our 34th win, people suddenly turned into harbingers of optimism.

What's even more astounding is that we're in the middle of the playoffs, where we are literally watching teams who did it right. I mean I understand we've rid ourselves of Colangelo, but this is still the same team that won 34 games, has no cap space and no draft picks.

I've been seeing a lot of this "34 win team" thing, implying we'd be going into next season with the same team that only won 34. IMO, it's a twisted use of the win column number. There's a multitude of reasons the revolving door team (multiple injuries, then the trade created soooooo many different line-ups) that scrambled together those wins is not the same team that will begin next season.

I won't spend the time to detail it all, but Jose and ED are gone, AB will soon be. We started the year with 3 rookies (they won't be different/better???), 2 other NEW key players in Lowry, who was nursing his two early injuries all year, and Fields who began the year as a damaged goods starting SF. It's reasonable to expect all of these guys to produce better next year. As hungry as this team has been, for so long, for a SF that could make a difference, we finally got one in Gay, though he barely had the time to say hello to all his teammates, while struggling with an eyesight issue. It's more than reasonable to expect that both hardworking DD and Amir will continue to improve.

What exactly do you consider a "proper rebuild"? I know I consider putting a collection of young talent together, then letting them grow together is a big part of what I envision when I think of that term. Of the following key players (my opinion) moving forward (even if 1 or 2 end up being moved for better fits) they are all young, talented, and only 2 ever played together on this team before last season, and due to injuries and late season trade, barely played together last season: JV (21), Gay (26), DD (23), Lowry (27), Fields (24), Ross (22), Amir (26), Acy (22). I'd say there's good reason to believe most of these players will improve individually next year, and that all of them will be better in knowing how to play with each other, which is a much bigger thing at this level than many seem to understand. I see a rebuild, with young players, very much in progress, in it's early stages, but I'm interested in knowing what you feel a "proper rebuild" is, that isn't happening, unless you think tanking for a Wiggins prayer is the answer.

We need a serviceable (minimum) PF/C and a backup PG, but I see reason for great optimism. I would think that AB can return at least one of those. Will they be "contenders" next year? Of course not, but remember that the Pacers, with almost the exact same team were 1st round fodder 2 years ago, went out in the 2nd round last year, and look where they are this year. We finally have a decent TEAM of YOUNG TALENT, first round picks next year and beyond, and I think that with good management and coaching, they're well on the way to a proper rebuild.

[wallz]

I've been seeing a lot of this "34 win team" thing, implying we'd be going into next season with the same team that only won 34. IMO, it's a twisted use of the win column number. There's a multitude of reasons the revolving door team (multiple injuries, then the trade created soooooo many different line-ups) that scrambled together those wins is not the same team that will begin next season.

I won't spend the time to detail it all, but Jose and ED are gone, AB will soon be. We started the year with 3 rookies (they won't be different/better???), 2 other NEW key players in Lowry, who was nursing his two early injuries all year, and Fields who began the year as a damaged goods starting SF. It's reasonable to expect all of these guys to produce better next year. As hungry as this team has been, for so long, for a SF that could make a difference, we finally got one in Gay, though he barely had the time to say hello to all his teammates, while struggling with an eyesight issue. It's more than reasonable to expect that both hardworking DD and Amir will continue to improve.

What exactly do you consider a "proper rebuild"? I know I consider putting a collection of young talent together, then letting them grow together is a big part of what I envision when I think of that term. Of the following key players (my opinion) moving forward (even if 1 or 2 end up being moved for better fits) they are all young, talented, and only 2 ever played together on this team before last season, and due to injuries and late season trade, barely played together last season: JV (21), Gay (26), DD (23), Lowry (27), Fields (24), Ross (22), Amir (26), Acy (22). I'd say there's good reason to believe most of these players will improve individually next year, and that all of them will be better in knowing how to play with each other, which is a much bigger thing at this level than many seem to understand. I see a rebuild, with young players, very much in progress, in it's early stages, but I'm interested in knowing what you feel a "proper rebuild" is, that isn't happening, unless you think tanking for a Wiggins prayer is the answer.

We need a serviceable (minimum) PF/C and a backup PG, but I see reason for great optimism. I would think that AB can return at least one of those. Will they be "contenders" next year? Of course not, but remember that the Pacers, with almost the exact same team were 1st round fodder 2 years ago, went out in the 2nd round last year, and look where they are this year. We finally have a decent TEAM of YOUNG TALENT, first round picks next year and beyond, and I think that with good management and coaching, they're well on the way to a proper rebuild.

Good post, kind of refreshing hearing some optimism about the current roster. I really hope you're right about the team being on a good path for the future.

I also understand the viewpoint of accumulating young talent via draft instead of the current rebuild. I'm usually on board with the draft/tanking procedure, but the Raptors have already taken a different route (although they did get a few of their assets via draft). I'm just going to hope the new GM will find a way to make this work..

[white men can't jump]

I've been seeing a lot of this "34 win team" thing, implying we'd be going into next season with the same team that only won 34. IMO, it's a twisted use of the win column number. There's a multitude of reasons the revolving door team (multiple injuries, then the trade created soooooo many different line-ups) that scrambled together those wins is not the same team that will begin next season.

I won't spend the time to detail it all, but Jose and ED are gone, AB will soon be. We started the year with 3 rookies (they won't be different/better???), 2 other NEW key players in Lowry, who was nursing his two early injuries all year, and Fields who began the year as a damaged goods starting SF. It's reasonable to expect all of these guys to produce better next year. As hungry as this team has been, for so long, for a SF that could make a difference, we finally got one in Gay, though he barely had the time to say hello to all his teammates, while struggling with an eyesight issue. It's more than reasonable to expect that both hardworking DD and Amir will continue to improve.

What exactly do you consider a "proper rebuild"? I know I consider putting a collection of young talent together, then letting them grow together is a big part of what I envision when I think of that term. Of the following key players (my opinion) moving forward (even if 1 or 2 end up being moved for better fits) they are all young, talented, and only 2 ever played together on this team before last season, and due to injuries and late season trade, barely played together last season: JV (21), Gay (26), DD (23), Lowry (27), Fields (24), Ross (22), Amir (26), Acy (22). I'd say there's good reason to believe most of these players will improve individually next year, and that all of them will be better in knowing how to play with each other, which is a much bigger thing at this level than many seem to understand. I see a rebuild, with young players, very much in progress, in it's early stages, but I'm interested in knowing what you feel a "proper rebuild" is, that isn't happening, unless you think tanking for a Wiggins prayer is the answer.

We need a serviceable (minimum) PF/C and a backup PG, but I see reason for great optimism. I would think that AB can return at least one of those. Will they be "contenders" next year? Of course not, but remember that the Pacers, with almost the exact same team were 1st round fodder 2 years ago, went out in the 2nd round last year, and look where they are this year. We finally have a decent TEAM of YOUNG TALENT, first round picks next year and beyond, and I think that with good management and coaching, they're well on the way to a proper rebuild.

I think Raptors fans are also unfamiliar with how a well managed team can keep "building on the fly", so to speak. For the first time in....ever?....the Raptors have some talent at every position, even if it all doesn't fit well (with PF being the most lacking, obviously, but Amir is a legit NBA big and easily part of any 3-man rotation). That is not a bad position to be in. It is not necessary to tank again, to blow it up and stockpile picks and young assets.

The team has young assets. This team is absolutely more "talented" than the 47-win team around Bosh. Not saying they can perform better, because having savvy veterans (Rasho, Garbo, Parker, Mo Pete) is very helpful. But they can definitely keep working on winning (instead of tanking), and they definitely have pieces that can actually bring back interesting assets. What this team needs to do is move forward carefully....The new GM can't aggressively dump players. He needs to evaluate them properly. One or two careful moves, and this team could have a legit top-tier core. People talk about team-building like you need a pile of first round picks to create a young core...you only need 2-3 high-calibre players that fit together and can be kept together for a few years. JV and Gay could be part of that core...though personally I'm not the biggest Gay fan and if he's here long term, his next contract better take a serious cut. But add a top-tier PF or guard to those 2, and that could be the core of a top-seeded playoff team for years.

I understand the "blow it up" mentality...but realistically, I don't think the Raps can do that moving into next season. Maybe in Gay's last year, when they have several expiring deals, and JV will still be young and on his rookie deal. It would be their last chance to "tank" for 2015...and maybe the next season after as well....to add high draft picks next to JV, and clear some capspace. But again, that should only be done if things REALLY fall apart and they vastly underachieve. Right now, "blowing it up" seems like an overly pessimistic view....as if this is the roster built around Bargs-DeMar-Jose that BC said he would "retool" around....no...this is different. This core actually has a fair amount of talent...it just isn't the best group fit-wise on paper.

Again, I just think that patiently making moves, one at a time, could easily morph this team into a pretty strong club in the next 2-3 years. It'll be up to the new GM to maximize his assets...and I don't think blowing it up and ditching guys for caprelief and/or picks is maximizing any asset this team currently has (Bargs and Fields are the only ones with super low value). Anyone else should be worth something, where alone they could bring necessary small adjustments, or combined they could bring in a high-calibre player.

[mcHAPPY]

How do you see things unfolding over the next couple of years that will bring us to a point of repectability though? By all accounts that should have happened this season, but did not. A lot of things need to go right for us to keep this core and be respectable. For all the talk about how tanking won't necessarily land you a top pick and a lot needs to go correctly to land a good pick it should be considered that just as much good fortune would need to go into all the parts of this team coming together to be competetive. And what is the ceiling? 4th to 6th seed? And then in two years is Toronto going to be a hot destination for an elite level player to come play for and put us over the top? That's a lot of good fortune we are hoping for.

I think it is safe to say Colangelo had some meddling going on with Casey - I have nothing to back that up with other than innuendo and rumours. Colangelo is now gone. I wonder what would have happened had Casey not been the obedient soldier Colangelo expected of him. Also, this last season was a season of inconsistency and upheaval. From "come hell or high water" to "lets clone Jose in to Lowry" to "the trade" the season was uneven at best. Despite this they finished 3 wins out of the playoffs albeit with an #AprilFoolsGold run. I think there has been a lot of confusion from management on down the last 2 seasons about what type of team the Raptors were expected to be with a lot of lip service paid to defense, accountability, and winning culture. With Colangelo no longer running basketball ops the hope I have is consistency, patience towards building, and finding pieces that fit the build/vision.

A lot of good things do need to be right with THIS core. However, if you trade a couple of core pieces for pieces that better fit or obtain other assets suddenly things change. The Raptors have good pieces to work with, all of them don't fit together nicely is the problem.

As for how I see things unfolding, I've laid out numerous hypothetical situations with all have the common thread of obtaining prospects, picks, and expiring contracts for DeRozan, Bargnani, and possibly Lowry.

I was just thinking about the Indiana blue print which I think most here whom don't want to see a tank job, would like to see the Raptors follow. It's based on having a lot of good players, but none that are outstanding ie., not the type of players we are hoping to land through the draft. Very similar to Detroit when they made their run. However that Detroit team is now a bottom feeder because they had no elite level player(s) to build around. Think about all of the teams in the last decade or even further back. Chicago with MJ, Houston with Hakeem, Lakers with Kobe, Spurs with Duncan...these teams were all built around elite level players and they were able to not make a single run, but multiple runs. That should be what we are aiming to do, not put together scrap parts to be respectable, imo.

I don't think Indiana to Detroit is a fair comparison. Position by position the edge goes to the Pistons except SF and on offense at C. Detroit is a bottom feeder because Dumars traded Billups for Iverson and then killed their cap situation with Gordon and Charlie V in free agency.

You example of great players leads us back to the same discussion: you put all your eggs in one basket to get a franchise player at the top of the draft hoping balls line up, talent is available in draft year, and franchise talent is available when you turn to pick comes up then you hope you can make the franchise respectable after years of losing to ensure the talent does not leave at first chance.... no thanks.

[jimmie]

I think Raptors fans are also unfamiliar with how a well managed team can keep "building on the fly", so to speak. For the first time in....ever?....the Raptors have some talent at every position, even if it all doesn't fit well (with PF being the most lacking, obviously, but Amir is a legit NBA big and easily part of any 3-man rotation). That is not a bad position to be in. It is not necessary to tank again, to blow it up and stockpile picks and young assets.

The team has young assets. This team is absolutely more "talented" than the 47-win team around Bosh. Not saying they can perform better, because having savvy veterans (Rasho, Garbo, Parker, Mo Pete) is very helpful. But they can definitely keep working on winning (instead of tanking), and they definitely have pieces that can actually bring back interesting assets. What this team needs to do is move forward carefully....The new GM can't aggressively dump players. He needs to evaluate them properly. One or two careful moves, and this team could have a legit top-tier core. People talk about team-building like you need a pile of first round picks to create a young core...you only need 2-3 high-calibre players that fit together and can be kept together for a few years. JV and Gay could be part of that core...though personally I'm not the biggest Gay fan and if he's here long term, his next contract better take a serious cut. But add a top-tier PF or guard to those 2, and that could be the core of a top-seeded playoff team for years.

I understand the "blow it up" mentality...but realistically, I don't think the Raps can do that moving into next season. Maybe in Gay's last year, when they have several expiring deals, and JV will still be young and on his rookie deal. It would be their last chance to "tank" for 2015...and maybe the next season after as well....to add high draft picks next to JV, and clear some capspace. But again, that should only be done if things REALLY fall apart and they vastly underachieve. Right now, "blowing it up" seems like an overly pessimistic view....as if this is the roster built around Bargs-DeMar-Jose that BC said he would "retool" around....no...this is different. This core actually has a fair amount of talent...it just isn't the best group fit-wise on paper.

Again, I just think that patiently making moves, one at a time, could easily morph this team into a pretty strong club in the next 2-3 years. It'll be up to the new GM to maximize his assets...and I don't think blowing it up and ditching guys for caprelief and/or picks is maximizing any asset this team currently has (Bargs and Fields are the only ones with super low value). Anyone else should be worth something, where alone they could bring necessary small adjustments, or combined they could bring in a high-calibre player.

I agree with almost all of this. I probably disagree on who = "the core" of an eventual championship-contending Raptors team, but the strategy itself, definitely agree.

For instance, I still have a hard time understanding the majority willing to give Gay the benefit of the doubt in terms of being the SF of the future on this team. He's drastically overpaid against production, and will demand equal or higher money to re-sign. Personally, the 2nd part of that sentence would spell his doom in TO if I were the GM. That money is going to come in handy in other places around the same time: flex for JV's new contract, keeping Lowry (although I'd look closely at that situation as well, for similar reasons), etc.

Generally speaking, though, rebuilding can and should be done, IMO, via incremental moves with a view to a (much) bigger, longer-term picture. As fans, we tend to look at next season; as management, I'd hope TL and the new GM will be more focused on an eventual championship team, and make moves now that will build toward that.

[white men can't jump]

I agree with almost all of this. I probably disagree on who = "the core" of an eventual championship-contending Raptors team, but the strategy itself, definitely agree.

For instance, I still have a hard time understanding the majority willing to give Gay the benefit of the doubt in terms of being the SF of the future on this team. He's drastically overpaid against production, and will demand equal or higher money to re-sign. Personally, the 2nd part of that sentence would spell his doom in TO if I were the GM. That money is going to come in handy in other places around the same time: flex for JV's new contract, keeping Lowry (although I'd look closely at that situation as well, for similar reasons), etc.

Generally speaking, though, rebuilding can and should be done, IMO, via incremental moves with a view to a (much) bigger, longer-term picture. As fans, we tend to look at next season; as management, I'd hope TL and the new GM will be more focused on an eventual championship team, and make moves now that will build toward that.

I agree with the first part of the bold, but not the second. I do think Gay is overpaid, but I also think there's no NBA team in the league that would consider giving him the same or more money. The number I'm ok with to re-sign him at, is at most, 10-12 million on a 2-3 year contract. He has the skills you want from a SF, and he performs at a pretty high level. He's not efficient or consistent enough to make franchise player money though.

I think Gay could be the SF on a contender. For instance, I don't think he would've hurt Memphis' playoff run at all this season, and might've been extremely valuable, even as a decoy that the D has to pay attention to, against San Antonio.

The problem with Gay is that he probably can't be in the top 2 players on your team, impact-wise. I think JV will be a better player in terms of impact. I also think the team has pieces to shop for another piece like that. But then in order for it to make sense to keep Gay, he has to take a paycut. This is where a new GM is crucial. There are several options I'd be ok with for Gay. Like I said, for 2-3 years, I might be fine with 10-12 per. I'd also be interested in other options like frontloading it on a longer deal so that he becomes easier and easier to trade. Or maybe a longer deal that just shaves a bit off the yearly average, but still is too lucrative for him to pass up in total dollars over a shorter deal with less security.

[p00ka]

On the other hand, if Gay plays well enough for the next couple of years that he can even contemplate demanding equal or greater money without being laughed at, us Raps' fans will have a lot to cheer about for those 2 years.

[jimmie]

I agree with the first part of the bold, but not the second. I do think Gay is overpaid, but I also think there's no NBA team in the league that would consider giving him the same or more money. The number I'm ok with to re-sign him at, is at most, 10-12 million on a 2-3 year contract. He has the skills you want from a SF, and he performs at a pretty high level. He's not efficient or consistent enough to make franchise player money though.

I think Gay could be the SF on a contender. For instance, I don't think he would've hurt Memphis' playoff run at all this season, and might've been extremely valuable, even as a decoy that the D has to pay attention to, against San Antonio.

The problem with Gay is that he probably can't be in the top 2 players on your team, impact-wise. I think JV will be a better player in terms of impact. I also think the team has pieces to shop for another piece like that. But then in order for it to make sense to keep Gay, he has to take a paycut. This is where a new GM is crucial. There are several options I'd be ok with for Gay. Like I said, for 2-3 years, I might be fine with 10-12 per. I'd also be interested in other options like frontloading it on a longer deal so that he becomes easier and easier to trade. Or maybe a longer deal that just shaves a bit off the yearly average, but still is too lucrative for him to pass up in total dollars over a shorter deal with less security.

OK, if that's the number (10-12 over 2-3) TO will offer and if he will accept, I can get on board. Otherwise, I'd rather pay $9.5M for Derozan, who wouldn't necessarily be playing under the assumption that he's got carte blanche as the alpha dog (this is what I saw from Gay in TO this year; and I don't blame him, b/c I have little doubt that's the bill of goods Colangelo sold him).

I'm skeptical that Rudy won't be offered more than $12M by some team, however. I know that teams are supposedly being more financially prudent these days, but there's not a ton of evidence to support that notion. Teams are still overpaying for value.

I absolutely agree he can be a starting SF on a contender -- but not someone the offense should run through or who should be getting volume shots because he's the top dog. Which makes it super-important to put him in the role NOW that you want him to be in when the team is contending. Need to see if he can accept/adapt to being a 3rd wheel, which he didn't seem happy doing in Memphis... If he can't adjust to where he fits in the long-term, big scheme, then they know he has to be moved ASAP for best possible return (and I realize "ASAP" might be in 14/15 when he's expiring, but they can theoretically move him any time).