View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 32.43%
  • Tweaker

    25 67.57%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #501
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    35% and 37% doesn't really scream out accurate. I would say his more of streaky shooter than an actually a 3 point shooter.
    If you look at his shot chart there are some interesting things.

    Left corner: 8/19 42.11%
    Left above break: 22/47 46.81%
    middle: 4/12 33.33%
    Right above break: 24/77 31.17%
    Right corner: 7/39 17.95%

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...layerID=203082


    Looking at the shot chart, I keep thinking about the plays where he runs off the screens baseline and curls out for a three point shot. **cringing** Essentially, Casey had him running the exact same college plays (someone else said college, I'd say high school but whatever) as DeRozan but Ross took 3's.

    With his feet set, catch and shoot, I think Ross is extremely dangerous. He would greatly benefit from a punch and kick or north/south attack the basket style of play rather than the east/west style Casey seems to think is the "right" way.
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  2. #502
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    has anyone considered the idea of trying to go after monta ellis?
    not sure if it would work for sign and trade because he already declined milwaukees contract, but a monta for demar kind of deal would fill our needs and get jennings to stay with the bucks.
    monta would give us a second ball handler and could fill the backup pg duties as well

  3. #503
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    has anyone considered the idea of trying to go after monta ellis?
    not sure if it would work for sign and trade because he already declined milwaukees contract, but a monta for demar kind of deal would fill our needs and get jennings to stay with the bucks.
    monta would give us a second ball handler and could fill the backup pg duties as well
    I like the transition Monta's made in his game...from the ball hog inefficient scorer in GS to the facilitator he's become in Milwaukee. If he continues to make further improvements as a facilitator then I'd gladly welcome him here. He's a stark opposite to DeMar, who can't do anything without the ball in his hands.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  4. #504
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I like the transition Monta's made in his game...from the ball hog inefficient scorer in GS to the facilitator he's become in Milwaukee. If he continues to make further improvements as a facilitator then I'd gladly welcome him here. He's a stark opposite to DeMar, who can't do anything without the ball in his hands.
    Ellis is still a inefficient scorer. With his height his a worse defender than Dd

    DD>Ellis

  5. #505
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Ellis is still a inefficient scorer. With his height his a worse defender than Dd

    DD>Ellis
    I agree, but what I'm saying is Ellis brings more to the table offensively than DD. We already have our scorer in Rudy, so this would also get rid of the wing conflict we have with DD/Rudy's games being so similar.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  6. #506
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I agree, but what I'm saying is Ellis brings more to the table offensively than DD. We already have our scorer in Rudy, so this would also get rid of the wing conflict we have with DD/Rudy's games being so similar.
    It only makes the problem worse... Ellis doesn't bring anything else to the table and he needs the ball to be a factor
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  7. #507
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    It only makes the problem worse... Ellis doesn't bring anything else to the table and he needs the ball to be a factor
    Agreed!

  8. #508
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I like the transition Monta's made in his game...from the ball hog inefficient scorer in GS to the facilitator he's become in Milwaukee. If he continues to make further improvements as a facilitator then I'd gladly welcome him here. He's a stark opposite to DeMar, who can't do anything without the ball in his hands.
    Ellis is an even less efficient scorer than DeRozan is. DD takes less shots and hits more of them. Their 3P% were nearly identical last season but DeRozan shot about 3 less of them per game. I will concede that he's been underrated as a distributor the last few seasons, but I don't see the value he brings when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He's got great steal numbers but is overall a below average defender, and starting him beside a smallish point guard in Lowry causes a lot of matchup problems in the backcourt.

    Of course, if we are really aiming to be next year's version of the Milwaukee Bucks... it's probably a good move.

  9. #509
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Aside from the issues of inefficiency (which we already have plenty of), Ellis is a bad fit with Lowry. Not an option.

  10. #510
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Keep for Sure:

    - Amir Johnson
    - Quincy Acy
    - Kyle Lowry
    - Landry Fields
    - Jonas Valanciunas

    Peresonaly, I would start all of them except Acy.

    Meh, keep or trade:

    - DeMar DeRozan
    - Rudy Gay
    - Terrence Ross

    Two overpaid, below average wings. One with at least some potential. Keep if you can't upgrade, but this is where we really need the upgrade, as has been the case for a long time. Would start Fields over all of them.


    The rest of the team is irrelevant, and hopefully none of them playing significant minutes next year. Maybe Gray, as a big body.

  11. #511
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Is this the trade thread? Couldn't find it so I'm posting this here instead:

    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...n-Better-Offer

    How about we get involved and gang bang this trade by throwing in DD to the Clippers since they are waiting for a "better offer" than Afflolo. Bledsoe to Orlando, Aflollo to Toronto. For Toronto it gives us a better shooter (though last years numbers don't show it), and a much better defender. Plus Afflolo doesn't need the ball in his hands to be affective so it will free up shots for JV. Thoughts?

  12. #512
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Keep for Sure:

    - Amir Johnson
    - Quincy Acy
    - Kyle Lowry
    - Landry Fields
    - Jonas Valanciunas

    Peresonaly, I would start all of them except Acy.

    Meh, keep or trade:

    - DeMar DeRozan
    - Rudy Gay
    - Terrence Ross

    Two overpaid, below average wings. One with at least some potential. Keep if you can't upgrade, but this is where we really need the upgrade, as has been the case for a long time. Would start Fields over all of them.


    The rest of the team is irrelevant, and hopefully none of them playing significant minutes next year. Maybe Gray, as a big body.
    Gay is not a below average wing.

  13. #513
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Two overpaid, below average wings. One with at least some potential. Keep if you can't upgrade, but this is where we really need the upgrade, as has been the case for a long time. Would start Fields over all of them.
    How do DD and Gay get labeled "below average" and "overpaid" and Landry Fields gets started without a complaint? Lol
    In Masai we Trust.

  14. #514
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    How do DD and Gay get labeled "below average" and "overpaid" and Landry Fields gets started without a complaint? Lol
    For one, they both have WP48 below .100, while Fields doesn't. But, you are welcome to a different opinion, I was expressing mine.

  15. #515
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Gay is not a below average wing.
    Yes, he is.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/150-rudy-gay

  16. #516
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Oh god! Number aren't everything. League wide his not known as a below average wing.

  17. #517
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Oh god! Number aren't everything. League wide his not known as a below average wing.
    Numbers aren't everything, but they're something. They show that best efforts to measure his performance show him to be bellow average.

  18. #518
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Numbers aren't everything, but they're something. They show that best efforts to measure his performance show him to be bellow average.
    Even if the numbers aren't unequivocally negative, I think it's more rational to look at his impact on the teams he's been a part of. Despite his recognized talent as a SF, you can't really make an argument that he's had a huge impact one way or the other on any of those teams.

    That in itself is a problem, and one that the Raptors will need to monitor closely in the early going next season. If all these things that people are talking about now in rosy terms (new eyes, added weight, desire to be the alpha dog) result in a big change in his impact on wins/losses, then maybe he's a worthwhile asset to keep around as Vanciunas and others develop. If not, then his $16M salary will look pretty ugly to a rebuilding GM, and I can't imagine him finishing his current contract in Toronto.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  19. #519
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think I have talked myself in to a total rebuild on some conditions.

    1) you need to get a top 5 pick this year and one more,
    2) you need to get at least two extra 2014 picks (with own 3),
    3) you need to get back 1-2 players in the mold of Fields or Amir (< 25 years old proven role players that are highly efficient players).
    4) you have extra cap space for 2014-15 season to be a facilitator in deals or take on salary for tax fearing teams (for a price).


    It is not very often a team enters in to a rebuild with the hardest piece already in place - that of course being the C and JV.
    I would set the following conditions for a rebuild:

    1.) One 30-or-better pick in 2013, minimum
    2.) Two first-round picks in 2014 plus our own, or our own plus one likely lottery pick (e.g. a Charlotte or a Phoenix or the like)
    3.) Cap space in 2015-16 to begin signing free agents (our heavy drafting period should be 2013/2014)
    4.) Ed Davis back somehow

    The first can likely be done with cash. The second will probably mean giving up, at a minimum, two of Gay, DeMar, Lowry and Ross. The third should be easy to manage. The fourth: well, I can dream, right?

  20. #520
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    Can I go back to Monte? What if he was brought here strictly to play the point guard position?

    As far as value, that's a tough debate to have without including impact in the locker room. Just looking at numbers flat is a misnomer. Personally, I have Demar and Gay as highly valuable players, and Landry a trade-able asset, but that's just opinion. I don't have enough information, and I would like the time to see if LF gets his shot back.

    Let's all be honest, the Raps suck. Everyone can be had for the right price. But if the goal is a title who has a higher value staying? How much will dramatic player turnover impact interest from free agents? What players fit the playing philosophy that the team wants to develop? How many years can the general public wait on a rebuild? What would be the locker room impact of the player leaving? Sort of have to answer all those questions before you can figure out who would be best to ship out. Hopefully we will figure out what the Raptors philosophy is in the near future.

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