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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why build from scratch?
    Because of philosophical difference between Ujiri and BC. I think I speak for all when I say that one would rather start his own thing than continue what someone else has started.

    Besides MOST IMPORTANTLY tanking will fetch Raps. a GOOD draft pick in a talent filled draft.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    • Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
      Because of philosophical difference between Ujiri and BC. I think I speak for all when I say that one would rather start his own thing than continue what someone else has started.
      So everybody on roster, they all fit in with Colangelo's philosophies but not Ujiri's? Did he say this? What I remember him saying is that he liked some of the pieces and some he didn't like.

      Amir Johnson isn't a guy who can fit in with any team philosophy?

      Or what about Gray?

      Or Ross?

      Or Gay?

      Or JV?

      Or even Lowry? I mean the Rockets and Raptors are two entirely different beasts.

      What is it about these guys that limits them to only being able to function in Colangelo's world? Maybe they fit better in a more orthodox system?

      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
      Besides MOST IMPORTANTLY tanking will fetch Raps. a GOOD draft pick in a talent filled draft.
      We both know there is no certainty in that. Ujiri gives himself up to chance to get the pick and then the draft is a crapshoot in itself.
      Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 01:29 PM. Reason: .

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      • thead wrote: View Post
        @Fully you are getting caught up in details. TL mentioned "3 roads". I think people were curious what the middle road would look like. All details aside...I guess you could even go the player A, player B route if you like. We send out a good player

        In this example Player A, Henceforth known as Pasta McCalfsore makes roughly 12 million dollars, Player B, aka Kenneth Von Staredown is an expiring 4 million dollar injury case. Golden State has 20 million dollars in expiring contracts and picks, in order to get them we are forced to give up Player C aka Amir Johnson.

        We win because we shed not one but two useless players. GSW wins because two of the three players they pick up can contribute where the two expiring deals they had before do not. We win again because more than likely by the trade deadline, as happens every year, some team goes...ah fuck we built this wrong time to blow it up. (which ironically enough might be us this year)
        The Raptors win because they're giving up not one, but two useless players.... and replacing them with not one, but two... useless... players... wait, what?

        Golden State wins because they get two contributing players... Amir Johnson and Bargnani (I'm assuming that's who you meant), who YOU JUST CALLED USELESS IN THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE. Did his value completely change in the midst of that paragraph? I'm confused.

        Plus they currently have roughly $25 million coming off the books next summer. They're going to flush a chance to add a max player to that ridiculous young core down the toilet so they can try to rekindle the career of Il Mago?

        It's not happening.

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        • Apollo wrote: View Post
          So everybody on roster, they all fit in with Colangelo's philosophies but not Ujiri's? Did he say this? What I remember him saying is that he liked some of the pieces and some he didn't like.
          I didn't say that everybody should be traded. That being said, hanging on to Gay and his enormous salary is senseless just because Ujiri likes Gay the player(just an example).
          Attitude Is A Choice.

          Comment


          • Why is it senseless? Are they going to increase ticket prices and make us pay for Gay's salary? If they're not doing that then keeping him around at that price makes sense for me the fan. It makes perfect sense to me; he's a really good player. The best on the team.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              We both know there is no certainty in that.
              I said GOOD(4-7) not GREAT(1-3) pick. If we end up with a 1-3 pick, GREAT, Worth it IMO.
              Attitude Is A Choice.

              Comment


              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                The trade scenarios were not the important part. At least I know super moderator thead got the message.

                Yes, when you state the trade as you have then it is insane. But the Raptors gave up DeRozan to get the opportunity to take on Biedrins and another pick. The Warriors also received Marion. Who would you rather give $20M to: Jefferson/Biedrins or Bargnani/Marion - especially when you have Carl Landry opting out and Jarrett Jack to resign?

                Bogut will be a highly productive 29 year old C next summer looking for one final pay day. When you see the contracts McGee and Jordan got, he is going to be making closer to $15 than $9M - there goes that max salary you were talking about.





                Again, the ridiculous trades were not the important. If you don't think something with the same or similar end results cannot be done, then that is fine. I personally think it can be done if you find one of those 7/11 teams who think they are better than they actually are or going to be OR if you find a team looking to unload bad contracts and are already extremely young.

                Players might become expendable, they might not. They might become sign and trade possibilities, or they might not. They might draft players that make them expendable, they might not. My whole point is flexibility and keeping options open while maximizing return on assets. The Raptors are not near a contending team and there is a strong possibility they might not even be a playoff team.

                Why shoot for the 7th/8th seed over the next 2 years with a core you don't plan on sticking with? Because situations don't exist in a vacuum. It is becoming cliche to go back to Indiana, but lets do it anyways. Where were they 3 years ago? 32 wins in the draft where they took George at #10. Where were they 2 years ago? 37 wins in the playoffs at the 8th seed losing 4-1 to Chicago with a starting lineup of Collison, Rush/Dunleavy/George, Grangers, McRoberts/Hansbrough, Hibbert. Where were they 1 year ago? 42 wins in the playoffs where they lost in the 2nd round to Orlando 4-1 with a starting lineup of Collison, George, Granger, West, Hibbert. Where were they this year? 49 wins and in the playoffs where they lost in the 3rd round/Conference Finals in game 7 with a starting lineup of Hill, Stephenson, George, West, Hibbert. If you have a plan and continue to bring in pieces that fit that plan (i.e. you continue to evolve and grow) you can still compete while building a contender.

                Do you know what I'm tired of? The inability to think abstractly. Everything is not black and white. And I'm not sure if you label me as the anti-tank crowd or not but I'm happy to blow it up but in blowing it up, is Lowry, Gay, Amir, DeRozan going to return you nearly guaranteed lottery draft picks? And if they don't are you willing to accept pennies on the dollar to ensure your own draft pick might turn in to a winner?
                I'm done repeating myself. At this point, we'll have to see how it plays out. I am confident that most of you will eventually end up in the same place as me - because quite frankly, that's usually what happens around here.

                The last thing I will say is that you are way, way off on Bogut. He averaged 6 points and 7 rebounds this year and missed 50 games with injury. He missed over 50 games the previous season before. He is not a "highly productive" centre anymore as his stats have been in decline for three seasons and counting, plus he's one of the most injury prone players in the league. There's no way he comes close to a $15 million salary again next summer and I think he'd be lucky to get $7.5 million. If he has another injury filled season next year then he may not exceed $5 million. All of the offers will likely be 2-3 years because of the injury risk.
                Last edited by Fully; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 01:44 PM.

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                • Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                  I said GOOD(4-7) not GREAT(1-3) pick. If we end up with a 1-3 pick, GREAT, Worth it IMO.
                  4-7 guarantees nothing. Many players taken in that range bomb. We've even seen in from Raptors draft picks. Why can't they build and work a trade for a pick later if they see someone they like? That keeps the control in hand. Sure, they may not be able to work the deal for the pick but at the same time they may not be able to draft the guy they want if they bomb and "win" the pick. If it was me I prefer more control, not less. My name would be on the line with every decision after all.

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                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    Why is it senseless? Are they going to increase ticket prices and make us pay for Gay's salary? If they're not doing that then keeping him around at that price makes sense for me the fan. It makes perfect sense to me; he's a really good player. The best on the team.
                    Hanging on to Gay is senseless mainly because it reduces our chances of STINKING. I guess the words 'enormous salary' confused you. Sorry. I mentioned that because big salaries are borne by teams when they compete. Usually.
                    Attitude Is A Choice.

                    Comment


                    • Fans who wish for losing deserve nothing more than losing.

                      And there is far more at play on a team with a toilet reputation in the league than getting lucky with a couple lotto picks.

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                      • Apollo wrote: View Post
                        4-7 guarantees nothing. Many players taken in that range bomb. We've even seen in from Raptors draft picks. Why can't they build and work a trade for a pick later if they see someone they like? That keeps the control in hand. Sure, they may not be able to work the deal for the pick but at the same time they may not be able to draft the guy they want if they bomb and "win" the pick. If it was me I prefer more control, not less. My name would be on the line with every decision after all.

                        Even in a normal draft 4-7 is not bad. Anyways, it's just my opinion. I shared your opinion about two months ago.
                        Attitude Is A Choice.

                        Comment


                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          Fans who wish for losing deserve nothing more than losing.

                          And there is far more at play on a team with a toilet reputation in the league than getting lucky with a couple lotto picks.
                          What do those who accept mediocrity deserve?

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                          • Fully wrote: View Post
                            What do those who accept mediocrity deserve?
                            I'm not sure, you'll have to go ask one but my guess is that follows a similar logic.

                            Just another point: If you're wishing for more losing then you're accepting mediocrity short term and if the plan bombs then you're accepting it long term.

                            Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                            Even in a normal draft 4-7 is not bad. Anyways, it's just my opinion. I shared your opinion about two months ago.
                            So you want the Raptors to dump some of their current assets to lose a bunch of games so that you can watch losing basketball for the next five years so they they obtain some not bad-to-good players in the lottery? Can they get those kinds of players without selling the farm and checking their integrity at the door? You don't shed a losing culture with more losing. I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me and I'm not buying into that.
                            Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:01 PM. Reason: .

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                            • Apollo wrote: View Post
                              Fans who wish for losing deserve nothing more than losing.
                              One can't "wish for losing" and call himself a Fan. A Fan ALWAYS wishes success.

                              Fans who wish to take a step back to take two steps forward, look at the LONG TERM. Not to say that Fans who like other philosophies are not Fans. We all love our Raptors, don't we?
                              Attitude Is A Choice.

                              Comment


                              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                                Fans who wish for losing deserve nothing more than losing.

                                And there is far more at play on a team with a toilet reputation in the league than getting lucky with a couple lotto picks.
                                That is a little harsh isn't it? Nobody wants to be in this position and want to lose, but those like myself whom consider a reubild as the best option and feel the draft is the best way to do it consider tanking is the only option. You could be the Clippers on year, hit it big on Blake Griffin and have elite players like CP3 wanting to sign an extension with you the next year, so I'm not too concerned about the perception of losing. Players like fans have a short memory and will come back in droves once we find success.

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