View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 32.43%
  • Tweaker

    25 67.57%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #541
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Yeah, but by slipping into the 8th spot, the core players will all get that ever so important playoff experience, even if only on short little doses. Kaizen. It's called continuous improvement. By the third year they should be making a series of it before their first round exits.
    I don't disagree with you, but when journalists are calling next years draft "the draft of kings," and the Raps are on the outside looking in while every other mediocre team is quietly joining the conga line making the playoffs isn't necessarily beneficial. Especially if all they do is get knocked out via sweep a la Milwaukee to the Heat.

  2. #542
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    I don't disagree with you,....
    Then you are just being polite. Sorry man, I was spoofing, completely.

  3. #543
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    I try to be polite once in a while, what can I say

  4. #544
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    I try to be polite once in a while, what can I say
    Thank you. automatically moved into the top 25% of posters!

  5. #545
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Calls for tanking courtesy of Blair at the Globe and Mail:

    DeMar DeRozan, Rudy Gay and the one useful piece left by former GM Bryan Colangelo – Jonas Valanciunas – aren’t going to grow anything for the Raptors; an eighth- or seventh-place finish and first-round playoff exit won’t grow this team past the 905 area code.

    There is precious little to attract the next generation of basketball fans inside or outside of Toronto to the Raptors.

    It is pie in the sky to dream of Toronto as being a destination for NBA free agents, especially when this generation of stars thinks nothing about taking less money to hook up with another star and go for a title. When you can’t appeal to an athlete’s greed, you’re screwed. So teams like the Raptors need to build through the draft, and for many it will seem a no-brainer Ujiri’s priority ought to be throwing away the 2013-14 season for a shot at Wiggins.
    There are other issues, too. Even finishing last doesn’t guarantee the lottery coming out in your favour – although early indications are the 2014 draft is deep enough that a club can make out just fine with the Nos. 2 or 3 pick. Trading up is a possibility, providing a team has future draft picks and young, cost-effective players.

    For the Raptors, a strategic kissing away of the 2013-14 season at least gets them in the conversation. Call it “tanking” if you want; there are those of us who see it as being the exact opposite.

    Better to aim high for Andrew Wiggins and fail, than to settle for Rudy Gay.

    Time for more Air Canada and less Err Canada. And if that sounds too cynical, you can thank Bryan Colangelo.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle12896649/
    He seems to forget #2 and #3 are lottery determined as well.

    It is also evident he doesn't follow much ball if he thinks trading up is simple.

    Finally, giving up future picks and young cost effective players is the exact opposite of tanking. It is a great way to get stuck on the treadmill with a superstar talent - just as Minnesota (Garnett) or even Cleveland (LeBron) or thinking back 5 years Toronto (Bosh) all showed.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  7. #546
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...It is also evident he doesn't follow much ball if he thinks trading up is simple...
    Nailed it. Almost everything he says indicates he doesn't follow much ball.

  8. #547
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Calls for tanking courtesy of Blair at the Globe and Mail:





    He seems to forget #2 and #3 are lottery determined as well.

    It is also evident he doesn't follow much ball if he thinks trading up is simple.

    Finally, giving up future picks and young cost effective players is the exact opposite of tanking. It is a great way to get stuck on the treadmill with a superstar talent - just as Minnesota (Garnett) or even Cleveland (LeBron) or thinking back 5 years Toronto (Bosh) all showed.
    He never said trading up is simple (atleast not in the part you quoted), just a possibility. But a team still needs the right assets to do so.

    Moving up by using future picks and cost effective players, isn't the opposite of tanking (maybe rebuilding is the better term here) atleast not if you have additional ones.

    So for the Raps, with few players on good contracts and only their own future picks in hand, trading those away to move up may not be a smart move. But it the Raptors could move Gay or Lowry or whoever for those types of assets, those assets could then be packaged while attempting to move up, while not giving up Toronto's existing future assets.

    (Hypothetical on its way) The Raps land 7th in the lottery, while a Gay trade had landed the team the 12th pick, and the number 3 or 4 team would trade that pick for 7 and 12, I think thats a quick no brainer deal. Atleast next year.

  9. #548
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    He never said trading up is simple (atleast not in the part you quoted), just a possibility. But a team still needs the right assets to do so.

    Moving up by using future picks and cost effective players, isn't the opposite of tanking (maybe rebuilding is the better term here) atleast not if you have additional ones.

    So for the Raps, with few players on good contracts and only their own future picks in hand, trading those away to move up may not be a smart move. But it the Raptors could move Gay or Lowry or whoever for those types of assets, those assets could then be packaged while attempting to move up, while not giving up Toronto's existing future assets.

    (Hypothetical on its way) The Raps land 7th in the lottery, while a Gay trade had landed the team the 12th pick, and the number 3 or 4 team would trade that pick for 7 and 12, I think thats a quick no brainer deal. Atleast next year.
    And if it is such a no brainer, why would the other team do it?

    There are all sorts of extenuating circumstances that could come in to play.... none of which make a simple situation.

    But you are right, he did not say it was simple. He said it was a possibility in a very nonchalant manner.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #549
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    And if it is such a no brainer, why would the other team do it?

    There are all sorts of extenuating circumstances that could come in to play.... none of which make a simple situation.

    But you are right, he did not say it was simple. He said it was a possibility in a very nonchalant manner.
    Because there are extenuating circumstances that come into play for the other team? Because there are bad GMs out there? It was a clearly stated hypothetical example.

    Blair's point is, putting yourself in the best position possible to obtain the talent necessary in the NBA. It has nothing to do with ease or simplicity.

  11. #550
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    ...Blair's point is, putting yourself in the best position possible to obtain the talent necessary in the NBA. It has nothing to do with ease or simplicity.
    And then he describes how to get into that position:

    "Even finishing last doesn’t guarantee the lottery coming out in your favour – although early indications are the 2014 draft is deep enough that a club can make out just fine with the Nos. 2 or 3 pick. Trading up is a possibility, providing a team has future draft picks and young, cost-effective players."

    So, tank and get the first, second or third pick in next years draft, unless you wind up with the 6th, 7th, or 8th pick because of a bad ping pong ball. And you will have traded away " future draft picks and young, cost-effective players" of which the Raptors only have JV and future draft picks.

    He is advocating tanking because tanking "at least gets them in the conversation." And what conversation is that? The one where, after two years of lousy bball, they commiserate with themselves about their bad luck in the draft and how their draft picks didn't work out?

    Very easy to advocate tanking and then wave the magic wand of maybe getting a franchise talent as the justification. A lot harder to accomplish. People can always point to one or two teams for whom a run of bad years are accompanied by getting lucky in the lottery and picking high, and then also getting lucky by having those picks turn into franchise players. But it is easy to do so in hindsight. Much harder to make that kind of a run of luck happen.

    Blair's piece looks like a throw away article anyone posting on this forum could have written:

    "The Raptors suck and are going to continue to suck unless they get better. They only have one good player. Free agents won't come here even if you give them a lot of money. The Raptors should just tank, and then get a high lottery pick. And if they don't get a high lottery pick through tanking, just trade up and get one. They just have to trade away young cost effective players and future picks to trade up. And if getting a high lottery pick doesn't work out, so what...at least they tried."

    Summarized. Effectively nothing there.

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  13. #551
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    And then he describes how to get into that position:

    "Even finishing last doesn’t guarantee the lottery coming out in your favour – although early indications are the 2014 draft is deep enough that a club can make out just fine with the Nos. 2 or 3 pick. Trading up is a possibility, providing a team has future draft picks and young, cost-effective players."

    So, tank and get the first, second or third pick in next years draft, unless you wind up with the 6th, 7th, or 8th pick because of a bad ping pong ball. And you will have traded away " future draft picks and young, cost-effective players" of which the Raptors only have JV and future draft picks.


    He is advocating tanking because tanking "at least gets them in the conversation." And what conversation is that? The one where, after two years of lousy bball, they commiserate with themselves about their bad luck in the draft and how their draft picks didn't work out?

    Very easy to advocate tanking and then wave the magic wand of maybe getting a franchise talent as the justification. A lot harder to accomplish. People can always point to one or two teams for whom a run of bad years are accompanied by getting lucky in the lottery and picking high, and then also getting lucky by having those picks turn into franchise players. But it is easy to do so in hindsight. Much harder to make that kind of a run of luck happen.

    Blair's piece looks like a throw away article anyone posting on this forum could have written:

    "The Raptors suck and are going to continue to suck unless they get better. They only have one good player. Free agents won't come here even if you give them a lot of money. The Raptors should just tank, and then get a high lottery pick. And if they don't get a high lottery pick through tanking, just trade up and get one. They just have to trade away young cost effective players and future picks to trade up. And if getting a high lottery pick doesn't work out, so what...at least they tried."

    Summarized. Effectively nothing there.
    So you think this team can just keep what they have and build a contender? Do you really think its that easy? Your basically saying the Raptors are guaranteed to win it all, and if they don't its no big deal.

    Seriously?
    Last edited by Craiger; Sat Jun 29th, 2013 at 10:23 AM.

  14. #552
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Because there are extenuating circumstances that come into play for the other team? Because there are bad GMs out there? It was a clearly stated hypothetical example.

    Blair's point is, putting yourself in the best position possible to obtain the talent necessary in the NBA. It has nothing to do with ease or simplicity.
    It was clearly advocating tanking only highlighting the simple aspects, benefits, and rewards while ignoring the complexities, drawbacks, and risks.

    I get what Blair's point is. My point, in response to his, is tanking to get a high pick and then sending out other valuable pieces plus your own pick JUST TO MOVE UP is counterproductive. It is that type of mentality that ignited the team up with your buddies movement to win.

    Exactly how do you intend to build a contender - even with a franchise talent - if you have sent out future draft picks and young, productive assets? To make this more specific to the Raptors, how do you do this when your current assets are overpaid, injured, flawed, or a combination of all three while you have no financial flexibility to perform financially motivated trades?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #553
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    So you think this team can just keep what they have and build a contender? Do you really think its that easy? Your basically saying the Raptors are guaranteed to win it all, and if they don't its no big deal.

    Seriously?
    No such thing. I am disagreeing with the premise that the only way to build a contender is to blow it all up in a massive suckathon to get Wiggins. I am saying that I think that the Raptors can start from here and work their way into the playoffs next season and can continue making it into the playoffs for years after that.

    All star players come along at different positions in the draft. The Raptors have managed to have Carter, McGrady and Bosh, who came from the 4, 9 and 4 picks. Two of those players were near franchise talent.

    I believe it makes more sense to trade up to those positions in any given draft than to count on getting higher positions in the lottery through tanking. A good management team should be able to achieve financial flexibility, cap space, and acquire resources that allow trading up. A great scouting team should be able to identify future picks with potential. Both of those strategies do not require blowing anything up and also allow the team to strive for respectability in the near term.

    I think that this is what Masai intends to do. Look for advantageous trades. Work to see the team improve incrementally. Look for players whose value has dropped or who have been overlooked and them sign them to provide depth and trade chips in the future. 2014 is not the only year which will include all star players. I don't think the Raptors need to put all their money on 2014.

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  17. #554
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    No such thing. I am disagreeing with the premise that the only way to build a contender is to blow it all up in a massive suckathon to get Wiggins. I am saying that I think that the Raptors can start from here and work their way into the playoffs next season and can continue making it into the playoffs for years after that.

    All star players come along at different positions in the draft. The Raptors have managed to have Carter, McGrady and Bosh, who came from the 4, 9 and 4 picks. Two of those players were near franchise talent.

    I believe it makes more sense to trade up to those positions in any given draft than to count on getting higher positions in the lottery through tanking. A good management team should be able to achieve financial flexibility, cap space, and acquire resources that allow trading up. A great scouting team should be able to identify future picks with potential. Both of those strategies do not require blowing anything up and also allow the team to strive for respectability in the near term.

    I think that this is what Masai intends to do. Look for advantageous trades. Work to see the team improve incrementally. Look for players whose value has dropped or who have been overlooked and them sign them to provide depth and trade chips in the future. 2014 is not the only year which will include all star players. I don't think the Raptors need to put all their money on 2014.
    There is a very good argument for that.

    Good players come at all points in the draft.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #555
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    No such thing. I am disagreeing with the premise that the only way to build a contender is to blow it all up in a massive suckathon to get Wiggins. I am saying that I think that the Raptors can start from here and work their way into the playoffs next season and can continue making it into the playoffs for years after that.

    All star players come along at different positions in the draft. The Raptors have managed to have Carter, McGrady and Bosh, who came from the 4, 9 and 4 picks. Two of those players were near franchise talent.

    I believe it makes more sense to trade up to those positions in any given draft than to count on getting higher positions in the lottery through tanking. A good management team should be able to achieve financial flexibility, cap space, and acquire resources that allow trading up. A great scouting team should be able to identify future picks with potential. Both of those strategies do not require blowing anything up and also allow the team to strive for respectability in the near term.

    I think that this is what Masai intends to do. Look for advantageous trades. Work to see the team improve incrementally. Look for players whose value has dropped or who have been overlooked and them sign them to provide depth and trade chips in the future. 2014 is not the only year which will include all star players. I don't think the Raptors need to put all their money on 2014.

    How do you trade up to those positions in the draft? What are these advantageous trades? Where does this team improve incrementally? Who are the players whose value will drop and are overlooked?

    What your saying is a bunch of unforeseeable events can take place if management is good, we just don't know what they are or will be. But somehow its tanking that is 'waving a wand', 'lucky', 'unpredictable', 'easy' or whatever term one wants to use.


    To re-word one of your quotes below:


    Its very easy to advocate not tanking and then claim because 'a bunch of other stuff can happen' as justification. Alot harder to accomplish.
    The debate isn't whats guaranteed, whats lucky, what will or won't happen. Its whats the best opportunity to success. Feel free to disagree, but don't turn the argument into something its not. That was the point in my response.

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  20. #556
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    How do you trade up to those positions in the draft? What are these advantageous trades? Where does this team improve incrementally? Who are the players whose value will drop and are overlooked?

    What your saying is a bunch of unforeseeable events can take place if management is good, we just don't know what they are or will be. But somehow its tanking that is 'waving a wand', 'lucky', 'unpredictable', 'easy' or whatever term one wants to use.


    To re-word one of your quotes below:




    The debate isn't whats guaranteed, whats lucky, what will or won't happen. Its whats the best opportunity to success. Feel free to disagree, but don't turn the argument into something its not. That was the point in my response.
    I disagree with you Craiger, Puffer nailed it. There's already a race to the bottom and the Raptors are miles behind the Celtics, etc. Might as well become a mediocre playoff team, turn players like Demar, T-Ross, etc into nationally known playoff tested assets, and then trade one to get a higher draft pick.

    Just this week we witnessed the top 2 ranked players in the draft go around the 7th pick. You never know what happens during the NCAA season, so why join a race that you can't win? Try to win, create assets and then with a real scouting staff trade for a talent.

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  22. #557
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    I think tanking is a terrible idea.

    When the rest of the league zigs, we gotta zag.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  24. #558
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    ...The debate isn't whats guaranteed, whats lucky, what will or won't happen. Its whats the best opportunity to success. Feel free to disagree, but don't turn the argument into something its not. That was the point in my response.

    We can agree to disagree. I think that tanking puts your fate in the hands of chance...you might call it taking a calculated risk. Taking the other route, where you work hard to improve your assets, try to manage smart, get through the next couple of years trying to win and shedding the bad contracts and drafting smart so you DO have assets when it is time to make a push just seems like you are taking more control of your future. Of course it isn't guaranteed either, but I think the basketball will be more enjoyable to watch.

    I am getting tired of turning off the TV set in disgust, though I have had more fun the last couple of years than the two before them.

  25. #559
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    We can agree to disagree. I think that tanking puts your fate in the hands of chance...you might call it taking a calculated risk. Taking the other route, where you work hard to improve your assets, try to manage smart, get through the next couple of years trying to win and shedding the bad contracts and drafting smart so you DO have assets when it is time to make a push just seems like you are taking more control of your future.
    Of course, what you're forgetting is that everything in sports management is calculated risk. DeMar could never find his shot, Rudy's eye problem could get worse, JoVal could break his leg at the start of the season and be out of basketball forever.

    Tanking is a relatively knowable risk in that you have a good idea of what you're tanking for: a prized rookie contract (or more than one) that has intrinsic value around the league and where you have a reasonably good, albeit imperfect, idea of what the player's level is. It's frankly a lot more certain than assuming inherent player improvement, which is what the anti-tank faction seems to be asserting will happen.

  26. #560
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Of course, what you're forgetting is that everything in sports management is calculated risk. ...Tanking is a relatively knowable risk in that you have a good idea of what you're tanking for: a prized rookie contract (or more than one) that has intrinsic value around the league and where you have a reasonably good, albeit imperfect, idea of what the player's level is. It's frankly a lot more certain than assuming inherent player improvement, which is what the anti-tank faction seems to be asserting will happen.
    We can agree to disagree about this. Raptors after all have had a #1 pick. Go through the number one picks of the last 15 years and count the flameouts, not to mention the players who never became franchise players. Then count the number of guys picked in the top 5. How many of them turned into franchise talents? Now how many all stars came from picks #8 and lower?

    A lot of top five picks paid off for their teams. But the Raps have had two #4 picks that paid off for a while then left the franchise in worse shape then before. So much for knowable risk. But if I am working with a guy every day, and that guy is putting in the work, I know that guy is going to get better. And if he is unwilling to work, I'm trading his ass and finding someone who is willing to buy in and commit.

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