View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 31.58%
  • Tweaker

    26 68.42%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #581
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    So, we tank. Get the first overall pick. Draft Wiggins. He lives up to what he's supposed to. Than What?

    If you haven't planned past these above steps.. Allow me to show you what happens...

    Lebron James happens.

    And by that I mean you can't surround him with good players and he leaves.

    Or wait..here's an example, that resonates closer to home. Chris Bosh happens.
    We have JV growing (a potential star)..we have Tross (jury's out)..we will have tons of cap room. Cavs got lebron when they were bottomed out...and they went to the finals. I think we'd be ok with that. The difference is we've already got a few top ten picks growing. Clevelands picks in the year before lebron were Jamal Crawford at 7(2000...not bad), DeSagana Diop (8th 2001) and Dajuan Wagner (6th 2002). Hopefully we've got more of a foundation.

  2. #582
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    So, we tank. Get the first overall pick. Draft Wiggins. He lives up to what he's supposed to. Than What?

    If you haven't planned past these above steps.. Allow me to show you what happens...

    Lebron James happens.

    And by that I mean you can't surround him with good players and he leaves.

    Or wait..here's an example, that resonates closer to home. Chris Bosh happens.
    So you don't think the Raptors front office will make good choices in trades, drafting and free agency over the next 5 years? If that's the case, we've got problems no matter what direction they decide to go.

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  4. #583
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    So you don't think the Raptors front office will make good choices in trades, drafting and free agency over the next 5 years? If that's the case, we've got problems no matter what direction they decide to go.
    None of you have ever discussed any of what you just brought up.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  5. #584
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    How are they bad examples for what I'm trying to prove?
    The only thing you can proved is toronto and cleveland had bad maNagement.

    Toronto has new management and shouldn't be tarred with same brush.

    San Antonio, clippers, OKC all come to mind of teams who did turn it around with #1 pick.

  6. #585
    Raptors Republic Starter Sam17's Avatar
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    lol OKC doesn't count, they were just lucky. But anyway I'm against tanking too We've known this team long enough to understand that something will go terribly wrong if we tank just cause we're the Raptors

  7. #586
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Sam17 wrote: View Post
    lol OKC doesn't count, they were just lucky. But anyway I'm against tanking too We've known this team long enough to understand that something will go terribly wrong if we tank just cause we're the Raptors
    If he can site Bosh as an example (drafted 4th), then you can site KD (drafted 2nd) as well.

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  9. #587
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The only thing you can proved is toronto and cleveland had bad maNagement.

    Toronto has new management and shouldn't be tarred with same brush.

    San Antonio, clippers, OKC all come to mind of teams who did turn it around with #1 pick.
    OKC has not had a #1 pick. And took a long time and various trades and signings.

    San Antonio is San Antonio. They're one of a kind.

    The Clippers were shit for how long while continuing to get high draft picks?
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  10. #588
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    None of you have ever discussed any of what you just brought up.
    Brought up what? If the Raptors landed Wiggins next summer but screwed up the team around him so bad that he left in 7 years or whatever? No, I haven't spent much time posting about a completely hypothetical situation for the summer of 2020.
    Last edited by Fully; Sat Jul 6th, 2013 at 06:39 PM.

  11. #589
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    we already have jv so he aint doin it alone..

  12. #590
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    If a franchise is committed to tanking, it had better be damn good at it with all the teams lining up their ducks to lose next season. I do not see any evidence as yet that the Raptors are headed in that direction (fingers crossed). Houston should be the model for franchises looking to go in the other direction, building by astute deal making and cap space management.

  13. #591
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    How are they bad examples for what I'm trying to prove?
    because you're not 'proving' anything. you're just naming bad situations that aren't even arguments.

    you're basically just saying we shouldn't get ANY good player because they'll just leave.

    you might as well just say something as dumb as "drafting #1 is a bad idea. look how our last #1 pick turned out."
    Last edited by iblastoff; Sat Jul 6th, 2013 at 07:08 PM.

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  15. #592
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    OKC has not had a #1 pick. And took a long time and various trades and signings.

    San Antonio is San Antonio. They're one of a kind.

    The Clippers were shit for how long while continuing to get high draft picks?
    You're right on OKC.

    Doesn't change shit though considering you used Bosh (#4) as an example and you still have not proved anything.

    It doesn't matter what direction a team takes with shitty management leading the way.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  16. #593
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    If there ever was a time to tank it is right now to be honest.

    The Raps have the hardest position to secure locked up for 7 or 8 years. JV's floor is a starting C. His ceiling is pretty damn good.

    They have teams who have sucked for years and have valuable assets forcing to become playoff teams. On the flip side, the Raptors have assets who would likely appeal (Gay, Lowry).

    There is a really good draft class coming.

    There are no significant financial commitments after 2 seasons minus DeRozan.


    Looking at how the East is shaping up, if the Raps could get proven NBA talent still on rookie deal combined with more picks and financial flexibility, I would be all over tanking (although in this case I"d call it rebuilding because valuable assets have to come back to ensure you are not leaving yourself 100% susceptible to the bouncing balls).
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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  18. #594
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    Hi guys, new to the forums but I've been reading for a while.

    I don't understand some posters here who are satisfied with mediocrity. Clearly the team that Colangelo built was not done so in a fashion that is going to invite success. The only way to do it is blow it up and go through the draft.

    Free agents don't flock to Toronto, even though its the 4th biggest market(I think) in North America. Getting guys on rookie deals is more realistic. That guarantees a three year term to show improvement and grow together. It also gives the ownership and management the upperhand in resigning these guys to longer-term deals. It takes time and patience but clearly trying to retool by making desperation trades hasnt been succesful for the Raps

  19. #595
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    *BUMP*

    Ahhhh, the original thread that ignited numerous threads centering around the Great Raptor Debate of 2013.... to tear it down or not to tear it down, that is the question.


    I think I've moved to the tear it down side with the assumption that every trade is returning valuable assets rather than just clearing cap space. In any trade, you need proven NBA talent and picks (at this point in time I would consider any player picked in 2013 a pick since they have yet to play an NBA minute).

    Too many weaker teams making improvements that are passing the Raptors (Washington) or making it too close to call (Cleveland, Detroit) and too many stronger teams still strong (Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Brooklyn, New York) or weaker but still likely just as good if not better (Milwaukee, Atlanta).




    Looking at Rudy Gay, I'd call up these three teams and offer:

    Detroit - Monroe, Knight, 1st available pick, Stuckey, Charlie V

    Cleveland - Thompson, CJ Miles, rights to Karasev, 2014 pick

    Charlotte - rights to Zeller, Gordon, 2014 Pistons pick (top 8 protected), Portland pick (top 12 protected), right to swap own Raptor pick with theirs

    Of the 3 I like Cleveland best, then Charlotte, then Detroit.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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  21. #596
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    So, we tank. Get the first overall pick. Draft Wiggins. He lives up to what he's supposed to. Than What?

    If you haven't planned past these above steps.. Allow me to show you what happens...

    Lebron James happens.

    And by that I mean you can't surround him with good players and he leaves.

    Or wait..here's an example, that resonates closer to home. Chris Bosh happens.
    Posts like this really make we wonder about Raps fans. In what world would we not plan past a draft pick from this years draft? I dont know anyone who is in the so called tanking camp that thinks we should get rid of JV. I happen to think TR is a nice piece going forward also. Maybe even DD.

    The thought that somehow tanking means you throw out all logic into building a team and just throw all of your eggs in one basket into one draft pick is completely ridiculous. It simply suggests that a high draft pick from this years draft is a better building block going forward than LF, RG, AB etc

    The whole concept of tanking is to build around young talent. That could be talent currently on the team (JV, TR for example) or it could be talent acquired in a trade (Bledsoe would have been an example if we did the DD deal). The only fundamental different between "tanking" and whatever the hell the raps have been doing is that you make a conscious choice to either trade away or not play players who might help you win this year and instead focus on players who will help us in the future.

    A perfect example from last year would be playing TR ahead of AA. Giving AA minutes over TR might (this is debateble, but Casey thinks so) help you win 3-4 games in this year. BUT, AA will never be part of the future. If you are "tanking" you sit AA's ass and play TR. I think thats smart.

    Similar concept if you were to trade an asset for a pick. Think Houston last year. They trade Lowry for our pick. That clearly makes them worse .. but makes them better long term (and as it turns out long term came quickly as they turned the pick and other assets in Harden.

    Tanking is a very logical, planned out thing. Thats why half the league is doing it. Its not some baseless "lose at all costs and dont consider the consequences" .. I agree, that would be dumb

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  23. #597
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Giddyup Cavs.

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  25. #598
    Raptors Republic Superstar lilmamba_'s Avatar
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    i love the Cleveland idea<3
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
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  26. #599
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    I sense a thread coming up titled "The case for trading Rudy Gay".

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  28. #600
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I sense a thread coming up titled "The case for trading Rudy Gay".
    Sadly the prequel was based on an incredibly unrealistic storyline that never came to pass.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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