View Poll Results: What word best describes your preference moving forward for the Raptors?

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  • Tanker

    12 32.43%
  • Tweaker

    25 67.57%
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Thread: Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

  1. #721
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Personally, I'm a fan of how Clevland re-built their team post LBJ, through the draft (doesn't hurt that they hit the jackpot twice in 3 years). I'm just not a fan of their drafting. I think they could have made better choices where they selected, but never the less the method was sound imo.

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  3. #722
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Personally, I'm a fan of how Clevland re-built their team post LBJ, through the draft (doesn't hurt that they hit the jackpot twice in 3 years). I'm just not a fan of their drafting. I think they could have made better choices where they selected, but never the less the method was sound imo.
    The Cavs are using the OKC model of trying to get studs with high picks. It's pale in comparison to what Presti got in return but it was still smart. The only question now is can he build properly around Irving so that he doesn't flee the first chance he gets. Getting Bynum is a very risky move but if it works they will be a hard team to beat.

  4. #723
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Personally, I'm a fan of how Clevland re-built their team post LBJ, through the draft (doesn't hurt that they hit the jackpot twice in 3 years). I'm just not a fan of their drafting. I think they could have made better choices where they selected, but never the less the method was sound imo.
    Yet another concern with all-out tanking. Even when you successfully tank and get lucky in the draft lottery, there's still no guarantee any/all your top draft picks are going to work out. I do agree that some of their picks were just terrible though, but it still goes to show what a crap-shoot drafting can be.

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  6. #724
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Yet another concern with all-out tanking. Even when you successfully tank and get lucky in the draft lottery, there's still no guarantee any/all your top draft picks are going to work out. I do agree that some of their picks were just terrible though, but it still goes to show what a crap-shoot drafting can be.
    Corect me if im wrong here.

    Next season, isnt Kyrie due for a max extension? And if they do get Lebron, he'd probably get somewhere between 20-25 maybe even 30 (kobe) per season. When the time comes, how will they be able to re-sign Thompson, Waiters and Bennett?

    So eventually, they wouldve drafted all 3 for nothing?

  7. #725
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Corect me if im wrong here.

    Next season, isnt Kyrie due for a max extension? And if they do get Lebron, he'd probably get somewhere between 20-25 maybe even 30 (kobe) per season. When the time comes, how will they be able to re-sign Thompson, Waiters and Bennett?

    So eventually, they wouldve drafted all 3 for nothing?
    I suppose it depends whether or not Cleveland ownership is willing to go into the tax. If LBJ comes back, I think you worry about all those details later and don't give a second thought to throwing your rebuild out the window... it's LBJ!

    The only players with guaranteed contracts for the 2014-15 season are:
    - Jack ($6.1M)
    - rookies who haven't signed yet (Bennett, Karasev)

    Every other player on Cleveland's roster is either a non-guaranteed contract (Varejao, Clark & Gee), team option (Irving, Bynum, Thompsom, Waiters & Zeller) or qualifying offer (Jones).

    Irving & Thompson have qualifying offers for the 2015-16 season. Waiters & Zeller have qualifying offers for the 2016-17 season. Needless to say, they have loads of flexibility and ample time to cash in their young assets if need be.

  8. #726
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Corect me if im wrong here.

    Next season, isnt Kyrie due for a max extension? And if they do get Lebron, he'd probably get somewhere between 20-25 maybe even 30 (kobe) per season. When the time comes, how will they be able to re-sign Thompson, Waiters and Bennett?

    So eventually, they wouldve drafted all 3 for nothing?
    Just a comment on LBJ commanding 30 mil. ala Kobe. Not possible as per cba rules. Kobe has achieved that lofty status by being a max player for sometime now, under at least 1-2 previous more player friendly cba/s and due to mandatory yearly percentage increases on his salary.

  9. #727
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Just a comment on LBJ commanding 30 mil. ala Kobe. Not possible as per cba rules. Kobe has achieved that lofty status by being a max player for sometime now, under at least 1-2 previous cba/s and due to mandatory yearly percentage increases on his salary.
    Thank you. What will his max be?

  10. #728
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Corect me if im wrong here.

    Next season, isnt Kyrie due for a max extension? And if they do get Lebron, he'd probably get somewhere between 20-25 maybe even 30 (kobe) per season. When the time comes, how will they be able to re-sign Thompson, Waiters and Bennett?

    So eventually, they wouldve drafted all 3 for nothing?
    A few corrections:

    Irving won't be eligible for his extension until the summer of 2015. They can even do a qualifying offer the following year if they wish, but I'm sure they'll lock him up long term the first opportunity they get. He will get the same $58million /4 year deal that guys like Hibbert, Lopez and Eric Gordon have signed recently.

    Lebron won't make $30 million. Kobe's deal was under a prior CB. LBJ will be somewhere around the $20 million mark, similar to what Chris Paul just got as his "max" deal.

    Thompson and Waiters are not projected to be max contract type players. Bennett it is way too early to call obviously. Regardless, it will be another 3-4 years before they are due for their first big pay bump; Now is not the time to start panicking about signing them all, especially when we have no idea what their value will be then. Plus there's always the option that Cleveland goes into the luxury tax to keep most or all of them if they are close to being a championship contender when they're due for a re-up.

    They also have the choice to trade one of them before their extension, similar to what OKC did with Harden. You may not get equal value in that scenario, but you do get assets back. The idea that they drafted three guys in the top five for "nothing" is pretty far fetched.

  11. #729
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Thank you. What will his max be?
    Cant be absolutely sure because # of years of service might come into play or a s&t....but Howard just choosing to go to Houston maxed out at 22 per for 4 yrs.

  12. #730
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Yet another concern with all-out tanking. Even when you successfully tank and get lucky in the draft lottery, there's still no guarantee any/all your top draft picks are going to work out. I do agree that some of their picks were just terrible though, but it still goes to show what a crap-shoot drafting can be.
    Yeah, but that's like saying Portland should never have drafted Oden. Drafting him was the right thing to do. The fact that it didn't work out was bad luck.

    If you can put yourself in the best position to succeed and you don't succeed, then it's not anyones fault. You've done the correct thing imo.

  13. #731
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Corect me if im wrong here.

    Next season, isnt Kyrie due for a max extension? And if they do get Lebron, he'd probably get somewhere between 20-25 maybe even 30 (kobe) per season. When the time comes, how will they be able to re-sign Thompson, Waiters and Bennett?

    So eventually, they wouldve drafted all 3 for nothing?
    If you can get LeBron and Kyrie then why would it matter if you could sign those 3 guys? If any of them turn into elite players by the time they need to be resigned then you go into the luxury tax if need be but keep in mind it's unlikely any of them will command max dollars, and if not then you can trade them for peices that fit better around LBJ and Kyrie.

    If Miami's success and what Houston has done recently and what San Antonio has been doing for years shows me anything it's that you should do whatever it takes to get elite talent on your team and then worry about the peices around them after that.

  14. #732
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Corect me if im wrong here.

    Next season, isnt Kyrie due for a max extension? And if they do get Lebron, he'd probably get somewhere between 20-25 maybe even 30 (kobe) per season. When the time comes, how will they be able to re-sign Thompson, Waiters and Bennett?

    So eventually, they wouldve drafted all 3 for nothing?
    When you draft players like Irving and Thompson, it can NEVER be for nothing. In the event that Lebron decides to return, there are a number of things they can do to strengthen the team(present, future or both). If Irving is made available, the return would be AMAZING.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  15. #733
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    I don't think they Cavs ever made it their strategy to build through the draft. It just worked out that way because their teams have been terrible.

  16. #734
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I don't think they Cavs ever made it their strategy to build through the draft. It just worked out that way because their teams have been terrible.
    Sure they did, starting with the trade for Baron Davis, which was all about getting a 1st round pick. LAC's pick wound up netting Cleveland Kyrie Irving.

    LINK: http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/...gives_fan.html

    From the moment LBJ left, Cleveland targeted the draft as their primary means of rebuilding and they've stuck to the 'slow and steady' method. Unlike BC, who kinda sorta used the draft, while jumping at quick-fix band-aid solutions, in at least a partial attempt to save his job.

    The lucky bonus in that deal was that they wound up being able to amnesty Davis after the new CBA was signed. Talk about a win-win situation!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jul 11th, 2013 at 01:09 PM.

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  18. #735
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Thank you. What will his max be?
    Lebron has come out and said he doesn't care about being a max. paid player..he has prooof to back his claim as well..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

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  19. #736
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I just feel like LeBron has no real incentive to return to Cleveland. I think if he ever does, it might be to buy the team.

  20. #737
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Sure they did, starting with the trade for Baron Davis, which was all about getting a 1st round pick. LAC's pick wound up netting Cleveland Kyrie Irving.

    LINK: http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/...gives_fan.html

    From the moment LBJ left, Cleveland targeted the draft as their primary means of rebuilding and they've stuck to the 'slow and steady' method. Unlike BC, who kinda sorta used the draft, while jumping at quick-fix band-aid solutions, in at least a partial attempt to save his job.

    The lucky bonus in that deal was that they wound up being able to amnesty Davis after the new CBA was signed. Talk about a win-win situation!
    I'm not trying to defend BC, but that's a distorted picture. After Bosh left (same time as LBJ), they drafted Davis (having drafted DD the previous year), unloaded Hedon't, made no desperate trades/FA signings for next couple of years while drafting JV, then Ross. Only last summer did he try and ramp up outside the draft. The Nash attempt was silly, but the Lowry trade a good one. In getting Rudy, he preceded the Cavs attempts to make a leap by a few months. Yeah he jumped into the fray a little sooner, but did the same as Cleveland for a couple of years.

  21. #738
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Around #200 or so in this thread we were talking about Cleveland being in a better position than Toronto. They had done a proper rebuild by acquiring draft picks, tons of young players, and all the while maintaining strong cap flexibility.

    Many people thought eww eww Cleveland is just as bad as we are and could be years away from being competitive.

    Well, fast forward just 2 months later and we're witnessing the fruits of that flexibility. Earl Clark, Jarrett Jack, and now Andrew Bynum, to say nothing of 4 players in the draft. I'm not going to pass judgment on whether or not I agree with the moves specifically (personally not a huge fan of any of those players) but look what they've been able to do in the past few weeks makes me wish Toronto will get there one day as well, in terms of the flexibility.

    I think Masai is working towards it but there's just too much bloat leftover from Colangelo's reign of terror. Hopefully, we'll get there soon.
    To me that roster looks like a shit cake. Honestly Chris Grant has no idea what he's doing. Cleveland's roster is ok in terms of talent but none of the pieces fit lol

    Its just a mish mash of random ass players that had good seasons (except for Bynum of course) in the systems they played in. They have 3 ball dominant guards now, no legit Sf, and 2 injury prone bigmen. The only bright side is Kyrie and Tristan Thompson, possibly Bennett as well (i seriously don't know where he fits into the equation).
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  22. #739
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    To me that roster looks like a shit cake. Honestly Chris Grant has no idea what he's doing. Cleveland's roster is ok in terms of talent but none of the pieces fit lol

    Its just a mish mash of random ass players that had good seasons (except for Bynum of course) in the systems they played in. They have 3 ball dominant guards now, no legit Sf, and 2 injury prone bigmen. The only bright side is Kyrie and Tristan Thompson, possibly Bennett as well (i seriously don't know where he fits into the equation).
    There is a backlog at PF.

    It will be interesting to see how he fixes it.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #740
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I suppose it depends whether or not Cleveland ownership is willing to go into the tax. If LBJ comes back, I think you worry about all those details later and don't give a second thought to throwing your rebuild out the window... it's LBJ!

    The only players with guaranteed contracts for the 2014-15 season are:
    - Jack ($6.1M)
    - rookies who haven't signed yet (Bennett, Karasev)

    Every other player on Cleveland's roster is either a non-guaranteed contract (Varejao, Clark & Gee), team option (Irving, Bynum, Thompsom, Waiters & Zeller) or qualifying offer (Jones).

    Irving & Thompson have qualifying offers for the 2015-16 season. Waiters & Zeller have qualifying offers for the 2016-17 season. Needless to say, they have loads of flexibility and ample time to cash in their young assets if need be.
    Absolutely. Again, I'm not advocating this is great team by any means, or even good, but the flexibility is an absolute dream, and they've got a boatload of still very movable assets which means if things don't work out they still can't still wheel and deal.

    It's a gorgeous situation. That Bynum contract was the icing on the cake for me, what a beautiful contract with almost no risk involved.. only $6M guaranteed out of $24M! If he stays healthy (a huge if), he's going to be a 20/10/2 guy, and if not, see ya later! It's almost like Grant took a page out of the NFL rulebook with that contract with so little of it guaranteed.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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