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Thread: Chisholm: Ujiri the anti-Colangelo?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Chisholm: Ujiri the anti-Colangelo?

    **I am sure this will be merged but thought it could go on its own for a couple of days first**

    Tim Chisholm is no longer writing for TSN.ca and now has his own blog: threeinthekey.ca. Tim always has insightful and well thought articles, make sure you make it a part of your Raptor reading.

    Now the Raptors just have to sit tight while Ujiri mulls their offer. He may still choose to leave significant dollars on the table to finish the job that he started in Denver, as unlikely as that seems today, but if he does opt to return to Canada then Raptors fans can expect to see a very different set of priorities guiding their team beginning this summer. If Tim Leiweke wanted a fresh perspective in the front office, itís somewhat ironic that he found it in a Colangelo disciple, but youíd be hard-pressed to find another executive who has operated so counter to Colangeloís style over the last three years, which basically makes him an ideal fit to inherit the manís chair if he ultimately decides that he wants it.

    http://threeinthekey.ca/what-is-it-about-ujiri-2/
    This article is worth the click.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...This article is worth the click.
    Amen to that. A very nice summary of the difference between BC and Ujiri. Makes me want to see him as Raptor GM even more.

    The blog post mentions his lack of fascination with "name" players as being important to his success. He can be dispassionate about his own players and trade them without losing sleep if it makes the team better. I wonder if that implies he can dispassionately compare the salary he is being offered by the Nuggets and the one Toronto is offering :-)

    Hope so.

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    It feels like in the new age of sports, player and management loyalty is no longer relevant. Chivalry is dead.

    Good.

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    One of the main differences between the two is the return on the trade of their star player. In this, Chisholm acknowledges but downplays the differences. Not only did Bosh continue to play coy with Raptors' fans and management about his intentions, he only had one target destination - Miami. If Colangelo had the flexibility to look at more than one destination for trading Bosh, he too could have ratcheted up the value of the trade. Instead, Bosh left him with no alternative but to get whatever he could. Since other teams would have had little interest in trading for Bosh only to lose him to Miami, there was no trade value. This was all orchestrated by Bosh and the Heat. If Colangelo had been at liberty to get market value for Bosh, the Raptors franchise would be in a much better position (as would the Cavs, who got very little for trading this generation's best player). In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    One similarity between Ujiri and Colangelo was the handling of their restricted free agents. Gallinari is a better player then DeMar (in my opinion) but he offered him an extension prior to the end of his 4th year. I believe it was in January while DeMar got his extension in September. When Gallinari got that extension I thought it was an overpayment (and still do). I don't know if he would have gotten as much from the market (unless if he was scared of Bryan throwing a massive amount of money at him).

    But other then that, the way they've been going about building their teams has been different. Still not sure about Ujiri but any new GM will be an upgrade over Colangelo.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    . In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.
    Yeah, Colangelo was the poster boy for the league in terms of getting burned by an All-star which the team is built around. Had it been someone else, and a year earlier, perhaps Colangelo would not have got nailed like that. Hard to say.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.
    2 things:

    1) Melo was on record as saying, "I'm not Chris Bosh." i.e. he was not going to leave his team high and dry without warning.

    2) Melo could not get absolute max money without a sign and trade - which is what he wanted. Donnie Walsh told Dolan at the time to wait but Dolan wanted it done yesterday. Masai was lucky that Dolan was impatient.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.
    Please explain this article, then (from January, 2011). http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ory?id=6005596

    Quoting...

    A busy weekend of roller-coaster activity on the Carmelo Anthony trade front has ushered the New Jersey Nets to the brink of a deal for the superstar forward for the second time, according to sources close to the negotiations.

    Thanks to the recruitment of the Detroit Pistons as a third-party facilitator, New Jersey's long-standing attempts to pry Anthony away from Denver are "further along" than any trade scenario that has been discussed since the Nets' near acquisition of the All-Star in late September, sources close to the negotiations said Sunday.

    and....
    As of late Sunday night, sources said, New Jersey believed it was poised to receive Anthony, Billups and Hamilton, with Denver landing two future first-round picks and six players. The Nuggets' haul would feature Nets rookie Derrick Favors, former All-Star guard Devin Harris and Nets sharpshooter Anthony Morrow.
    Do you still contend that Ujiri had no leverage with the Knicks? He was reportedly being offered two first round picks plus Favors and Harris by the Nets.

    Colangelo could have dealt Bosh, but who would have traded for him without commitment that he would re-sign with them? Clearly, he was focused on the Heat, and would therefore not be willing to commit to any other team.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    Please explain this article, then (from January, 2011). http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ory?id=6005596

    Quoting...



    Do you still contend that Ujiri had no leverage with the Knicks? He was reportedly being offered two first round picks plus Favors and Harris by the Nets.

    Colangelo could have dealt Bosh, but who would have traded for him without commitment that he would re-sign with them? Clearly, he was focused on the Heat, and would therefore not be willing to commit to any other team.
    Riiiiiight

    I forgot about New Jersey.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    One of the main differences between the two is the return on the trade of their star player. In this, Chisholm acknowledges but downplays the differences. Not only did Bosh continue to play coy with Raptors' fans and management about his intentions, he only had one target destination - Miami. If Colangelo had the flexibility to look at more than one destination for trading Bosh, he too could have ratcheted up the value of the trade. Instead, Bosh left him with no alternative but to get whatever he could. Since other teams would have had little interest in trading for Bosh only to lose him to Miami, there was no trade value. This was all orchestrated by Bosh and the Heat. If Colangelo had been at liberty to get market value for Bosh, the Raptors franchise would be in a much better position (as would the Cavs, who got very little for trading this generation's best player). In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.
    My biggest complaint over the Bosh situation is that in the offseason prior to his Final year with Raps BC should have either got extension signed or traded him.

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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    One of the main differences between the two is the return on the trade of their star player. In this, Chisholm acknowledges but downplays the differences. Not only did Bosh continue to play coy with Raptors' fans and management about his intentions, he only had one target destination - Miami. If Colangelo had the flexibility to look at more than one destination for trading Bosh, he too could have ratcheted up the value of the trade. Instead, Bosh left him with no alternative but to get whatever he could. Since other teams would have had little interest in trading for Bosh only to lose him to Miami, there was no trade value. This was all orchestrated by Bosh and the Heat. If Colangelo had been at liberty to get market value for Bosh, the Raptors franchise would be in a much better position (as would the Cavs, who got very little for trading this generation's best player). In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.
    Bouncepass pretty much nails the Bosh / Carmelo trade scenarios - Apples & Oranges (as others have said).

    Not to rain on the Ujiji parade, but has anyone taken into account the one factor that plays in Denver's favour - Altitude. During the 2012-13 season, the Nuggets were 38-3 at home (and 13-28 on the road) - better then Miami's home record of 37-4 (a function of that consecutive win record they were pursuing).

    In the previous 4 seasons (which excludes the strike shortened season), Denver averaged 7.8 losses at home per season. Their record during these years - including the short season - was:

    • 2012-13 -- 3rd
    • 2011-12 -- 6th (66 games. Messed up schedule. The ONLY time their Road record was +.500 [post 2006-07])
    • 2010-11 -- 5th
    • 2009-10 -- 4th
    • 2008-09 -- 3rd



    Even in 2007-08 season, when the Nuggets just made the play-offs (8th place), their home record was 33-8.

    All that being said, I still would like Ujiji to lead the charge for the Raptors. I also hope Lieweke keeps his nose out of that job - as I don't believe his qualifications warrant any intrusions. Fact is, I kind of think he's redundant in Toronto land. MLSE will have no trouble making boat loads of money ... now, and in the future - which from all that I've read, is what Tim's skill brought him fame. Personally, I didn't like the way he beat down the "past" in his interviews. Why retain a guy (BC), then belittle him in front of the Press. Doesn't strike me as someone I'd want to work for.

    Never-the-less, I hope I'm wrong on the Lieweke perspective, and that Ujiji prospers - should he come.

    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Tue May 28th, 2013 at 02:55 PM.

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    Denver's a team that has to somewhat overpay players to stay/come. I honestly don't look at any of the contracts over there and think they're retarded though.

    Then you look at Fields/Derozans contracts...

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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Denver's a team that has to somewhat overpay players to stay/come. I honestly don't look at any of the contracts over there and think they're retarded though.

    Then you look at Fields/Derozans contracts...
    Fields - retarded.

    DeRozan - retarded? no. a gamble? yes.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Sounds like MLSE is offering him his projected worth as opposed to his current worth. Nothing wrong with that. I'm wondering what the offer is in comparison to what Colangelo got in his first deal with Toronto? I think they were paying him $5M/yr. It has to be higher than that. Could it be $6-10M range? I mean when you think about it, Bargnani makes beyond the high end of that and if one were to compare what Bargnani could produce for this team playing his best every night, and the impact of Ujiri could have on the team from the sidelines then there is no comparison. Great executive should make great money and they don't count against the cap so the risk is less.

    One more thing, money talks. If Denver offered $3-4M/yr and Toronto is offering $6-8M/yr then no brainer at the end of the day once feelings subside and logic takes over.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Sounds like MLSE is offering him his projected worth as opposed to his current worth. Nothing wrong with that. I'm wondering what the offer is in comparison to what Colangelo got in his first deal with Toronto? I think they were paying him $5M/yr. It has to be higher than that. Could it be $6-10M range? I mean when you think about it, Bargnani makes beyond the high end of that and if one were to compare what Bargnani could produce for this team playing his best every night, and the impact of Ujiri could have on the team from the sidelines then there is no comparison. Great executive should make great money and they don't count against the cap so the risk is less.

    One more thing, money talks. If Denver offered $3-4M/yr and Toronto is offering $6-8M/yr then no brainer at the end of the day once feelings subside and logic takes over.
    What I read was way below that. Denver staying at something like the 0,5 he makes now and Toronto offering 2 and going up to around 3 in the negotiations.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    What I read was way below that. Denver staying at something like the 0,5 he makes now and Toronto offering 2 and going up to around 3 in the negotiations.
    Wow, so they may get him for less than they were paying Colangelo? That's awesome if it happens.

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    The way I see it is that BC was tried and he failed while Ujiri is untried and hopefully succeeds. Not to take anything away from Chislom but Ujiri's managerial decisions which he quotes as reasons(anti BC) why Raps. are pursuing him is not true. The simple truth is that a 'head hunting Firm' that the Raptors hired identified him as the best AVAILABLE candidate.

    IMO they're both good. The MAIN difference was in how they dealt with Superstars of their respective teams. Ujiri situation was CLEAR wherein C Anthony was whining to be traded out while BC's situation was UNCLEAR with Bosh making many believe that he was going to stay when he really had other intentions. This is not to make excuses for BC but like Anthony if Bosh too had expressed his desire to be traded, things would be quite different in Raptorland.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    The way I see it is that BC was tried and he failed while Ujiri is untried and hopefully succeeds. Not to take anything away from Chislom but Ujiri's managerial decisions which he quotes as reasons(anti BC) why Raps. are pursuing him is not true. The simple truth is that a 'head hunting Firm' that the Raptors hired identified him as the best AVAILABLE candidate.

    IMO they're both good. The MAIN difference was in how they dealt with Superstars of their respective teams. Ujiri situation was CLEAR wherein C Anthony was whining to be traded out while BC's situation was UNCLEAR with Bosh making many believe that he was going to stay when he really had other intentions. This is not to make excuses for BC but like Anthony if Bosh too had expressed his desire to be traded, things would be quite different in Raptorland.
    What you say is essentially correct abount the Bosh-Colangelo matter and I am still of the view that Bosh was a weasel. However BC is paid to make determinations on such issues in the best interests of the Raptors. Once Bosh refused to sign/agree to a max. agreement the writing was on the wall. Ujiri learned from that. He also offered Melo the same and knew what was coming when it was refused. I do not fully recall but I believe Melo did not start insisting on the Knicks until much later in the process and otherwise being quite vague about his intentions. Bosh on the other hand always maintained he was going to give the Raptors an equal shot and if not would cooperate on getting the best sign and trade deal for all concerned. That was a load.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    What you say is essentially correct abount the Bosh-Colangelo matter and I am still of the view that Bosh was a weasel. However BC is paid to make determinations on such issues in the best interests of the Raptors. Once Bosh refused to sign/agree to a max. agreement the writing was on the wall. Ujiri learned from that. He also offered Melo the same and knew what was coming when it was refused. I do not fully recall but I believe Melo did not start insisting on the Knicks until much later in the process and otherwise being quite vague about his intentions. Bosh on the other hand always maintained he was going to give the Raptors an equal shot and if not would cooperate on getting the best sign and trade deal for all concerned. That was a load.
    I agree that's it was BC's job to 'make determinations' on matters, especially one as important as the 'Bosh situation'. That's the reason he was GM and no excuse is acceptable.

    I just don't agree with Chislom on this matter.
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