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Thread: Chisholm: Ujiri the anti-Colangelo?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Chisholm: Ujiri the anti-Colangelo?

    **I am sure this will be merged but thought it could go on its own for a couple of days first**

    Tim Chisholm is no longer writing for TSN.ca and now has his own blog: threeinthekey.ca. Tim always has insightful and well thought articles, make sure you make it a part of your Raptor reading.

    Now the Raptors just have to sit tight while Ujiri mulls their offer. He may still choose to leave significant dollars on the table to finish the job that he started in Denver, as unlikely as that seems today, but if he does opt to return to Canada then Raptors fans can expect to see a very different set of priorities guiding their team beginning this summer. If Tim Leiweke wanted a fresh perspective in the front office, it’s somewhat ironic that he found it in a Colangelo disciple, but you’d be hard-pressed to find another executive who has operated so counter to Colangelo’s style over the last three years, which basically makes him an ideal fit to inherit the man’s chair if he ultimately decides that he wants it.

    http://threeinthekey.ca/what-is-it-about-ujiri-2/
    This article is worth the click.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...This article is worth the click.
    Amen to that. A very nice summary of the difference between BC and Ujiri. Makes me want to see him as Raptor GM even more.

    The blog post mentions his lack of fascination with "name" players as being important to his success. He can be dispassionate about his own players and trade them without losing sleep if it makes the team better. I wonder if that implies he can dispassionately compare the salary he is being offered by the Nuggets and the one Toronto is offering :-)

    Hope so.

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    It feels like in the new age of sports, player and management loyalty is no longer relevant. Chivalry is dead.

    Good.

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    One of the main differences between the two is the return on the trade of their star player. In this, Chisholm acknowledges but downplays the differences. Not only did Bosh continue to play coy with Raptors' fans and management about his intentions, he only had one target destination - Miami. If Colangelo had the flexibility to look at more than one destination for trading Bosh, he too could have ratcheted up the value of the trade. Instead, Bosh left him with no alternative but to get whatever he could. Since other teams would have had little interest in trading for Bosh only to lose him to Miami, there was no trade value. This was all orchestrated by Bosh and the Heat. If Colangelo had been at liberty to get market value for Bosh, the Raptors franchise would be in a much better position (as would the Cavs, who got very little for trading this generation's best player). In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    One similarity between Ujiri and Colangelo was the handling of their restricted free agents. Gallinari is a better player then DeMar (in my opinion) but he offered him an extension prior to the end of his 4th year. I believe it was in January while DeMar got his extension in September. When Gallinari got that extension I thought it was an overpayment (and still do). I don't know if he would have gotten as much from the market (unless if he was scared of Bryan throwing a massive amount of money at him).

    But other then that, the way they've been going about building their teams has been different. Still not sure about Ujiri but any new GM will be an upgrade over Colangelo.

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    Denver's a team that has to somewhat overpay players to stay/come. I honestly don't look at any of the contracts over there and think they're retarded though.

    Then you look at Fields/Derozans contracts...

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    Raptors Republic Starter omgsomuchpotential's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Denver's a team that has to somewhat overpay players to stay/come. I honestly don't look at any of the contracts over there and think they're retarded though.

    Then you look at Fields/Derozans contracts...
    Fields - retarded.

    DeRozan - retarded? no. a gamble? yes.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Sounds like MLSE is offering him his projected worth as opposed to his current worth. Nothing wrong with that. I'm wondering what the offer is in comparison to what Colangelo got in his first deal with Toronto? I think they were paying him $5M/yr. It has to be higher than that. Could it be $6-10M range? I mean when you think about it, Bargnani makes beyond the high end of that and if one were to compare what Bargnani could produce for this team playing his best every night, and the impact of Ujiri could have on the team from the sidelines then there is no comparison. Great executive should make great money and they don't count against the cap so the risk is less.

    One more thing, money talks. If Denver offered $3-4M/yr and Toronto is offering $6-8M/yr then no brainer at the end of the day once feelings subside and logic takes over.

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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    . In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.
    Yeah, Colangelo was the poster boy for the league in terms of getting burned by an All-star which the team is built around. Had it been someone else, and a year earlier, perhaps Colangelo would not have got nailed like that. Hard to say.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I am not fussed one way or another about specific moves a GM makes. What matters is, at the end of the day, does he put together a team of good players that wins. Denver has a lot of really good players. Denver wins. Denver should win a lot of games next year, too. And the year after that. In three years, Ujiri brought in more good players to Denver than BC has brought in during 7 years. He's also done it for cheaper while winning more.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.
    2 things:

    1) Melo was on record as saying, "I'm not Chris Bosh." i.e. he was not going to leave his team high and dry without warning.

    2) Melo could not get absolute max money without a sign and trade - which is what he wanted. Donnie Walsh told Dolan at the time to wait but Dolan wanted it done yesterday. Masai was lucky that Dolan was impatient.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    You are so wrong, Anthony said publicly he would only play for the Knicks, Masai was the one who had no levarage and still made it work, Bosh didn't say anything untill free agency, BC could have dealt him to any team before the trade deadline but didn't because he thought he could convince Bosh to stay even tough he wouldnt sign an extension.
    Please explain this article, then (from January, 2011). http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ory?id=6005596

    Quoting...

    A busy weekend of roller-coaster activity on the Carmelo Anthony trade front has ushered the New Jersey Nets to the brink of a deal for the superstar forward for the second time, according to sources close to the negotiations.

    Thanks to the recruitment of the Detroit Pistons as a third-party facilitator, New Jersey's long-standing attempts to pry Anthony away from Denver are "further along" than any trade scenario that has been discussed since the Nets' near acquisition of the All-Star in late September, sources close to the negotiations said Sunday.

    and....
    As of late Sunday night, sources said, New Jersey believed it was poised to receive Anthony, Billups and Hamilton, with Denver landing two future first-round picks and six players. The Nuggets' haul would feature Nets rookie Derrick Favors, former All-Star guard Devin Harris and Nets sharpshooter Anthony Morrow.
    Do you still contend that Ujiri had no leverage with the Knicks? He was reportedly being offered two first round picks plus Favors and Harris by the Nets.

    Colangelo could have dealt Bosh, but who would have traded for him without commitment that he would re-sign with them? Clearly, he was focused on the Heat, and would therefore not be willing to commit to any other team.

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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    Please explain this article, then (from January, 2011). http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ory?id=6005596

    Quoting...



    Do you still contend that Ujiri had no leverage with the Knicks? He was reportedly being offered two first round picks plus Favors and Harris by the Nets.

    Colangelo could have dealt Bosh, but who would have traded for him without commitment that he would re-sign with them? Clearly, he was focused on the Heat, and would therefore not be willing to commit to any other team.
    Riiiiiight

    I forgot about New Jersey.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    I Would prefer a gm with a championship under his belt but , I guess we got the next best thing

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    As Bouncepass has appropriately pointed out, the Bosh and Melo scenarios were apples to oranges, so I don't respect Chisholm's brief lip service to the situations being so completely different, while continuing to say that the way the two were handled indicates that Masai is the anti-BC. The man speaks with forked tongue.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Sounds like MLSE is offering him his projected worth as opposed to his current worth. Nothing wrong with that. I'm wondering what the offer is in comparison to what Colangelo got in his first deal with Toronto? I think they were paying him $5M/yr. It has to be higher than that. Could it be $6-10M range? I mean when you think about it, Bargnani makes beyond the high end of that and if one were to compare what Bargnani could produce for this team playing his best every night, and the impact of Ujiri could have on the team from the sidelines then there is no comparison. Great executive should make great money and they don't count against the cap so the risk is less.

    One more thing, money talks. If Denver offered $3-4M/yr and Toronto is offering $6-8M/yr then no brainer at the end of the day once feelings subside and logic takes over.
    What I read was way below that. Denver staying at something like the 0,5 he makes now and Toronto offering 2 and going up to around 3 in the negotiations.

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    nothing makes me happier than reading a well thought out, well written article on bball.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Again, BC kept Bosh until Free Agency, this is not a trade, Sign & Trade is a consolation prize, it created as consolation prize so teams can get something in return, its hardly a negotiation, Melo happened from the summer to the point he was traded, Superstars demanding trades always have changed up their list if their first option is not available because it is not up to them yet, so they have to bend. When you are a free agent you hold all the cards and dont have to bend.
    Its apples and Oranges because BC let it become apple and oranges, if BC had told him sign and extension or you're going to the Bobcats, you dont think Bosh would have to give him more targets then Miami. again Sign and Trade is only a trade in name, Bosh walked out, its that simple.

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    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    One of the main differences between the two is the return on the trade of their star player. In this, Chisholm acknowledges but downplays the differences. Not only did Bosh continue to play coy with Raptors' fans and management about his intentions, he only had one target destination - Miami. If Colangelo had the flexibility to look at more than one destination for trading Bosh, he too could have ratcheted up the value of the trade. Instead, Bosh left him with no alternative but to get whatever he could. Since other teams would have had little interest in trading for Bosh only to lose him to Miami, there was no trade value. This was all orchestrated by Bosh and the Heat. If Colangelo had been at liberty to get market value for Bosh, the Raptors franchise would be in a much better position (as would the Cavs, who got very little for trading this generation's best player). In contrast, Ujiri was able to look at various trade options for Carmelo, and teams knew that they would have to pay in the form of salary relief, draft picks and assets to acquire him. He did a good job on the trade, but comparing his situation to Colangelo's is apples to oranges.
    My biggest complaint over the Bosh situation is that in the offseason prior to his Final year with Raps BC should have either got extension signed or traded him.

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