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Thread: Chisholm: Ujiri the anti-Colangelo?

  1. #21
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    Again, BC kept Bosh until Free Agency, this is not a trade, Sign & Trade is a consolation prize, it created as consolation prize so teams can get something in return, its hardly a negotiation, Melo happened from the summer to the point he was traded, Superstars demanding trades always have changed up their list if their first option is not available because it is not up to them yet, so they have to bend. When you are a free agent you hold all the cards and dont have to bend.
    Its apples and Oranges because BC let it become apple and oranges, if BC had told him sign and extension or you're going to the Bobcats, you dont think Bosh would have to give him more targets then Miami. again Sign and Trade is only a trade in name, Bosh walked out, its that simple.
    Agreed.

  2. #22
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    What I read was way below that. Denver staying at something like the 0,5 he makes now and Toronto offering 2 and going up to around 3 in the negotiations.
    Wow, so they may get him for less than they were paying Colangelo? That's awesome if it happens.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    Again, BC kept Bosh until Free Agency, this is not a trade, Sign & Trade is a consolation prize, it created as consolation prize so teams can get something in return, its hardly a negotiation, Melo happened from the summer to the point he was traded, Superstars demanding trades always have changed up their list if their first option is not available because it is not up to them yet, so they have to bend. When you are a free agent you hold all the cards and dont have to bend.
    Its apples and Oranges because BC let it become apple and oranges, if BC had told him sign and extension or you're going to the Bobcats, you dont think Bosh would have to give him more targets then Miami. again Sign and Trade is only a trade in name, Bosh walked out, its that simple.
    Not really because the Bobcats (or any other team) were not giving up assets to get a player they might only have for 3 months. If BC pulled that, Bosh could have said, "Fine. I"m still not signing an extension and I'm still going to be unrestricted in 3 months."

    It sucks for Toronto and Cleveland that they were the guinea pigs for something that had never been done before - players leaving money on the table to play with one another.
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  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    **I am sure this will be merged but thought it could go on its own for a couple of days first**

    Tim Chisholm is no longer writing for TSN.ca and now has his own blog: threeinthekey.ca. Tim always has insightful and well thought articles, make sure you make it a part of your Raptor reading.



    This article is worth the click.
    thanks Matt. I couldn't see Chisholm for a week and wondered what was up.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    Not to diminish how Ujiri handled the Melo melodrama because he in the end he was not swayed by the threat that Melo wanted only to go to the Knicks. I wanted at the time so much that the Nets get him because he would have to have signed on or lost a considerable amount in a straight f/a deal (I dont care for Melo). Ujiri milked the Nets interest totally because there was more than just getting a superstar for the Nets...Prokhorov was trying to upstage Dolan for attention in NYC and he wanted a big name for the Barclays Centre. Dolan of course wanted to show he had a larger bulge in his pants. Ujiri lucked into getting more than he would have otherwise got....but well played he certainly did.

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  7. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Not to diminish how Ujiri handled the Melo melodrama because he in the end he was not swayed by the threat that Melo wanted only to go to the Knicks. I wanted at the time so much that the Nets get him because he would have to have signed on or lost a considerable amount in a straight f/a deal (I dont care for Melo). Ujiri milked the Nets interest totally because there was more than just getting a superstar for the Nets...Prokhorov was trying to upstage Dolan for attention in NYC and he wanted a big name for the Barclays Centre. Dolan of course wanted to show he had a larger bulge in his pants. Ujiri lucked into getting more than he would have otherwise got....but well played he certainly did.
    Good points.

    Whether or not the Nets got Melo, they also wanted to ensure the Knicks paid maximum price for him - which they did I think.
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  8. #27
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    The way I see it is that BC was tried and he failed while Ujiri is untried and hopefully succeeds. Not to take anything away from Chislom but Ujiri's managerial decisions which he quotes as reasons(anti BC) why Raps. are pursuing him is not true. The simple truth is that a 'head hunting Firm' that the Raptors hired identified him as the best AVAILABLE candidate.

    IMO they're both good. The MAIN difference was in how they dealt with Superstars of their respective teams. Ujiri situation was CLEAR wherein C Anthony was whining to be traded out while BC's situation was UNCLEAR with Bosh making many believe that he was going to stay when he really had other intentions. This is not to make excuses for BC but like Anthony if Bosh too had expressed his desire to be traded, things would be quite different in Raptorland.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    The way I see it is that BC was tried and he failed while Ujiri is untried and hopefully succeeds. Not to take anything away from Chislom but Ujiri's managerial decisions which he quotes as reasons(anti BC) why Raps. are pursuing him is not true. The simple truth is that a 'head hunting Firm' that the Raptors hired identified him as the best AVAILABLE candidate.

    IMO they're both good. The MAIN difference was in how they dealt with Superstars of their respective teams. Ujiri situation was CLEAR wherein C Anthony was whining to be traded out while BC's situation was UNCLEAR with Bosh making many believe that he was going to stay when he really had other intentions. This is not to make excuses for BC but like Anthony if Bosh too had expressed his desire to be traded, things would be quite different in Raptorland.
    What you say is essentially correct abount the Bosh-Colangelo matter and I am still of the view that Bosh was a weasel. However BC is paid to make determinations on such issues in the best interests of the Raptors. Once Bosh refused to sign/agree to a max. agreement the writing was on the wall. Ujiri learned from that. He also offered Melo the same and knew what was coming when it was refused. I do not fully recall but I believe Melo did not start insisting on the Knicks until much later in the process and otherwise being quite vague about his intentions. Bosh on the other hand always maintained he was going to give the Raptors an equal shot and if not would cooperate on getting the best sign and trade deal for all concerned. That was a load.

  10. #29
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    What you say is essentially correct abount the Bosh-Colangelo matter and I am still of the view that Bosh was a weasel. However BC is paid to make determinations on such issues in the best interests of the Raptors. Once Bosh refused to sign/agree to a max. agreement the writing was on the wall. Ujiri learned from that. He also offered Melo the same and knew what was coming when it was refused. I do not fully recall but I believe Melo did not start insisting on the Knicks until much later in the process and otherwise being quite vague about his intentions. Bosh on the other hand always maintained he was going to give the Raptors an equal shot and if not would cooperate on getting the best sign and trade deal for all concerned. That was a load.
    I agree that's it was BC's job to 'make determinations' on matters, especially one as important as the 'Bosh situation'. That's the reason he was GM and no excuse is acceptable.

    I just don't agree with Chislom on this matter.
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  11. #30
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    1) Ujiri had the benefit of seeing what happened to bosh (as well as James), so his decision was informed by it (them).

    2) We have seen teams wanting to trade for an all-star even though said all-star is not willing to give them a guarantee that hey will resign (Nets w/ 'Melo, Lakers w/Dwight) I think there are enough teams that believe they could convince bosh to stay, that had Coangelo put him on the table, he would have had more than one suitor. Unfortunately, the idea that you can convince an all-star to stay once you have him in your org, is the same mentality that Coangelo had, and thus tried to keep him.

    3) In my books Coangelo doesn't lose points for not trading bosh before the deadline (although in hindsight that is almost certainly the better decision. What he does lose points for is building a team so poorly that bosh was willing to leave, trading draft picks away, and missing on EVERY home run he tried. Plus holding onto Andrea for about 3 years (AND COUNTING!) too long...

    4) If the article was just about the Melo trade, than I'd call it an unfair as one (IMO) was CLEARLY influenced by the other. However, their was more to it than that. Sure calling him the anti-Coangelo is a touch hyperbolic, but I do think that he does a good job in pointing out that Ujiri may be a more moneyball gm than Coangelo, and a journalist without hyperbole is like a fish without water.

    5) If your not getting a guy like Phil Jackson, then I'm all for Ujiri
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  12. #31
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    At this point, I don't care how they are different, as long as they are.

    I do think that the BC-Bosh burn changed the NBA landscape. If that doesn't happen then perhaps neither Melo or Deron get traded. It turned out as it often does, the team with the best info got to make the better decision. They got to learn from the mistakes (in hindsight) of BC and Ferry.

    The biggest thing in the Chisholm article that gives me optimism is the 3 point shooting roster of Denver vs BC's Raptors where none of the big additions (Gay, Fields, and even Lowry to some extent) can shoot the 3 consistently. Having a GM who is on top of the current trends and maxifying the roster is what we need more than anything.
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  13. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I think Ujiri's haul for Melo is even more impressive because Melo said he only wanted to play in NY. It's like getting a player to fold who has four of a kind.
    @jerboat

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  15. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    All this love for Masai is getting me curious as to what was the general feeling or what was said on this forum when we hired Colangelo.

  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    All this love for Masai is getting me curious as to what was the general feeling or what was said on this forum when we hired Colangelo.
    It was euphoria.

    He did some good things right away. Unfortunately he could not sustain - let alone grow.

    For whatever reason, I still would rather Weaver to get a shot.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon May 27th, 2013 at 10:55 AM.
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    All this love for Masai is getting me curious as to what was the general feeling or what was said on this forum when we hired Colangelo.
    I think virtually every Raps fan was ecstatic at the Colangelo hire, particularly after the disastrous Babcock era.

    As for Ujiri, it's hard not to be positive when the guy who just put together a 57-win Denver team and won EOY is in line to be the new GM. I'm pretty cynical but it's still baffling to me that anyone can actually be down on this hire (if it happens).

  18. #36
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    All this love for Masai is getting me curious as to what was the general feeling or what was said on this forum when we hired Colangelo.
    I wasn't involved here then but I was in other places and the sense of excitement, endless possibility. Colangelo was going to be the "savior". He got the #1 pick, lots of cap space and he put together a solid team. That solid team started falling apart right around when Jorge got hurt and could never recover.

  19. #37
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It was euphoria.

    He did some good things right away. Unfortunately he could not sustain - let alone grow.

    For whatever reason, I still would rather Weaver to get a shot.
    I'm still behind Pritchard myself, but I'd be happy with any GM that beleives in building through the draft. Teams like Charlotte and Clevland are bottom dwellers now, but they're putting together top 5 after top 5 picks. At some point they're going to be in really good position talent wise and cap wise to make some noise. I think both Pritchard and Weaver would share that philosophy considering their backgrounds.

  20. #38
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    That solid team started falling apart right around when Jorge got hurt and could never recover.
    I think Sam Mitchell's firing was the beginning of the down fall. When you think about it, the teams that didn't make the play offs the following two years under Triano would have made it at least once(if not twice) if Mitchell was still there. Especially the year in which Raps. were at 4th place before the AS break. If that{continued success) had happened, it may have encouraged Bosh to stay and the 'rebuilding' would never had been necessary.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  21. #39
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I think virtually every Raps fan was ecstatic at the Colangelo hire, particularly after the disastrous Babcock era.

    As for Ujiri, it's hard not to be positive when the guy who just put together a 57-win Denver team and won EOY is in line to be the new GM. I'm pretty cynical but it's still baffling to me that anyone can actually be down on this hire (if it happens).
    I'm not down on Ujiri, but I just don't give him as much credit for the state of the Denver Nuggets, as many do. I feel like he went into a really good scenario in Denver where he had a really big trade chip and a team in NY that would do anything to acquire Melo. He also had some good peices there already, and was able to get some good talent from a very willing trade partner. Also, Denver has a top 5 coach in George Karl, so imo a lot of the peices sort of fell in place for Ujiri. That doesn't mean that he isn't a good GM, but it's such a small sample size of what he's done.

    Also, for me personally I would want a GM that wants to rebuild the roster through the draft. Keep JV, move large contracts for picks and young talent and start fresh. But, the instant gratification of trying to compete with the current roster would be satisfying as well. I just don't know if the ceiling is that high for this roster even with a tweak here and there.

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    Am I the only one more in favour of the Kevin Pritchard/Troy Weaver combo over Ujiri? Not to diss MU because he did turn lead into gold with that Melo trade, but the KP has a longer CV and Weaver is coming from a very strong front office with OKC that has been moulded in the school of RC Buford and the Spurs.

    There's pros and cons of course, but I am a little leery of Ujiri because his pedigree is straight Colangelo. it may not be valid but with BC still in the fold you gotta think he'll have some kinda pipeline to MU.
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