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Thread: If the team could stick a high-percentage 3pt shooter into the starting SG spot....

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The person who posted the Jose Bautista quote a while ago nailed it. You can't ask a .230 hitter to hit .275 or a 10hr hitter to hit 25. After 4 years in the league with minutes and opportunities heaped upon him, DD is what he.
    DeRozan will come back with a new spin-move and people will be like, "look, he's improving!"
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Right and he was already playing 37 minutes per game.

    Look at hte #AprilFoolsGold end of season he had. Last five games he put up 25ppg on 60%fg, 64%3pt, and 85%ft on 7 attempts per game. Man, that is awesome. Then look at his rebounds, assists, and steals - 2.4reb, 1.0ast, 0.4stl.

    The person who posted the Jose Bautista quote a while ago nailed it. You can't ask a .230 hitter to hit .275 or a 10hr hitter to hit 25. After 4 years in the league with minutes and opportunities heaped upon him, DD is what he.
    Matt, you're not getting my point. I'm not saying he's going to do it naturally. SHOT DISTRIBUTION! I'm saying what if they went with your plan? More shots for everybody, even it out, THEN see what his stats look like after a season. Everything he's done so far he's been doing because this team has constantly relied on him to do so much of the scoring for some reason while Lowry and Jonas didn't get a whole lot.

    If you think it's impossible for a guy to mould his game that slightly then what's the point anyone even ever trying anything? It's not the highest bar anyone can set. Greater things have been done. This is just asking a guy to score a little less and hustle a little more. The guy has played the role he's been assigned. Assign him another role and see what happens.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Basketball is not the same as baseball. I'm not gonna be swayed because of a random quote some guy said lol

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Matt, you're not getting my point. I'm not saying he's going to do it naturally. SHOT DISTRIBUTION! I'm saying what if they went with your plan? More shots for everybody, even it out, THEN see what his stats look like after a season. Everything he's done so far he's been doing because this team has constantly relied on him to do so much of the scoring for some reason while Lowry and Jonas didn't get a whole lot.

    If you think it's impossible for a guy to mould his game that slightly then what's the point anyone even ever trying anything? It's not the highest bar anyone can set. Greater things have been done. This is just asking a guy to score a little less and hustle a little more. The guy has played the role he's been assigned. Assign him another role and see what happens.
    I get your point.

    I just don't believe that after four years a player can suddenly become above average in areas they have been below average - especially when it comes to something like rebounds and steals. He has shown the ability to improve at areas but never consistently sustain it.

    Your last paragraph is the same line of thinking that many fans, myself included, had when talking about Bargnani getting more rebounds. Averaging an extra 1.5rebs or an assist or a full steal is not easy to do. Averaging 5.5 rebounds per game would put him at the league leaders at SG and averaging 2 steals per game would put him in the upper echelon of the league in that category. What you are suggesting is not "easy" by any means and these types of improvements are hardly "slight".
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Bargnani is an underachiever though, he's never been the hard worker that Derozan is. They're not the same guy! Bargnani never said "I am going to improve on this" in regards to any aspect of his game. Derozan has consistently set goals for himself.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    To me it sounds like you were at one time a big Bargnani believer, he never panned out and now you don't believe anybody can change lol Don't let AB's career determine what you think of other players.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is an underachiever though, he's never been the hard worker that Derozan is. They're not the same guy! Bargnani never said "I am going to improve on this" in regards to any aspect of his game. Derozan has consistently set goals for himself.
    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    To me it sounds like you were at one time a big Bargnani believer, he never panned out and now you don't believe anybody can change lol Don't let AB's career determine what you think of other players.
    I understand the negative feelings towards Bargnani and the fact that his outward appearance is largely void of emotion, giving the impression that he could care less, but you don't make the NBA without having a passion for basketball and a good work ethic. He started out as an outside shooter, but worked hard his first few years to add a post game, head fakes, dribble-drives and fadeaways. His main problem was that he was only asked to score in the beginning (who does that sound like, per your own explanation?) and he just couldn't execute that consistently (and would get down when his shot wasn't falling).

    There is a pattern of similarity between the two players which is eerily similar, at least when it comes to their on-court performance. They are both one-dimensional, inefficient scorers, who can completely disappear for stretches. Off the court it's a different story altogether, but that doesn't help win games unless it positively impacts their on-court performance. Despite his great attitude, wearing his emotion on his sleeves, stated love of Toronto, alleged 'gym rat' work ethic and continuous banter about working hard to improve his game over the past 4 years, I've yet to see significant, sustained payoff in DeRozan's on-court results.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 03:06 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie JStockton's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Matt, you're not getting my point. I'm not saying he's going to do it naturally. SHOT DISTRIBUTION! I'm saying what if they went with your plan? More shots for everybody, even it out, THEN see what his stats look like after a season. Everything he's done so far he's been doing because this team has constantly relied on him to do so much of the scoring for some reason while Lowry and Jonas didn't get a whole lot.

    If you think it's impossible for a guy to mould his game that slightly then what's the point anyone even ever trying anything? It's not the highest bar anyone can set. Greater things have been done. This is just asking a guy to score a little less and hustle a little more. The guy has played the role he's been assigned. Assign him another role and see what happens.
    Ummmmmm are we talking about doping now?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote JStockton wrote: View Post
    Ummmmmm are we talking about doping now?
    What did you think we were talking about? lol No I mean DD is not as naturally talented as AB, therefore he has had to work harder to get his game where it is. DD didn't even have a jump shot in his rookie season. Bargnani was bombing 3's from the get-go. As for rebounding, AB is a 7 footer, he has less excuses for being able to do this than DD.

    Christ, you guys don't even want to give him half a season. My biggest problem is I don't think any of the trades being discussed in this thread would make our team any better. I would have a hard time living with myself if we let Derozan go and he just got better and better.

    If Rudy is also an inefficient scorer then what happens on a night where his shots aren't dropping? We'd basically be left with Lowry and JV to hold things together.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    What did you think we were talking about? lol No I mean DD is not as naturally talented as AB, therefore he has had to work harder to get his game where it is. DD didn't even have a jump shot in his rookie season. Bargnani was bombing 3's from the get-go. As for rebounding, AB is a 7 footer, he has less excuses for being able to do this than DD.

    Christ, you guys don't even want to give him half a season. My biggest problem is I don't think any of the trades being discussed in this thread would make our team any better. I would have a hard time living with myself if we let Derozan go and he just got better and better.

    If Rudy is also an inefficient scorer then what happens on a night where his shots aren't dropping? We'd basically be left with Lowry and JV to hold things together.
    1st bold - we've given him 4 seasons, 3 of which he was a primary scorer (this sounds like the Bargnani debate all over again)

    2nd bold - we'd be left with an improved/experienced JV, a healthy KL who should be allowed to play his natural attack style game more often, PLUS an upgraded starting PF who should have a more refined offensive game than AJ and an ability to draw double-teams, PLUS whoever the starting SG is (be it a glue guy like a healthy/improved Fields, an improved Ross or a TBD player). Your analysis of a DeRozan-less starting lineup was definitely incomplete... your DeRozan-bias missed half the non-RG starting lineup!!!

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  15. #71
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    DeMar was not the primary scorer Bargnani was all this time DeMAr had to finish some broken plays but he was not the primary scorer not until the early parts of this season and he played admirably beside Lowry the rest of the team killed his production though. Seriously man DeMar gets no love. Everything about the team is built for Bargnani not DeMar.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar was not the primary scorer Bargnani was all this time DeMAr had to finish some broken plays but he was not the primary scorer not until the early parts of this season and he played admirably beside Lowry the rest of the team killed his production though. Seriously man DeMar gets no love. Everything about the team is built for Bargnani not DeMar.
    I know you like DeRozan, but come on, the past 2 seasons have been the Bargnani/DeRozan show. For big chunks of both seasons, while Bargnani was injured, it was the DeRozan show (until the Gay trade). You have to be a little more objective when evaluating players.

  17. #73
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar was not the primary scorer Bargnani was all this time DeMAr had to finish some broken plays but he was not the primary scorer not until the early parts of this season and he played admirably beside Lowry the rest of the team killed his production though. Seriously man DeMar gets no love. Everything about the team is built for Bargnani not DeMar.
    How many games has Bargnani missed due to injury the last 3 years? Who was #1 then?

    You are absolutely right everything about this team is built for Bargnani.... including a SG who can't shoot 3s.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  18. #74
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I was hoping this whole discussion wouldn't turn into a DeMar thread. The word "if" is in the damn title. Thought that made it pretty obvious that it's a speculative thread just for fun. I'm a DeMar fan, and think trading him this summer is premature. I don't think his value is at its highest yet, and think that will come sometime within the next season or two. I'm ok trading him, but not in a rush.

    Back on the idea of the thread though, I'll just assume it would mean DeMar is gone, because it's easier to think of changing the wing rotation if he's out. Fields just can't be traded, and if Ujiri is going to value youth, I can't see him trading Ross. My list is..

    -Afflalo...Could be available just by giving Orlando some long-term cap relief.
    -Jared Dudley: Same reasoning as Afflalo, PHX may want to dump some long deals as they rebuild. Either guy might be had at a low cost.
    -Matt Barnes: Free agent, but has never gotten a big deal. Probably won't again. Raptors could probably bid for him with whatever exception space they have.
    -Corey Brewer: Also a free agent. Not sure what to make of his situation, but I can't see him really having better seasons than the one he just had. Can't imagine anyone dishing a huge contract for him, so I think the Raps would have a shot.

    Dudley and Afflalo are excellent 3 pt shooters....Barnes and Brewer, not so much, though Barnes is ok. I think all would fit into whatever culture they want to build in Toronto, and all could be real options. Afflalo and Brewer are also both guys Ujiri knows. If they trade DeMar, and then somehow replace him with Afflalo, while still having Ross, I'd be pretty happy.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Right and he was already playing 37 minutes per game.

    Look at hte #AprilFoolsGold end of season he had. Last five games he put up 25ppg on 60%fg, 64%3pt, and 85%ft on 7 attempts per game. Man, that is awesome. Then look at his rebounds, assists, and steals - 2.4reb, 1.0ast, 0.4stl.

    The person who posted the Jose Bautista quote a while ago nailed it. You can't ask a .230 hitter to hit .275 or a 10hr hitter to hit 25. After 4 years in the league with minutes and opportunities heaped upon him, DD is what he.
    I really wish you adopted this philosophy after year 6 with Bargnani.....lol... You must have some hurt left over - your reasoning are starting to sound like we're still talking about Bargnani!!

    Hard work = Nothing in Matt's world. You can't improve after year 4 in Matt's world. Gotcha. I used to think you were optomistic.....now I wonder if you have a personal hate on for DD. I hope you don't jump back on the DD bandwagon when he proves you wrong. Just continue to wear egg on your face dude.

  20. #76
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I really wish you adopted this philosophy after year 6 with Bargnani.....lol... You must have some hurt left over - your reasoning are starting to sound like we're still talking about Bargnani!!

    Hard work = Nothing in Matt's world. You can't improve after year 4 in Matt's world. Gotcha. I used to think you were optomistic.....now I wonder if you have a personal hate on for DD. I hope you don't jump back on the DD bandwagon when he proves you wrong. Just continue to wear egg on your face dude.
    Better late than never on Bargnani and I have no hate for DeRozan.

    special1 you have just lived up to your handle.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I really wish you adopted this philosophy after year 6 with Bargnani.....lol... You must have some hurt left over - your reasoning are starting to sound like we're still talking about Bargnani!!

    Hard work = Nothing in Matt's world. You can't improve after year 4 in Matt's world. Gotcha. I used to think you were optomistic.....now I wonder if you have a personal hate on for DD. I hope you don't jump back on the DD bandwagon when he proves you wrong. Just continue to wear egg on your face dude.
    Just to add to my previous reply to this. I assume the angst from special1 have stemmed from the comment where I said it would be impossible for DD to average 16pts, 5.5rebs, 4.0ast, and 2stl.

    Here is a challenge *no pun intended* to special1 (or anyone else):

    Can anyone find a player in the history of the NBA who after 3 straight seasons of averaging over 35minutes per game (34.8, 35.0, 36.7) has increased their:

    rebounds by 41% (3.9 to 5.5)?
    assists by 60% (2.5 to 4.0)?
    steals 122% (0.9 to 2.0)?



    My views on DD has nothing to do with hate. There is nothing personal against DD. If you want to talk about how he can become a more efficient scorer, I can at least get behind that argument. However, if you want to talk about increasing by the percentages I have listed above, I am sorry, that is impossible in my opinion when he is already averaging 36.7 minutes per game.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    1st bold - we've given him 4 seasons, 3 of which he was a primary scorer (this sounds like the Bargnani debate all over again)

    2nd bold - we'd be left with an improved/experienced JV, a healthy KL who should be allowed to play his natural attack style game more often, PLUS an upgraded starting PF who should have a more refined offensive game than AJ and an ability to draw double-teams, PLUS whoever the starting SG is (be it a glue guy like a healthy/improved Fields, an improved Ross or a TBD player). Your analysis of a DeRozan-less starting lineup was definitely incomplete... your DeRozan-bias missed half the non-RG starting lineup!!!
    Well if it isn't the 3 usual suspects.....Nilanka, Matt52, CalgaryRapsFan

    You guys will never give up huh? I'm fairly confident that you will not get your way again. Thanks for convincing half the republic that Rudy Gay was a great acquisition. NOW you say we should trade DD because Rudy does the EXACT (fairly close in my books) same things BUT is WAAYYYY overpaid.

    LOL - I must say that i do get a laugh out of your persistent hate. How many ways can you go about explaining to the rest of us why we should be happy to trade our (paraphrasing your words to get to the point) Shitty but somehow top 2/3 player on our team in Demar Derozan.

    All of a sudden he (OVERPAID as you all claim) is our best asset. Hmmmm..... amazing. He is overpaid, he sucks at everything, even inefficient.....yet he's our best asset.

    Your trade scenarios put us on a treadmill. I have yet to see an actual trade scenario that makes us better. The moment i see Landry Fields starting (without seeing an improved 3 point shot) I start to laugh all over again. Remember your major knock on DD is his 3 point shot.....yet LF can't shoot 3's or is scared to. WOW

    I'm starting to think you want DD out of here soooooo bad because your EGOS couldn't handle it if you were to be proven wrong. Its the only rational reason. Think about it. The most reasonable thing to do is trade Rudy Gay of the two. He's more talented (as you all say).....He's taller, Longer, and a better 3 point shooter (over his career). Yes, he's paid more.... BUT there are other teams who could afford him (do i really have to list reasons why a team would take Rudy for 2 more years?).

    If we're looking to save cap room and maybe rebuild......wouldn't it make more sense to keep the smaller more cap friendly contract????? I call it the BC spin.....explain to us again why it makes more sense to pay 18 million per year instead of 9.5 million per year on ONE player......

    Shouldn't we at least explore possible trades instead of throwing up our hands in the air and saying DD must go?? Obviously, I didn't agree much with you guys BEFORE Rudy came along, BUT now .....

    I'm actually okay with seeing how DD and RG play together for at least 1/2 of the upcoming season without making any drastic changes.
    Last edited by special1; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 06:41 PM.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Better late than never on Bargnani and I have no hate for DeRozan.

    special1 you have just lived up to your handle.

    Thank you Matt52!..... I rarely take your insults to heart. After all you supported Bryan Collangelo and Bargnani up until the 7th year......then all of a sudden you changed like you had a split personality. Maybe you should change your name to special one for hanging in so long....lol

    I mean after 4 years your shitting on DD (who by the way plays an entirely different position than Bargnani) and isn't NEARLY as useless (I mean didnt Demar average more rebounds, assists and FG% than AB - last year?? Also, for their careers DD shoots a higher FG% than Bargs - a freaking 7 footer!!

    Honestly, it's your fault for putting so much faith in the guy. Even a "special one" could see that you can't go all in with this guy. You should probably just let it go......don't take out your mistakes/frustrations on DD. They are not the same dude.
    Last edited by special1; Wed Jun 5th, 2013 at 06:46 PM. Reason: fixed some errors....changed some ish

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Thank you Matt52!..... I rarely take your insults to heart. After all you supported Bryan Collangelo and Bargnani up until the 7th year......then all of a sudden you changed like you had a split personality. Maybe you should change your name to special one for hanging in so long....lol

    I mean after 4 years your shitting on DD (who by the way plays an entirely different position than Bargnani) and isn't NEARLY as useless (I mean didnt Demar average more rebounds, assists and FG% than AB - last year and for their careers)??
    As circumstances change, so do opinions.

    For example: I thought you were worth the time conversing with. That has now changed.
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