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Thread: Raptors Rebuild Blueprint Discussion

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote [email protected] wrote: View Post
    Am I misusing hypothetical?
    I think so. You need to insert the word "my" or "possible"..your making me think you have inside information or something..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

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    need to pick up a pg in this draft and start pg,ross,fields,acy,jv

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Any talk of a rebuild should be called what it is: tanking or blowing it up. So with that in mind, here is what I would do:

    Old Roster (73 mill)

    Jonas/Gray
    Amir/Bargs/Acy
    Gay/Fields/Anderson/Kleiza/Pietrus
    Derozan/Ross
    Lowry/Lucas/Telfair

    Roster Moves

    Option Declined

    Goodbye John Lucas III


    Amnesty

    Goodbye Kleiza (needs to be done to make #'s work on upcoming trades)


    Trades

    Gay for #4, Ben Gordon, 2014 Pistons pick (top 8 protected)
    Bargnani and Gray for Biedrins, Jefferson, #13, 2014 pick from GSW (three team deal, Marion to GSW)
    DeRozan and Lowry for #14, Hayward, Williams, 2014 pick from Utah


    Draft

    2013
    #4: Bennett
    #13: Schroeder
    #14: Adetokunbo (Euro stash for 2 seasons in ACB)

    2014
    Raps own pick
    Detroit (top 8 protected '14, top 1 '15, unprotected 2016)
    GSW
    Utah


    Free Agents
    Veteran free agent PG with full or partial MLE (Mo Williams, Darren Collison, Beno Udrih)
    Minimum 3rd string PG


    New 2013-14 roster

    PG: (Vet), Schroeder, (min)
    SG: Fields, Ross, Gordon
    SF: Hayward, Jefferson, Williams
    PF: Amir, Bennett, Acy
    C: Jonas, Biedrins


    The biggest problem (besides reality) is the total salary is $75.6M which puts them about $4M over the projected luxury tax of $71.6M. However, if MLSE are serious about being willing to pay the tax if it makes the team better, getting 3 2013 draft picks and 3 extra 2014 draft picks would be a good way to put their money where their mouth is. Also, the repeater tax does not kick in until a team has been a tax payer for 3 of 4 seasons. The next time the Raptors could possibly be a tax team would be 2016-17 when JV and (possibly) Ross would be up for extensions.

    One roster space is left over for flexibility in 2013-14.

    What I like about the roster is you have 3 young, solid veterans in Hayward, Fields, and Amir. They are complimentary professional role players who can grow with the team. Hayward would be a restricted free agent after 2013 but Raps would have right to match any contract.

    The luxury tax would certainly not be a problem in 2013-2014. Gordon, Jefferson, Williams, and Biedrins would all be expiring with $41M coming off the books. 2013-2014 cap situation would be about $32M plus another $12M in possible 2014 rookie deals plus Hayward extension. The goal would be to keep the payroll around $50M so the Raps can enter the 2014-2015 season able to facilitate financial trades much like the Cavs did this past year.

    The 2014 draft looks extremely promising at PG, SF, and PF. The hope is a franchise talent (*gasp* or two!) is found in this draft.

    Come 2015-2016 season, the Raptors roster would hopefully be full of promising rookie contract talent with veteran role players like Amir, Fields, and Hayward rounding out the 2nd string and in their prime. There would be all sorts of possibilities with trades and free agency or if the whole "build through the draft" thing worked out, extensions would start being signed.


    **I always find these types of ideas fun because of the unknown with the draft. The danger of the unknown, though, is no one ever thinks about drafting a bust (either through injury, lacking NBA talent, disinterest after getting paid, poor fit). Everyone dreams of picking the LeBron James but do not consider the possibility of getting a Michael Beasley or Adam Morrison. If a bust occurs, all these grand dreams of greatness end up.... well, like the last 5 years and 13 of 18.**
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  5. #24
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    I'm 99% sure that Orlando isn't trading for Gay.

  6. #25
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I like the idea of Amir starting. I think he's earned it already, let the man prove himself to be able to handle the gig.

    I hope he never wears another jersey for his career.

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  8. #26
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    if the cavs are interested in granny danger, maybe they would take a gay for tt kind of thing

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  10. #27
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    If we're gonna go full rebuild/tank, I would go this route:


    1. Trade Gay to Cleveland for Tristan Thompson, Alonzo Gee, Tyler Zeller, Cleveland's #31 second-round draft pick in 2013, their own 2014 first-rounder and second-rounder
    2. Trade Bargnani and Aaron Gray to Charlotte for Ben Gordon + Portland's protected 2014 first-round pick
    3. Trade Lowry and Ross to Sacramento for John Salmons + Isaiah Thomas + Sacramento's 2014 pick
    4. Resign Alan Anderson at league minimum

    In the 2013 draft, draft Myck Kabongo, and your lineup is now

    PG: Thomas/Kabongo/JL3
    SG: DeRozan/Gordon/Salmons
    SF: Fields/Gee/Anderson
    PF: Amir/Thompson/Acy
    C: Jonas/Zeller

    And we have 2014 first rounders from Sacramento, Cleveland, Portland (top-12 protected but Portland has good odds of avoiding that) and our own, plus our second-rounders from Sacramento and Cleveland. Salmons may have lost his shot almost entirely and be a liability on the floor, but he has great basketball IQ and DeMar can learn that from him. We have very good, very young point guards - we might want to let JL3 walk if we can find a veteran floor general to teach them. We're stacked for young talented bigs. It's a very raw young team, but one with lots of potential.

  11. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    If we have Thompson hes starting over Amir no doubt.

  12. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    If we're gonna go full rebuild/tank, I would go this route:


    1. Trade Gay to Cleveland for Tristan Thompson, Alonzo Gee, Tyler Zeller, Cleveland's #31 second-round draft pick in 2013, their own 2014 first-rounder and second-rounder
    2. Trade Bargnani and Aaron Gray to Charlotte for Ben Gordon + Portland's protected 2014 first-round pick
    3. Trade Lowry and Ross to Sacramento for John Salmons + Isaiah Thomas + Sacramento's 2014 pick
    4. Resign Alan Anderson at league minimum

    In the 2013 draft, draft Myck Kabongo, and your lineup is now

    PG: Thomas/Kabongo/JL3
    SG: DeRozan/Gordon/Salmons
    SF: Fields/Gee/Anderson
    PF: Amir/Thompson/Acy
    C: Jonas/Zeller

    And we have 2014 first rounders from Sacramento, Cleveland, Portland (top-12 protected but Portland has good odds of avoiding that) and our own, plus our second-rounders from Sacramento and Cleveland. Salmons may have lost his shot almost entirely and be a liability on the floor, but he has great basketball IQ and DeMar can learn that from him. We have very good, very young point guards - we might want to let JL3 walk if we can find a veteran floor general to teach them. We're stacked for young talented bigs. It's a very raw young team, but one with lots of potential.
    I have a really hard time saying I wouldn't do this and I'm a huge Ross fan.

    I'm not sure teams are going to be giving up picks for next years draft tho.

  13. #30
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Any talk of a rebuild should be called what it is: tanking or blowing it up. So with that in mind, here is what I would do:

    Old Roster (73 mill)

    Jonas/Gray
    Amir/Bargs/Acy
    Gay/Fields/Anderson/Kleiza/Pietrus
    Derozan/Ross
    Lowry/Lucas/Telfair

    Roster Moves

    Option Declined

    Goodbye John Lucas III


    Amnesty

    Goodbye Kleiza (needs to be done to make #'s work on upcoming trades)


    Trades

    Gay for #4, Ben Gordon, 2014 Pistons pick (top 8 protected)
    Bargnani and Gray for Biedrins, Jefferson, #13, 2014 pick from GSW (three team deal, Marion to GSW)
    DeRozan and Lowry for #14, Hayward, Williams, 2014 pick from Utah


    Draft

    2013
    #4: Bennett
    #13: Schroeder
    #14: Adetokunbo (Euro stash for 2 seasons in ACB)

    2014
    Raps own pick
    Detroit (top 8 protected '14, top 1 '15, unprotected 2016)
    GSW
    Utah


    Free Agents
    Veteran free agent PG with full or partial MLE (Mo Williams, Darren Collison, Beno Udrih)
    Minimum 3rd string PG


    New 2013-14 roster

    PG: (Vet), Schroeder, (min)
    SG: Fields, Ross, Gordon
    SF: Hayward, Jefferson, Williams
    PF: Amir, Bennett, Acy
    C: Jonas, Biedrins


    The biggest problem (besides reality) is the total salary is $75.6M which puts them about $4M over the projected luxury tax of $71.6M. However, if MLSE are serious about being willing to pay the tax if it makes the team better, getting 3 2013 draft picks and 3 extra 2014 draft picks would be a good way to put their money where their mouth is. Also, the repeater tax does not kick in until a team has been a tax payer for 3 of 4 seasons. The next time the Raptors could possibly be a tax team would be 2016-17 when JV and (possibly) Ross would be up for extensions.

    One roster space is left over for flexibility in 2013-14.

    What I like about the roster is you have 3 young, solid veterans in Hayward, Fields, and Amir. They are complimentary professional role players who can grow with the team. Hayward would be a restricted free agent after 2013 but Raps would have right to match any contract.

    The luxury tax would certainly not be a problem in 2013-2014. Gordon, Jefferson, Williams, and Biedrins would all be expiring with $41M coming off the books. 2013-2014 cap situation would be about $32M plus another $12M in possible 2014 rookie deals plus Hayward extension. The goal would be to keep the payroll around $50M so the Raps can enter the 2014-2015 season able to facilitate financial trades much like the Cavs did this past year.

    The 2014 draft looks extremely promising at PG, SF, and PF. The hope is a franchise talent (*gasp* or two!) is found in this draft.

    Come 2015-2016 season, the Raptors roster would hopefully be full of promising rookie contract talent with veteran role players like Amir, Fields, and Hayward rounding out the 2nd string and in their prime. There would be all sorts of possibilities with trades and free agency or if the whole "build through the draft" thing worked out, extensions would start being signed.


    **I always find these types of ideas fun because of the unknown with the draft. The danger of the unknown, though, is no one ever thinks about drafting a bust (either through injury, lacking NBA talent, disinterest after getting paid, poor fit). Everyone dreams of picking the LeBron James but do not consider the possibility of getting a Michael Beasley or Adam Morrison. If a bust occurs, all these grand dreams of greatness end up.... well, like the last 5 years and 13 of 18.**
    I'd be ecstatic if we could get all that for Rudy Gay. The Bobcats already have MKG but he'd probably be better coming off the bench (until he develops a bit more) and playing in small ball lineups with Gay at the 4. Taking on Gordon's crap contract is a deal sweetener to get the extra pick. Seems realistic to me.

    As for the Utah trade, I'm not sure Utah would want to swap Hayward with Derozan. I think they'd much rather keep Hayward as their starting SF next to Derozan since Hayward is great from 3 and can spread the floor. I also think Hayward is a better player than Derozan, so that swap doesn't really seem like a sweetener to get them to throw in picks. The trade still works fine with just Williams for Lowry and DD. But then I feel like we're giving up too much just for two so-so draft picks. What's great is the trade also works with just Lowry for Marvin Williams and the #14 pick (maybe get a 2nd rounder as well). I think that makes the most sense for both sides. Then we could use DD in a different deal.

    How about DD and Kleiza to OKC for Perkins, Perry Jones, our pick back this year, and OKC's first round pick next year? I think that makes sense for both sides. We get a veteran backup C, a young player with loads of potential in Perry, as well as 2 more draft picks. OKC gets their new starting SG and an expiring contract instead of Perkins bloated deal. I don't see a ton of playing time being available for Perry anytime soon in OKC, and that's what he'll need if he is ever going to going to develop, so Toronto will be a much better situation for him. Since we're getting the #12 pick in this years draft from this trade, perhaps change the pick acquired in the Lowry deal to Utah's 2014 first rounder.

    I can't get this trade to work in the trade checker (Bargnani and Gray for Biedrins, Jefferson, #13, 2014 pick from GSW (three team deal, Marion to GSW)). How about just Bargs for Biedrins and GSW 2014 first round pick? I just don't see us parlaying Bargs into 2 first round draft picks, even taking back some bad salaries (Bargs is a bad salary too).

    Then we'd have the following picks:
    2013: #4, and #12
    2014: Our pick, GSW Pick, Utah's pick, Detroit's Pick (top 8 protected)

    Players sent out:
    Bargnani, Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Kleiza

    Players coming in:
    Marvin Williams, Perkins, Biedrins, Gordon, Perry Jones

    Expected Lineup:
    PG: MCW (#12 pick), FA, Gordon (part time)
    SG: Ross, Fields (part time), Gordon (part time)
    SF: Marvin Williams, Perry Jones, Fields (part time)
    PF: Anthony Bennett (#4 Pick), Amir, Acy
    C: JV, Gray, Perkins, Biedrins

    Leaves us a little heavy on the frontcourt, but Biedrins is garbage and will just sit on the bench anyways. That is a team that will grow but not win many games, which will be perfect to get ready for the 2014 draft when we put in the finishing pieces of the rebuild.

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  15. #31
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure teams are going to be giving up picks for next years draft tho.
    In order to get them, you have to be willing to eat poison.

    The crazy and expensive idea I had, that I didn't include, was trading Kleiza for Michael Beasley and Phoenix's 2014 first-rounder, and then buying Beasley out of his deal. Expensive as all get out - like, it costs us a net $14 million - but is it worth it for a 2014 first-round pick which likely goes top six? I'd do it in a second. Would Phoenix give up a pick to get rid of $18 million of Beasley and Kleiza's $4M expiring as a later trade chip? I don't know.

  16. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    if the cavs are interested in granny danger, maybe they would take a gay for tt kind of thing
    I found this funny as hell haha. I can't stop laughing
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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  18. #33
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Opportunity Knocks

    Chris Paul and Dwight Howard have been in consistent contact recently about the possibility of becoming teammates next season, according to league sources.

    Paul and Howard will be the biggest free agents on the market this summer, and their desire is to play together, the sources said.

    "They would love to play together if somebody can make it happen," one of the sources said.
    The preference for both players would be to play together for the Clippers, according to the sources. Because the Clippers don't have enough cap room to sign Howard as a free agent, it would take a sign-and-trade deal with the Lakers to make it happen.
    everybody is an option at this point.
    Source: ESPN.com


    Don't even think about them coming here but the Raptors could be a dance partner to help get the details worked out for a team desperate to acquire these guys and in doing so obtain draft picks and/or prospects.

    From the Lakers, these players interest me:
    • Jordan Hill
    • Earl Clark(S&T)


    From the Clippers, these players interest me:
    • DeAndre Jordan
    • Eric Bledsoe
    • Ronny Turiaf(S&T)


    And the wild card, from the Hawks, these players interest me:
    • Al Horford
    • Louis Williams
    • Jeff Teague(S&T)
    • DeShawn Stevenson


    The Lakers or Hawks may be interested in Bargnani, DeRozan and Gay. On draft night, 2008, the Hawks were rumored to be interested in drafting Bargnani if he fell to them. It didn't happen. DeRozan trains with Kobe sometimes in the off-season. Gay could take pressure off Kobe now that he's getting near the end of his career. On the flip side, the Hawks may lose Josh Smith and so Gay could interest them.

    These are the conversations Ujiri needs to butt into; capitalizing on teams desperate to land superstars and capitalizing on teams desperate to show their fans they didn't walk away empty handed.

  19. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    I believe you meant "Clippers" in the second group listed.


    D'Andre Jordan must be pissed at CP if there is any substance to this. This is like deja vu pre cba.

  20. #35
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    In order to get them, you have to be willing to eat poison.

    The crazy and expensive idea I had, that I didn't include, was trading Kleiza for Michael Beasley and Phoenix's 2014 first-rounder, and then buying Beasley out of his deal. Expensive as all get out - like, it costs us a net $14 million - but is it worth it for a 2014 first-round pick which likely goes top six? I'd do it in a second. Would Phoenix give up a pick to get rid of $18 million of Beasley and Kleiza's $4M expiring as a later trade chip? I don't know.
    No, they wouldn't.

  21. #36
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: ESPN.com


    Don't even think about them coming here but the Raptors could be a dance partner to help get the details worked out for a team desperate to acquire these guys and in doing so obtain draft picks and/or prospects.

    From the Lakers, these players interest me:
    • Jordan Hill
    • Earl Clark(S&T)


    From the Clippers, these players interest me:
    • DeAndre Jordan
    • Eric Bledsoe
    • Ronny Turiaf(S&T)


    And the wild card, from the Hawks, these players interest me:
    • Al Horford
    • Louis Williams
    • Jeff Teague(S&T)
    • DeShawn Stevenson


    The Lakers or Hawks may be interested in Bargnani, DeRozan and Gay. On draft night, 2008, the Hawks were rumored to be interested in drafting Bargnani if he fell to them. It didn't happen. DeRozan trains with Kobe sometimes in the off-season. Gay could take pressure off Kobe now that he's getting near the end of his career. On the flip side, the Hawks may lose Josh Smith and so Gay could interest them.

    These are the conversations Ujiri needs to butt into; capitalizing on teams desperate to land superstars and capitalizing on teams desperate to show their fans they didn't walk away empty handed.
    That is one approach.

    Another would be to help teams looking to clear space so they can take away the leverage LAC or LAL might have in refusing to negotiate a sign and trade (each can still offer $30M more than any other team).

    Houston and Dallas would be the teams to work with their.

    The Raptors would not be able to take on salary outright but they could become a dumping ground for larger contracts.

    The max salary is likely to be around $16.5M for Howard and Paul next season. See here for explanation.

    Looking at Dallas if they lost Marion, Cunningham, and possibly Carter while renouncing Roddy/Collison and declining James/Akognum, the Mavs could sign both.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  22. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    I feel like there could be big money in putting together an exclusive forum which is open only to NBA players. There could be threads like "Who wants to go to the Clips?" or "How to grab a big payday then bow out of town" etc.

  23. #38
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    Why on earth would you sign a backup PG and 3rd string PG, neither of whom is young, to multi-year deals?

    And people want to criticize BC... ***.

  24. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I feel like there could be big money in putting together an exclusive forum which is open only to NBA players. There could be threads like "Who wants to go to the Clips?" or "How to grab a big payday then bow out of town" etc.
    Fred jones has started something similar: playerpopulation.com

  25. #40
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is one approach.

    Another would be to help teams looking to clear space so they can take away the leverage LAC or LAL might have in refusing to negotiate a sign and trade (each can still offer $30M more than any other team).

    Houston and Dallas would be the teams to work with their.

    The Raptors would not be able to take on salary outright but they could become a dumping ground for larger contracts.

    The max salary is likely to be around $16.5M for Howard and Paul next season. See here for explanation.

    Looking at Dallas if they lost Marion, Cunningham, and possibly Carter while renouncing Roddy/Collison and declining James/Akognum, the Mavs could sign both.
    I'm down for the Mavs taking a dump on the Raptors payroll if the Raptors get long term beneficial assets(ie: lots of draft picks, young prospects...) as part of the agreement. I'm down for anything method that puts the Raptors ahead while not compromising the new mission statement.

    However, I'd much rather see long term pieces come back this way that aren't question marks. Jordan, Hill, Bledsoe, etc. these are guys who could be good long term pieces.

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