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Thread: Colangelo's Acquisition of Gay..

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Default Colangelo's Acquisition of Gay..

    NOte: This is not a rudy gay thread. I am not completely daft and would put it in the thread aptly-titled thread "Everything Gay", if it was.

    Maybe, I am late to the party and this has long been discussed and over with. But, is anybody else curios as to what the intention of acquiring Gay was?

    I mean there is the obvious reason of Colangelo needing to make a splash to try and save his ass. But, I somehow have this feeling that there was more to it. Yes, Colangelo fucked shit up, but he's a smart dude and with him sticking around I feel shows he is genuinely committed to seeing this thing through in some capacity. Maybe, I am wrong about that and he just doesn't like being unemployed. But, in any case, I'm curious as to what his plan was and if Gay was just the start of something..?

    Now, obviously with Colangelo no longer GM this becomes irrelevant and so, I have no reason to be posting this. However, I'm wondering if Ujiri, given he seems like a smart guy and his relationship with Colangelo (knowing him better than any of us), shares my curiosity..I mean at the end of the day, he's got his plan and he's gonna do his own thing. But, if I were Ujiri, I would want to know what the guy before me has left me with and what he was thinking and with the guy still there..

    I don't know. Maybe, that is crazy talk. I am writing this at nearly 1 am and I'm quite tired. So, forgive me if that is so.
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    No. I think you have a point. Trading for Rudy, for Ed Davis is the complete opposite of what a rebuilding team would do if they were actually rebuilding. Best guess Colangelo saw Gay as the piece that would get the Raptors into the playoffs. At some point Colangelo became a short-sighted GM whose only goal was to make the playoffs. Not sure if that was fully on him, or pressure placed on him by the board, but trading for Gay seems short sighted to me.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I viewed it as an opportunistic trade, to acquire the best wing the team has had since VC, filling the most glaring hole the team has had for the past number of years (SF). BC was able to turn 3 redundant, somewhat "useless" assets into a near all-star cliber player; Calderon was a 30+ expiring contract, Davis was a 3rd string player who was going to be looking for a big payday in a couple years and the pick was the lower of 2 2nd round picks in the 2014 draft. Even though Gay is widely thought to be overpaid, the trade only added about $3M additional salary to the team's total, without pushing them into luxury tax.

    For me, the bigger question was why did BC give DeRozan a $9.5M contract so soon, if he was actively pursuing Gay, especially on the heels of drafting Ross and overpaying for Fields? It's more a question of why commit so heavily to the wing positions, when there are so many other holes on the roster? I get the strategy of going after Gay, even being $3-5M overpaid, but not together with the other roster moves that were made. It doesn't add up as on overall team strategy.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I think the Rudy Gay trade was a combination of factors that worked in unison. But if I can give it a title it would be 'desperation for the accelerated rebuild to work'.

    Its definetely a trade that I could see BC making in the offseason as its right in his wheelhouse (trade players who are not 'his guys' for a name) and fit the 'accelerated rebuild' moniker.

    But it made alot less sense at the time it happened because of how slim the Raptors playoff chances were and how it would tie up the team's options going forward. And this is where I think it became a 'secure my job' move.

    And maybe it almost worked - because what I don't understand is why MLSE let it happen. At that point they must have been at the very least unsure about where they were going with BC, so why allow such a big move? Did BC convince them that this deal would put them into the playoffs next season, and they'd therefore pick up his extension? Thats something that sort of makes sense to me. Allowing a multimillion dollar deal, that ties up the teams finances and options for the next few years, with a GM that you are either unsure about or could be a lame duck does not. Then it was only when Tim L was hired (and I'm assuming voted against retaining BC) that they changed course.

    Even though Gay is widely thought to be overpaid, the trade only added about $3M additional salary to the team's total, without pushing them into luxury tax.
    While I couldn't disagree more with calling Jose and Davis 'somewhat useless assets', the quote above is looking through a very small lens. It only added a few mil in salary to the final third of the 2012/13 season, but by that point the season and the team's salary was almost irrelevant anyways. Long term it added 10s of millions, put Toronto well over the salary cap and pushed Toronto right to the brink (and perhaps over) the luxury tax. Which was always the biggest issue with the deal in the first place

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I think the Rudy Gay trade was a combination of factors that worked in unison. But if I can give it a title it would be 'desperation for the accelerated rebuild to work'.

    Its definetely a trade that I could see BC making in the offseason as its right in his wheelhouse (trade players who are not 'his guys' for a name) and fit the 'accelerated rebuild' moniker.

    But it made alot less sense at the time it happened because of how slim the Raptors playoff chances were and how it would tie up the team's options going forward. And this is where I think it became a 'secure my job' move.

    And maybe it almost worked - because what I don't understand is why MLSE let it happen. At that point they must have been at the very least unsure about where they were going with BC, so why allow such a big move? Did BC convince them that this deal would put them into the playoffs next season, and they'd therefore pick up his extension? Thats something that sort of makes sense to me. Allowing a multimillion dollar deal, that ties up the teams finances and options for the next few years, with a GM that you are either unsure about or could be a lame duck does not. Then it was only when Tim L was hired (and I'm assuming voted against retaining BC) that they changed course.



    While I couldn't disagree more with calling Jose and Davis 'somewhat useless assets', the quote above is looking through a very small lens. It only added a few mil in salary to the final third of the 2012/13 season, but by that point the season and the team's salary was almost irrelevant anyways. Long term it added 10s of millions, put Toronto well over the salary cap and pushed Toronto right to the brink (and perhaps over) the luxury tax. Which was always the biggest issue with the deal in the first place

    What would fetch more in a subsequent trade:

    1) If Raps let Jose expire and Davis + 2nd rd alone?

    or

    2) Gay?



    Regardless of whether or not Gay remains a Raptor moving forward, I think he has more value than Davis + 2nd rd pick despite his contract. I don't think Jose was coming back unless the Raptors overpaid and then they end up with the same situation they currently find themselves with Gay/Fields/DD and the same situation they found themselves with Jose over the last 3 years.


    I guess you could make the argument of Davis' potential and his continued development but that is an unknown as he approaches a contract year.
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    I think MLSE was leaning towards picking up Colangelo's option year, hence he was allowed to make the trade for Gay. Things started going in a different direction when Leiweke took over as CEO. As he himself said, he(Leiweke) did not agree with many that the team was only a piece away from contention. I'm quite sure that if Leiweke was hired before the Gay trade, the trade would not have happened.
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    BC believes that the current roster COULD be a championship winning team if the right pieces are added. That is not the case in Leiweke and Ujiri's perspective.

    Even though the team is now cash strapped due to the CBA, it's one of his best trades imo.

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    We have been so starved for SF talent since BC has been here, I was happy about it. Seems like people have spent years and years on here talking about trying to get Gerald Wallace, Kirelenko, Batum, Granger, or Rudy ... finally happened. Sorry Jamario Moon, Jason Kapono, James Johnson, Julian Wright, Kleiza, Dominic McGuire, Pietrus - etc.

    If we wanted, we could add 2 more stars of Gay's quality with packages around Demar, Jonas, TRoss, Lowry, Bargs, and more ... but pieces like Jonas have made themselves immovable, in the positive sense ... so a more patient approach is here, which may not fit even with Gay?
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    I don't know if there was anythig else to his plan when BC traded for Gay, but all I can say is if JV can become anything special in the next two years and assert himself as a force in the NBA then Gay's contract could be a valuable peice used to bring in a major talent to play along side of him. If that doesn't work it's still a valuable contract to someone making a run at LeBron and company that summer. I don't think that is what BC was thinking, but it's what I'm now hoping for.

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    I am also confused about the Gay signing when juxtaposed with the Derozan extension, especially because BC has been seen as interested in Gay for awhile.

    Why extend Derozan if you think Rudy is going to be in play (which is a pretty safe assumption as has been in the trade rumours for what, the last 2 years?). Getting back to OP, I think BC was planning on putting together a package of Derozan and Bargs, for whatever he could get, and just keeping the Derozan part of the deal on the QT. I think BC felt like those two combined should be able to get an all star or gay level type player.

    The Roster BC was going for was
    Lowry (who knows who else)
    Fields/Ross or Ross/Fields
    Gay/Fields filler
    Borderline All-star/Amir... (I'm think that BC was hoping to get Pau, Boozer, Amare, or Maybe Kevin Love, not saying i think those deals are possible, just guessing what's in bc's head)
    JV/Big Body (aka gray, rasho, magoire ect.)

    The big question for me is what could BC turn Derozan and Bargs into? And where does that put us? I think Ujiri is in a similar position. As it has been posited in another thread, Bargs is obviously on the table, and a significant number of people on this site think that one of either Gay or DD probably should be moved, and since DD's contract is smaller, than it's probably him.

    All that is to say we could see ujiri try to swing a deal centered around bargs+DD, although I think Ujiri is more likely to try to move them in two separate trades.
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    Maybe BC did have something specific in mind (given "the team is a piece away" position) to add after Gay. Who knows? And is it worth conjecturing? What is quite evident that after Leiweke was given his mandate he went to some pretty knowledgeable people around the league and sought their opinion of this team. No secret, foremost must have been Phil Jackson. No surprise again, the feedback had to be that the team as constructed and cap position amounted to poop. May be included in these discussions was BC's proposed post Gay move/s. Verdict: still poop. Hence the axe.

    My fervent wish now (not original) is that Ujiri pull off a similar type move with Gay as he did with Melo. Melo of course has a higher profile (mostly because of his douchiness)...ok, he is a better scorer but the combination of picks, player/s and cap relief would go a long way in a rebuild or even a retool.

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    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    I wouldn't put it pass me to see Ujiri try to trade Gay.

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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't put it pass me to see Ujiri try to trade Gay.
    I agree.

    I think Ujiri trades Gay and keeps DD. We can get a lot more back from trading Gay than if we traded DD. How much talent/picks would you expect from 9.5 mil per compared to 18 mil per?? Rudy Gay is the type of player that is going to get interest from teams that are close to contention or teams with cap space and need a near all-star player IMO.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    I think Ujiri would likely move Gay over DeRozan.... in all honesty I can see him really being a favorite of Ujiri moving forward and honestly DeMar is hard guy to not like.

    As for the thread getting Gay (LOL) was obviously a move to save his job, the team was doing badly and it was a last ditch effort to get to the playoffs If the team played as hyped to be, they probably wouldnt have made the trade. BC has been after Gay for a while, its one of his dream players, extending DeMar was an insurance move he didnt know Rudy would have been available. extending DeMar wasnt a bad move it was because of the timing because right now he would be a tremendous trade chip, or resign him now.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Moving Gay is a sign that a rebuild is taking place.

    *So many get upset about trading DeMar so I'll just highlight the fact I do not hate the guy, just think he is vastly overpaid*

    If a rebuild is taking place, they should be looking to send DeRozan out as well and roll with Ross. If Ross develops in to anything, great. If he does not, you've saved yourself $30M and hopefully got an asset or two in return for DD.
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    To the point of the thread, did trading for Rudy include considerations that it would lead to trading Demar? Might have been an idea - or maybe BC wanted to see a super athletic wing tandem, give them a chance to play together?

    Rudy would be the one trade that would say "tank", assuming the returns were young players and picks.
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    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    I don't even think Demar is overpaid ... or think he isn't effective, and capable ... I just think he and Rudy is duplicity in skillsets, with Rudy's being a bit higher in many levels.

    SG is also a position of need for many franchises, while we would be fine with Fields, TRoss, and an additional bench vet covering the spot. We could get a PF (or PG) for building, and Demar (and Bargs?) is a package that can return real talent.
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    Colangelo's acquisition of Gay is similar to his chase for Nash the summer before. He wanted a 'name'.

    From a trade perspective, Bryan killed. Davis + 2nd rounder for Gay? When most were going to include one of Amir/DeMar and a future first as well? Gay is vastly overpaid, but he's still very talented. If Ujiri wants to flip him I'm sure he would get a haul that would be better than Davis and a 2nd rounder and from that point of view it was a really good investment.

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    I agree with Matt that the trade was a net gain in value, particularly over an expiring Calderon. I also think it's worth having the conversation with Gay and see if he'd be open to a contract extension at a lower amount that makes sense for the Raptors. Ujiri is in a better position to play hardball on contract negotiations than BC was. But they could also pitch Gay that he has the choice between being an overpaid veteran who bounces around and is valued only as an expiring contract, or a leader on a contending team that's built for his style of ball; his contract determines which of these two things he is.

    For all the similarities to the Melo situation, the one big difference is that Melo made it clear that he wanted to be in a big market, and wanted a max contract. Gay's contract is bigger than what he's worth right now and I hate that $19.3m player option, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the case if Gay wants to be a part of this team going forward.

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I agree with Matt that the trade was a net gain in value, particularly over an expiring Calderon. I also think it's worth having the conversation with Gay and see if he'd be open to a contract extension at a lower amount that makes sense for the Raptors. Ujiri is in a better position to play hardball on contract negotiations than BC was. But they could also pitch Gay that he has the choice between being an overpaid veteran who bounces around and is valued only as an expiring contract, or a leader on a contending team that's built for his style of ball; his contract determines which of these two things he is.

    For all the similarities to the Melo situation, the one big difference is that Melo made it clear that he wanted to be in a big market, and wanted a max contract. Gay's contract is bigger than what he's worth right now and I hate that $19.3m player option, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the case if Gay wants to be a part of this team going forward.
    To me, this is the only way the trade makes sense in terms of long-term building. Maybe Colangelo was pretty confident that despite Gay's ridiculously overprice contract, it'll be the only one he ever gets. Can they keep him at a smaller rate beyond that? He's a solid SF, but certainly not worth the current price. If he wants to stay, and it makes sense from a team-building perspective, hopefully he takes a sensible salary.

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