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Thread: Bring In Jason Kidd As A Consultant

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Bring In Jason Kidd As A Consultant

    Jason Kidd, one of the greatest point guards to play in the N.B.A., announced his retirement Monday, two weeks after a disappointing end to his first season with the Knicks.
    NYTIMES.com

    First of all, wow, what a career. Glad I had the privilege to watch one of the greatest players of all-time from start to finish.

    Ujiri should now pick up the phone and ask Jason if he would be interested in working with the guards and wings during the summer and sometimes during the winter. He could teach them perimeter defense, strategy, even some of the tricks that he was successful using. These are the kinds of opportunities the Raptors needs to entertain.

    Most these fierce competitors have a hard time letting go of the game and now is the time to capitalize or at least get the idea out there to Kidd.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I'd rather go after Grant Hill. Kidd was a great player but seemed unprofessional at times. Hill on the other hand has always been a class act.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    It's funny you mention that, since I thought that Grant Hill would be a great guy for Ross to model his game after. When he first entered the league he was a great cutter, good 3pt shooter and played fantastic man/team defense. He also just announced his retirement, after sharing co-ROY honours with Kidd in 1995! Bringing them both in to mentor the wings (Hill) and PGs (Kidd) would be a great idea... I'd be willing to bet they both land somewhere doing just that.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I've never been overly convinced that hiring former greats to be coaches/execs etc. is the way to go. Not saying they can't do it (Larry Bird and obvious example), but most greats had an edge over other players that are tough (and at times maybe impossible) to teach.

    Jason Kidd was a big and very strong guard. Thats gave him a huge edge offensively and defensively. Kidd also made his name as a passer, because of his great court vision. I'm not convinced thats a teachable skill either.

    That said, I also don't doubt his bball IQ and experience and thats probably a great asset.

    It seems rather rare when a great player can teach their great talent to someone else. If this team had someone who actually played a game like Jason Kidd it might make sense (and a reasonable argument could be made for Lowry - but I think there games are quite different, just their stats are similar). It was like when Orlando was using Patrick Ewing to train Dwight Howard... never made alot of sense to me. Two players with totally different games, one trying to teach the other something they have never showed a knack for.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I'm not saying hire him as a coach or executive. I'm saying hire him as a consultant to work with the guys occasionally (ie: small contracts comprising of multiple days to come in, analyze and give advice).

    Coaches can only deliver so much. The guys who were in the trenches, and in the trenches during modern basketball times, have things they can share you can't get on a white board based on text book fundamentals.

    I'm also not suggesting that he "teach his talent" but instead "teach his experience". Kidd has been out of his prime for years now but still played at a high level. How? Because of what's between his two ears.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    I agree with Craiger, natural phenoms don't make good coaches, it's the guys that struggled to succeed despite their lack of size, athleticism and talent that make the best coaches because they learned to level the playing field through their smarts.

    All that said I think both Kidd and Hill will take a couple years away from the game, maybe show up on ABC or TNT from time to time and then go into coaching (if they even want to) but I rarely remember players of their caliber and age jump directly back into the game after retiring.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I think you both are confusing the term "consultant" with "coach". A consultant is someone who comes into an organization, completes a specific objective and then leaves. A coach is someone who is under contract and is an internal, "permanent" employee.


    For example: "Jason, we'd like you to come in for a few days and work with DeMar and Terrence on their perimeter defense. We'll pay you $xxx/day and cover all your travel and accommodations".


    Now try to explain to me how that is a bad idea?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I've never been overly convinced that hiring former greats to be coaches/execs etc. is the way to go. Not saying they can't do it (Larry Bird and obvious example), but most greats had an edge over other players that are tough (and at times maybe impossible) to teach.

    Jason Kidd was a big and very strong guard. Thats gave him a huge edge offensively and defensively. Kidd also made his name as a passer, because of his great court vision. I'm not convinced thats a teachable skill either.

    That said, I also don't doubt his bball IQ and experience and thats probably a great asset.

    It seems rather rare when a great player can teach their great talent to someone else. If this team had someone who actually played a game like Jason Kidd it might make sense (and a reasonable argument could be made for Lowry - but I think there games are quite different, just their stats are similar). It was like when Orlando was using Patrick Ewing to train Dwight Howard... never made alot of sense to me. Two players with totally different games, one trying to teach the other something they have never showed a knack for.
    What? Really? I thought in terms of that, Ewing's game is one of the better old centres for Howard to model his game after. He wasn't exactly a finesse player. He was a power player with good athleticism who mostly finished around the basket.

    And I always had a different view. I want the guy teaching my players to be strong at their weaknesses. If I had a guy like Howard who was a raw athlete, I would probably have gotten him to Olajuwon sooner, or maybe a more complete pick'n'roll player like Karl Malone, who might be able to pound home the value of shooting (both jumpers and FTs) to him. I would say McHale would obviously be a great choice too, but he always seemed to have a job somewhere. I wouldn't use Ewing because Ewing wouldn't have enough new skills to teach him.

    I also wouldn't have invested in Jameer Nelson. Does he miss obvious passes because he's a shitty PG? Or because he's the size of an oompa-loompa compared to the other guys out there? Honestly, if I were a Magic fan for those years, my drinking game would be taking a shot/chugging a beer every time Jameer Nelson didn't even notice an open Howard at the basket.

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    I'd rather take Hill. Might be just me but I don't like the idea of a wife beater being a member of a team I cheer for.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I think you both are confusing the term "consultant" with "coach". A consultant is someone who comes into an organization, completes a specific objective and then leaves. A coach is someone who is under contract and is an internal, "permanent" employee.


    For example: "Jason, we'd like you to come in for a few days and work with DeMar and Terrence on their perimeter defense. We'll pay you $xxx/day and cover all your travel and accommodations".


    Now try to explain to me how that is a bad idea?

    tomato - toematoe

    I used 'coach/exec etc' as a broad descriptor.

    I think the idea is equally as good as I thought it was before if its called 'consulting' - which is to say I never said it was bad.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I think you both are confusing the term "consultant" with "coach". A consultant is someone who comes into an organization, completes a specific objective and then leaves. A coach is someone who is under contract and is an internal, "permanent" employee.


    For example: "Jason, we'd like you to come in for a few days and work with DeMar and Terrence on their perimeter defense. We'll pay you $xxx/day and cover all your travel and accommodations".


    Now try to explain to me how that is a bad idea?
    Hakeem and Kidd should start a consulting business - as what you describe for Kidd is essentially what Hakeem does.

    I can see it now:

    Triple Double Dream Consulting, Inc.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Hakeem and Kidd should start a consulting business - as what you describe for Kidd is essentially what Hakeem does.

    I can see it now:

    Triple Double Dream Consulting, Inc.
    [Insert joke about avoiding spousal abuse charges here....]
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    On Kidd...I obviously don't know him personally, but I know the divorce and domestic abuse stories. And the drunk driving stories. He seems like a dickbag.

    Would he be a good addition to the staff in some way? I think if being a dickbag didn't get in his way, or, you know, driving his drunk ass into a tree and killing himself, yes, he could. I think he has very valuable skills to teach guys, not just Lowry. Maybe Casey didn't handle things well, but the message was never wrong. Lowry needs to play a game his teammates respect, and not resent. He has always needed to do this, and run things in a way that keeps everyone involved and on the same page. IT's what his coaches have always tried to get from him, and what makes him wear out his welcome every time. Maybe if a guy like Kidd were here last year, the tug of war isn't so drawn out between Casey and Lowry. Maybe Lowry doesn't need a random conversation with Billups telling him "why are you risking fucking this up?"

    And again, it's not like other guys can't use some advice, especially with guard skills and reading the game.

    Also, part of this problem with Lowry was that this team has no damn veterans. Players need to hold each other accountable as much as the coach has to do it, and there are no voices on this team that really command a room's respect. They need one or two guys who actually play in the top 8-9 to be veterans with some winning experience (say at least winning some playoffs series).

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    You can attack his character off the court but on the court Kidd has always been highly respected and loved by his teammates and if you want to throw every person who's driven drunk under a bus then you'd have a pretty big pile under that bus.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I used 'coach/exec etc' as a broad descriptor.
    So are summer personal conditioning trainers coaches/executives? I think there is a clear distinction here between consultant/contractor(external) and coach/executive(internal). Kidd wouldn't be a "Raptor", he would essentially be "Jason Kidd Inc.", coming in for a few days to provide training. There is a big difference here.

    And you pretty much did say it was a bad idea, didn't you? Most of what I read was criticism on why it wouldn't work.

    And there are lots of big strong NBA ballers who become big, strong spectators/NBA fans. You're selling Kidd short. He was highly intelligent and has a lot to share if he so chooses to do that with some of his free time..

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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    You can attack his character off the court but on the court Kidd has always been highly respected and loved by his teammates and if you want to throw every person who's driven drunk under a bus then you'd have a pretty big pile under that bus.
    It still might be a smaller pile than the people injured or killed by drunk drivers.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So are summer personal conditioning trainers coaches/executives? I think there is a clear distinction here between consultant/contractor(external) and coach/executive(internal). Kidd wouldn't be a "Raptor", he would essentially be "Jason Kidd Inc.", coming in for a few days to provide training. There is a big difference here.

    And you pretty much did say it was a bad idea, didn't you? Most of what I read was criticism on why it wouldn't work.

    And there are lots of big strong NBA ballers who become big, strong spectators/NBA fans. You're selling Kidd short. He was highly intelligent and has a lot to share if he so chooses to do that with some of his free time..
    Their title is irrelevant, its the function I was speaking of - teaching, helping, working with etc.

    I don't know how I'm 'selling Kidd short' seeing how I did nothing but compliment him.

    You like the idea, great. I'm not sold on it (which does not mean I think its 'bad') and how effective it is.

    Anyways, done speaking about it. Just my two cents.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    No, you basically said he is who he mostly due to God given talent; he can't teach it. Well, I'm telling you there are lots of great athletes that fail to succeed in the NBA and many who can't even make it to the NBA.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, you basically said he is who he mostly due to God given talent; he can't teach it. Well, I'm telling you there are lots of great athletes that fail to succeed in the NBA and many who can't even make it to the NBA.


    Not saying they can't do it
    That said, I also don't doubt his bball IQ and experience and thats probably a great asset.

  23. #20
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Let's dance:

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I've never been overly convinced that hiring former greats to be coaches/execs etc. is the way to go.
    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    It seems rather rare when a great player can teach their great talent to someone else. If this team had someone who actually played a game like Jason Kidd it might make sense (and a reasonable argument could be made for Lowry - but I think there games are quite different, just their stats are similar). It was like when Orlando was using Patrick Ewing to train Dwight Howard... never made alot of sense to me. Two players with totally different games, one trying to teach the other something they have never showed a knack for.

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